Non-Prior Service to NCO? CAP Major to NCO!?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Putting on stripes is not going to change your views on CAP. There are two types of NCO's and Officer's,productive and non productive.

Define "productive" and "non-productive" objectively, without bringing your own personal standards of what those terms mean...and whether you like the person being judged or not.

That is dangerously close to the Ayn Randian (a person whose philosophies I loathe, detest and hold in contempt) concept of "makers" and "takers."

Eye of the beholder...and commensurate with a member's life circumstances, and open to interpretation on what is "productive" and what is not.  Subjectivity v. objectivity.

A young person in good health is going to, in most circumstances, be more "productive" (openly active) than an older person whose health has declined.

"Productive" can also mean behind-the-scenes.

In my case, I must have done something right as I have a drawer full of Certificates of Appreciation, Letters of Commendation, etc.

Storm Chaser knows [darn] good and well that I tried taking mine up the chain...and didn't even get an answer from the Group CC.

I asked why I "didn't meet necessary criteria."  It came down to one thing: attendance.

To just quote 35-5 and put one's own definition on things is falling into the logical fallacy of the single cause/false dilemma/spurious relationship.

But I'm not just talking about me.  I personally know a lot of other well-qualified people that were denied recognition/advancement based on personal likes and dislikes.

"Exemplary" can have a lot of different facets to it.  To just give it one definition is fallacious.  Would one evaluate someone with a pacemaker in CAP as non-productive because they were physically unable to go on GT missions?  I personally knew one in CAP...who is dead now, but who did not "slip through the cracks" based on a CC's subjective idea of "productivity."

I know that it is not possible for humans to be entirely objective, but I have been in similar positions in private business and other situations in CAP where I had to evaluate people (I spent several years as an IT manager in a university setting, and one of my duties was to evaluate our student assistants).  I did try my level best to just look at what was on paper before me and act on that.  I never tore anyone down.

If that's "getting him started," so be it.  No apologies.  It is equally illogical to say that the regs work all the time, just because they work for some and not for others, based on interpretation.

The only thing I haven't done is name names, because of libel issues, and because it would be "unproductive."

There are grey areas in life, which some in CAP do not seem to acknowledge.

[SMWOG]

Productive: Comes to unit meeting supporting missons onbjectives and goals.

Non-Productive: Comes to unit meeting and complains about mission and. wants to turn orginization. into something that is not based on their personal.feelings.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Productive: Comes to unit meeting supporting missons onbjectives and goals.

Non-Productive: Comes to unit meeting and complains about mission and. wants to turn orginization. into something that is not based on their personal.feelings.

Still a bit too black-and-white...but when I was able, I came to meetings and did my job as Admin Officer, Safety Officer, and former Deputy CC back in the mists of time as best I could, within my limitations.  I did so for almost 20 years.  In fact, I rarely verbalised anything unless I felt like I was copping the shaft and/or had my back to the wall, which happened a lot less than you may think.

At meetings I did a lot more listening and copious note-taking than talking, unless my opinion was asked.

No, I was not able to come to every weekly meeting and/or unit weekend activity, but I only once in my recollection missed without calling in, and that was when I had to take my wife to the ER.

I must have done something right to have got a CommComm and the aforementioned drawerfull of Certificates of Appreciation.

[kwe1009]

Productive: Comes to unit meeting supporting missons onbjectives and goals.

Non-Productive: Comes to unit meeting and complains about mission and. wants to turn orginization. into something that is not based on their personal.feelings.

Sounds about right to me.

Productive: part of the solution.  Looks for ways to help/improve the situation

Non-Productive: part of the problem.  Complains they way things are done is wrong, never tries to fix anything.  Throws their CAP rank around like it is just as important/valuable as military rank.

[JeffDG]

"Exemplary" can have a lot of different facets to it.  To just give it one definition is fallacious.  Would one evaluate someone with a pacemaker in CAP as non-productive because they were physically unable to go on GT missions?  I personally knew one in CAP...who is dead now, but who did not "slip through the cracks" based on a CC's subjective idea of "productivity."
...
There are grey areas in life, which some in CAP do not seem to acknowledge.

No, people do acknowledge it.  These kinds of grey areas are intentional, and in the grey areas lives a concept called "command discretion".  Just because you disagree with how it was exercised doesn't make it wrong.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No, people do acknowledge it.  These kinds of grey areas are intentional, and in the grey areas lives a concept called "command discretion".  Just because you disagree with how it was exercised doesn't make it wrong.

If "command discretion" includes insulting a member openly, then it is not very discretionary.  To borrow an overused phrase, "if you weren't there you won't understand."

Productive: part of the solution.  Looks for ways to help/improve the situation

IF your suggestions to help the situation are not listened to...what then?

Non-Productive: part of the problem.  Complains they way things are done is wrong, never tries to fix anything.  Throws their CAP rank around like it is just as important/valuable as military rank.

I was IN the RealMilitary and know good and well the rank is not the same.  If you think I threw my rank around, you obviously have not read previous posts where I said I was often embarrassed to go on military installations because I did not want military personnel to think I was "trolling for salutes" as so many apocryphal stories about CAP have circulated about.

If I thought rank was the be-all and end-all, I would not have suggested that I rejoin as an SMWOG and work my way up the ladder again.  I would not offer to rejoin as an SMWOG and insist on being in whatever enlisted/NCO tier eventually hashes out.

I had served my TIG, I had all my qualifications and I thought my performance was doing well within the life circumstances I had.  My former-former commander thought so as well and said he would have sent my promotion up the chain.  However, we had a mandatory change of command and the new guy didn't like me before he was commander, and liked me no less after acceding to the post of CC.

Again, if you weren't there...

How difficult is it to admit that sometimes the system just does not work and is not infallible, and all the "suggestions on how to improve things" just will not change a thing?

Whether anyone wishes to admit it or not, sometimes personalities do come into play, and not all commanders have the best welfare of their charges in mind.

[PHall]

Cyborg, you've been in CAP three times and all three times have ended badly.
You ever think that CAP and you are just not a match?

[kwe1009]

Productive: part of the solution.  Looks for ways to help/improve the situation

IF your suggestions to help the situation are not listened to...what then?

Non-Productive: part of the problem.  Complains they way things are done is wrong, never tries to fix anything.  Throws their CAP rank around like it is just as important/valuable as military rank.

I was IN the RealMilitary and know good and well the rank is not the same.  If you think I threw my rank around, you obviously have not read previous posts where I said I was often embarrassed to go on military installations because I did not want military personnel to think I was "trolling for salutes" as so many apocryphal stories about CAP have circulated about.

If I thought rank was the be-all and end-all, I would not have suggested that I rejoin as an SMWOG and work my way up the ladder again.  I would not offer to rejoin as an SMWOG and insist on being in whatever enlisted/NCO tier eventually hashes out.

I had served my TIG, I had all my qualifications and I thought my performance was doing well within the life circumstances I had.  My former-former commander thought so as well and said he would have sent my promotion up the chain.  However, we had a mandatory change of command and the new guy didn't like me before he was commander, and liked me no less after acceding to the post of CC.

Again, if you weren't there...

How difficult is it to admit that sometimes the system just does not work and is not infallible, and all the "suggestions on how to improve things" just will not change a thing?

Whether anyone wishes to admit it or not, sometimes personalities do come into play, and not all commanders have the best welfare of their charges in mind.

Good for you being in the REAL MILITARY as you put it.  I am still in the military (28 years and counting) but that has zero impact on what I was talking about.  I wasn't aiming my comment at you or anyone else.  I was simply giving my view of what productive and non-productive member is.  I also never even hinted that the system always works.  In fact it doesn't always work for various reasons.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cyborg, you've been in CAP three times and all three times have ended badly.
You ever think that CAP and you are just not a match?

If I hadn't spent six years' in my absolutely-wonderful first squadron, where I was welcomed from Day One, ascended from SMWOG to Captain (and Deputy Commander) with virtually no trouble, ended up with an almost Riker/Picard relationship with my last CC there (also out of CAP now, from my last recollection), had excellent relationships with the previous two CC's, helped him rebuild the unit from a near-disbandment to a solid composite squadron, with a close association with an AFROTC unit at a nearby major university, appointed to ad hoc positions at Wing functions (commanded flightline safety at one airshow, commanded Wing Ops at another), and was given a going-away party when I finally left (only left because of marriage and a move...otherwise I'd still be there, probably), then, yes, I may have thought exactly that.  If I'd had the experience at other subsequent units at my first unit, I never would have joined.  My "we-don't-want-you-here" detector is pretty good - not infallible, but good.  I've relied on it many times to turn down job offers in potentially unhealthy situations, and to leave jobs where I sensed things were going badly.  I haven't always been right, but I have a fairly decent track record.

One thing I learned early on in life, long before CAP, is that if I don't fight for myself, no-one will.

I suppose the mistake I have made regarding CAP the last time I rejoined was to listen to a member and her cadet daughter that I ran into in a bookshop back in '09 who told me that someone with my experience was "really needed" and was very persuasive about it.  I suppose I should have said "thank you for the kind words, but I'm sorry...past experience has proven to me that no, I am not needed or wanted by CAP."  I still had a warm spot for CAP in my heart that this lady and her daughter rekindled...my mistake.

Good for you being in the REAL MILITARY as you put it.  I am still in the military (28 years and counting) but that has zero impact on what I was talking about.  I wasn't aiming my comment at you or anyone else.  I was simply giving my view of what productive and non-productive member is.  I also never even hinted that the system always works.  In fact it doesn't always work for various reasons.

And thank you for your service.  I wish I could have continued mine, but my body had other ideas.

I sincerely apologise for taking you the wrong way.  It is my error, and I own up to it.  I hope you continue your service to CAP without the negative experiences I and others have had.  Godspeed.

[Storm Chaser]

Cyborg, I think one of your problems is that you cling too much to the past. We know all about your almost perfect first squadron (which by the way was probably too small to meet the criteria of a truly successful squadron) and all your subsequent negative experiences, which led you to leave CAP three times. We know the stories because you've told them again and again. It's almost like you want to torture yourself about what you had and couldn't have anymore.

Promotions are not a reward for past performance. That's why we have awards. Promotions are meant to recognize the potential for increased responsibilities based on past and current performance, training, education, experience, skills, and leadership. They should take into account what you've done in the past, what you're doing now, and what you're capable of doing in the future. If you're unable to perform or contribute beyond attending some meetings, odds are no commander is going to recommend you for promotion. The bottom line is you either are "performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended" (emphasis mine) IAW CAPR 35-5, Para. 2-1a(4), or you're not.

And even if you were unlucky enough to have "terrible" squadron commanders who didn't treated you well, you had venues and opportunities to resolve that and chose to quit instead (yes, I know you contacted the group commander, but did you go to the wing commander or higher?). Now, you're done. You're not a member anymore. You need to let it go. How can you be happy if you keep dwelling in the past? Just let it go and move on. Find a hobby or another organization where you can feel accepted and useful; where you can truly make an impact. It doesn't seem CAP is for you. Best of lucks.

[kwe1009]

If you are a member of any organization and are completely happy for even 6 months or more then consider yourself lucky.  There have been many times in my Air Force career that I wanted to walk away because I was tired of the political B.S. and favoritism that existed.  I didn't walk away and it is still there (maybe even more than 10-15 years ago).  We are all human and thus not perfect and prone to make mistakes.  The key it to accept that and work to make things better for everyone with whatever authority you may have in your current position while not poisoning your chance for getting increased authority.  This was a hard lesson for me to learn and stunted my progression within the USAF for a number of years. 

There have been times when I wanted to walk away from CAP because of the way I was treated or how I saw others being treated.  Instead of spending a great deal of time being disruptive or just walking away, I chose to stay the course and work to make changes for the betterment of all.  Unfortunately this also means biting my tongue quite a bit as to not fall out of favor with the current leadership.  A worker bee doesn't have a lot of power to make changes so I need to put in my time and make suggestions to leadership to help steer them in the right direction until it is my turn to steer the ship.  Remember, slow and steady wins the race.

[Holding Pattern]

Alternatively, you could... charter a new squadron...

[SMWOG]

You will never make your current unit great if you keep comparing it to your last one. Secure a great future by living today and not in the past.  Wanting to be reduced in grade and start over is not the answer or control alternate delete for CAP. Retaking. the OBC is not going to change your prespective of the orginization. Reassessing. your irrelevance. to the mission will. I have known many people to leave CAP because they out grew the orginization or the orginization out grew them.  I left
CAP for a few years due to personal issues(loss of home after disaster). My experince left me bitter and angry so I left so that I was not a negative impact on the mission focous. Just remember,CAP is not for everyone. and its ok to leave to take care of number 1._

[Holding Pattern]

I also think I mentioned this before... but the OBC is all available online without login. The only thing logging in would do is let you take the quizzes.