Professional appointments

[RiverAux]

I like the idea, but this would essentially eliminate a lot of the appointments which would make it hard to get approved. 

Although I've got no data to back this up, I suspect the most common special appointment we have is for pilots, and this would essentially eliminate the appointment for private pilots (2nd Lt) and Instrument pilots (1st Lt), and make it almost meaningless for CFIs as they would have to do everything else to get Captain but the time in grade. 

[Hawk200]

I like the idea, but this would essentially eliminate a lot of the appointments which would make it hard to get approved. 

Although I've got no data to back this up, I suspect the most common special appointment we have is for pilots, and this would essentially eliminate the appointment for private pilots (2nd Lt) and Instrument pilots (1st Lt), and make it almost meaningless for CFIs as they would have to do everything else to get Captain but the time in grade.

Good point. I still think that maybe it shouldn't be awarded immediately. Maybe a requirement to achieve Technician in a specialty track. For those advanced promotions involving a specific track (Medical, AE, Finance, etc.), the individual would be required to advance in that specific track for advanced and subsequent promotions.

As for the time, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to hold off the 2LT promotion til a year. A member could be qualified in almost any specialty track by then. You'd also never have worry about promoting someone and then have them bail.

The individual I've mentioned received both the initial promotion to Captain, and the subsequent promotion to Major at a year with no advancement in the specialty track (AE). A system like above would have eliminated that. Now there is a person who basically received a free ticket to Major with no real work invested.

I know the person mentioning it feels a bit put off by the fact that it took them a little over six years to make Major, and the individual in question had it in about 14 months. I can understand the feeling, and have been trying to avoid entertaining the same thought  (although I honestly don't think anyone could fault a person for it.)

So, considering all the above, what would any of you folks do if you were in a position to do something about it?

[Eclipse]

...and make it almost meaningless for CFIs as they would have to do everything else to get Captain but the time in grade.

So?

Completing Level II is not that difficult - they'd be eligible for Captain right around the time they can actually
be of use to CAP, and fully invested.

This would cut the organic time to Captain in about 1/2, and give us a lot less "seat filler" Captains, as to get the second bar you'd have to do something besides fly.  Those not interested in 2 bars can fly all they want with a gold or a silver bar, which is really where pilots who don't want to do anything but fly really belong anyway.

[jimmydeanno]

Professional Appointments always seemed odd to me.

I can understand the rational behind a legislative appointment, with the impression that senators, etc would have interacting with a 2d Lt.  They're used to talking to 0-5+...

I can also understand the rational behind the prior military appointments.

However, I don't understand how the rest of the discussions go.

"I see you're a pilot, would you be interested in joining Civil Air Patrol?"

"Nah."

"I'll make you a Captain."

"Oh, OK."

[Eclipse]

I'd just as soon the special appointments simply went away, the serve zero purpose in CAP, but cause a lot of problems.

Giving a CFI the grade of Captain implies he knows "something" special.  He doesn't.

A new member-CFI walking in the door know lots about airplanes and nothing about CAP.  The first 6 months  to 1 year the former isn't going to be much use versus the latter.

The same goes for prior military - just because you can lead people who are consistently trained, and paid to obey your orders, doesn't mean you can lead volunteers who will treat your directives as suggestions.  Nor does it give you a clue what 60-1 or 52-16 are.

Then there's this nonsense that legislatures, other military, and similar will somehow respect the person more because they are "x" grade, since they are "used to dealing with that level".  If the person you're dealing with actually has that issue, they don't understand CAP.  In a CAP context, the grade buys yo about 5 minutes, after which its all about execution (or lack thereof).

Drop the special appointments and let all of us play on a level field, then at least the grade will have the weight of knowledge, experience, and participation meaningful to CAP.

[RiverAux]

...and make it almost meaningless for CFIs as they would have to do everything else to get Captain but the time in grade.

So?

Completing Level II is not that difficult - they'd be eligible for Captain right around the time they can actually
be of use to CAP, and fully invested.

That was my point.  If they don't get the special appiontment until completing level 2 that makes it almost not worth having at all if the special appointment is for Capt. rank and worthless for those below that.

I personally think that there should not be any special appointments for any reason at all (including current or former military officers), and was just pointing out that such a limitation would be viewed as very extreme and therefore would have no chance of being supported. 

[heliodoc]

CAP rank and grade structure is absolutely meaningless, anyway

So if CAP is to abolish the special appointments and all this sourness towards former and current military members...

Get rid of CAP and grade... because in reality it means even less than military rank and structure and then what meaning would CAP have without its ranks, grade, and "chain of command?"

It would then really only be a search and recovery volunteer organization with all its uniform variants

[Eclipse]

... and all this sourness towards former and current military members...

No one ever said anything bout being "sour towards the military..."

[Thrashed]

Professional Appointments are slightly different than promotion based on "Mission Skills".  Mission skills is how pilots are advanced ahead.  What are the three CAP missions?  Do you think a CFI could contribute to any of them?  The answer is "yes" to all three, but any one is enough. 

See CAPR35-5 for details

Section D: Mission Related Skills.  Applies to pilots, instructors, maintenance, and radio.

Section E: Professional Appointments.  Applies to chaplins, finance, health service, legal, and educators. 

Should an accountant advance to Captain and not a CFI or ATP?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

It would then really only be a search and recovery volunteer organization with all its uniform variants

Which we are as it is anyway, with of course the Cadet members.

I wouldn't say no to trimming-down some of the uniforms; i.e., our uniforms being:

Dress: Blue CSU
Work/Field: Blue BDU (why do we have to be camouflaged?)/blue utility jumpsuit
Flying: Blue NOMEX flight suit, blue utility jumpsuit

I think that would also solve some of the issues of distinguishing us from the Air Force, but nobody asked me.

But as far as rank with professional appointments, I don't see why a pilot should get a leg up just for being a pilot (maybe it's because I'm not a pilot!).  I also wouldn't see a problem with increasing TIG for 2nd Lt to one year.

The US Navy Sea Cadets do that; a member has to serve in an unranked position before a year before appointment to Ensign (former NCO's come in as Chief Warrant Officers):

http://libertyagtr5div.org/AboutUs.htm#WhoRWO

My first CAP unit was co-located with an NSCC unit, and it seemed to work well for them.

My own opinion is that professional appointments should be restricted to medical (including nurses, dental and mental health), Chaplains and legal officers, but again nobody asked me.

[SarDragon]

Dress: Blue CSU

Then we'll need an accompanying reg change to allow the fuzzies to wear it.

My own opinion is that professional appointments should be restricted to medical (including nurses, dental and mental health), Chaplains and legal officers, but again nobody asked me.

And I'm of exactly the opposite opinion. In my experience, the Mission Related Skills folks contribute their skills and experience much more on a week-to-week basis than the Professional Appointment folks.

Med folks can't do much med stuff, and the chaplains and legal beagles don't do as much, mostly because of a lack of need (discounting ML duties for the cadets).

YMMV.

[ZigZag911]

I like the idea, but this would essentially eliminate a lot of the appointments which would make it hard to get approved. 

Although I've got no data to back this up, I suspect the most common special appointment we have is for pilots, and this would essentially eliminate the appointment for private pilots (2nd Lt) and Instrument pilots (1st Lt), and make it almost meaningless for CFIs as they would have to do everything else to get Captain but the time in grade.

Perhaps for the special appointments to lieutenant grade we require something related in addition to Level 1, eg, technician rating in appropriate specialty, or completion of CAPF 5 for pilots

[DBlair]

While on this topic, my personal favorite (*rolling eyes*) is the Finance Officer Professional Appointment...

Finance Officers.

Upon successful completion of Level I, the unit commander may initiate a CAPF 2 on qualified finance officers, recommending appointment to an appropriate grade, as outlined below.

(1) First Lieutenant. A financial professional with an associate's degree in accounting and 2 years verified work experience in the accounting profession or a high school diploma and 5 years of verified work experience in the accounting profession.

(2) Captain. A financial professional with a bachelor's degree in accounting and 2 years verified work experience in the accounting profession or a master's degree in accounting, certified public accountant (CPA) or certified management accountant (CMA).

(3) Major. A financial professional with a master's degree in accounting, certified public accountant (CPA) or certified management accountant (CMA) that has served 1 year time-in-grade as a captain may be appointed to the grade of major.

While the other appointments usually involve an advanced degree, the Finance Officer can receive a professional appointment with just a high school diploma or an associate's degree and a bit of work experience?

Not to mention that if they actually have a grad degree and no work experience or are a CPA or CMA, then they can be a Major in a year.

Its interesting that someone with advanced degrees in another field wouldn't get anything and yet someone with just a high school diploma would receive a professional appointment. In my unit, we had a few members with various grad degrees who weren't exactly happy about this.

While I am not a fan of professional appointments in CAP, if we are going to have them, then there needs to be an overhaul of the specifics involved.

[Thrashed]

I don't think it should be required of pilots to fly as CAP pilots for promotion under "mission skills".  Another mission of CAP is aerospace education.  A CFI (or knowledgeable pilot)  could teach cadets and/or seniors and use their skills for that specific mission.  Teachers are promoted due to thier teacher training and experience, why not pilots?

[SarDragon]

While on this topic, my personal favorite (*rolling eyes*) is the Finance Officer Professional Appointment...

Finance Officers.

Upon successful completion of Level I, the unit commander may initiate a CAPF 2 on qualified finance officers, recommending appointment to an appropriate grade, as outlined below.

(1) First Lieutenant. A financial professional with an associate's degree in accounting and 2 years verified work experience in the accounting profession or a high school diploma and 5 years of verified work experience in the accounting profession.

(2) Captain. A financial professional with a bachelor's degree in accounting and 2 years verified work experience in the accounting profession or a master's degree in accounting, certified public accountant (CPA) or certified management accountant (CMA).

(3) Major. A financial professional with a master's degree in accounting, certified public accountant (CPA) or certified management accountant (CMA) that has served 1 year time-in-grade as a captain may be appointed to the grade of major.

While the other appointments usually involve an advanced degree, the Finance Officer can receive a professional appointment with just a high school diploma or an associate's degree and a bit of work experience?

Not to mention that if they actually have a grad degree and no work experience or are a CPA or CMA, then they can be a Major in a year.

Its interesting that someone with advanced degrees in another field wouldn't get anything and yet someone with just a high school diploma would receive a professional appointment. In my unit, we had a few members with various grad degrees who weren't exactly happy about this.

While I am not a fan of professional appointments in CAP, if we are going to have them, then there needs to be an overhaul of the specifics involved.

As my wife discovered, an accounting degree program has some hurdles that many other programs don't have. She bailed from hers when she realized that that she wouldn't be able to finish it within the industry imposed time limit. She was working full time (USN AD, and taking classes nights and weekends, and couldn't take classes fast enough to meet the time requirements. The program had to be completed within 5 years of starting. Whether this is a significant enough factor, coupled with the usefulness to CAP finance, is certainly debatable.

YMMV.