Non-Prior Service to NCO? CAP Major to NCO!?

[Storm Chaser]

I'm not opposed to having CAP NCOs or even providing them with a way to get promoted. But I can't help to feel the way this program has been approached and it's being implemented is more like a solution in search for a problem.

We've created NCO positions with no significant duties or responsibilities, at least none that other current members can't do. We're revamping the Professional Development program for a small sector of the membership which gets to do everything the larger, officer sector does (again, no restrictions on duty assignment except for command). And now we're providing CAP officers with an enticing way to revert to a higher CAP NCO grade for no other reason than increasing the otherwise small number of current CAP NCOs. What are these members going to do that is different from what they were already doing?

I really hope any transfer from CAP officer to CAP NCO is a one time deal. I can already see members going back and forward depending on how the feel at the time and using the opposite track (Officer vs. NCO) PD and experience to justify higher grades on the one they want to pursue at the time. That contributes nothing to the mission, programs, or organization as a whole.

[THRAWN]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

Gee, I'm not sure how having someone with long term experience in a squadron that never gets foisted into a command slot would work. We might have to look to see if anyone has ever done anything like this before! Hopefully we don't lose our Shirt over this...

I think that's entirely possible with or without CAP NCOs

Possible? Yes. Probable? Unlikely. There is some appeal to just being an NCO that doesn't get bothered with UCC and TLC and SLS and SOS and RSC and NSC, just focusing instead on Cadet Programs, AEX, and/or ES.

Or have you never seen upper echelon pressure to rotate people into commander slots?

Nothing says you have to do all of that now. I know plenty of members that have been plenty successful and have done nothing more than Level 1.

[NCRblues]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

Gee, I'm not sure how having someone with long term experience in a squadron that never gets foisted into a command slot would work. We might have to look to see if anyone has ever done anything like this before! Hopefully we don't lose our Shirt over this...

I think that's entirely possible with or without CAP NCOs

Possible? Yes. Probable? Unlikely. There is some appeal to just being an NCO that doesn't get bothered with UCC and TLC and SLS and SOS and RSC and NSC, just focusing instead on Cadet Programs, AEX, and/or ES.

Or have you never seen upper echelon pressure to rotate people into commander slots?

This post makes no sense.

Why would being a CAP NCO prevent you from "being bothered" by very educational courses? Other than UCC, all of those courses I feel are important in the basic grasping and principles of CAP.

In my unit, want to play CP officer/NCO? Great, the next TLC course is being held at XYZ.

An officer or NCO who is so pompous as to think continuing education isn't necessary is not a leader at all.

[Holding Pattern]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

Gee, I'm not sure how having someone with long term experience in a squadron that never gets foisted into a command slot would work. We might have to look to see if anyone has ever done anything like this before! Hopefully we don't lose our Shirt over this...

I think that's entirely possible with or without CAP NCOs

Possible? Yes. Probable? Unlikely. There is some appeal to just being an NCO that doesn't get bothered with UCC and TLC and SLS and SOS and RSC and NSC, just focusing instead on Cadet Programs, AEX, and/or ES.

Or have you never seen upper echelon pressure to rotate people into commander slots?

This post makes no sense.

Why would being a CAP NCO prevent you from "being bothered" by very educational courses? Other than UCC, all of those courses I feel are important in the basic grasping and principles of CAP.

In my unit, want to play CP officer/NCO? Great, the next TLC course is being held at XYZ.

An officer or NCO who is so pompous as to think continuing education isn't necessary is not a leader at all.

You'll note that there are plenty of other things that can be taught and are taught that I didn't mention in that list... because the things I didn't mention have the virtue of being available locally to me and directly applicable to me.

But if you really want to misread that statement as a declaration of not needing CE... well... RANT TIME!

Every TLC and SLS course in my area has been set on a date that has coincided with a cyberpatriot activity day or competition day. Work with cadets, or be "bothered" with "very educational" courses... that are available... just not in my county...

Let me know when they are all online and not stigmatized for being such. CAPTALK has worked long and hard at convincing me that CAP grades mean nothing besides your PD status, and while I'm sure there will be useful tidbits of information at each of those events, the honest truth is that if there is something so earth shatteringly important that will make me a better CAP member, they should probably publish it and hand me a copy in some form of widely disseminated media. OBC is completely online. The Yaeger study materials and test are completely online. 80% of the reg required FEMA courses are online, and as it turns out, the offline ones are... actually available locally once you inquire!

You want me to be motivated to take more PD courses? OK. Make them available.
(And yes, I've already voiced my concerns on this to my chain of command.) 

In the meantime, I'll get my ops quals signed off and take every educational course available to me. And that is my definition of available, not what some higher echelon thinks is "available."

[Spaceman3750]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

Gee, I'm not sure how having someone with long term experience in a squadron that never gets foisted into a command slot would work. We might have to look to see if anyone has ever done anything like this before! Hopefully we don't lose our Shirt over this...

I think that's entirely possible with or without CAP NCOs

Possible? Yes. Probable? Unlikely. There is some appeal to just being an NCO that doesn't get bothered with UCC and TLC and SLS and SOS and RSC and NSC, just focusing instead on Cadet Programs, AEX, and/or ES.

Or have you never seen upper echelon pressure to rotate people into commander slots?

The goal of those courses, whether realized or not, is to help members do their jobs. I don't see why an NCO would not benefit from such information just because they have a different patch on their sleeves. CAP already does a horrible job at teaching people how to do their jobs and implement CAP programs (CP excluded - the provided materials are pretty awesome). Excluding an entire group from what little training we do get is only a recipe for further failure.

Whether or not those courses meet that goal, and are actually useful in the field, is another issue.

EDIT: Corrected logic issue.

[goblin]

They are also looking for folks to be group/wing/region "command Chiefs" so upward and outward is still a thing.

If you want "command", go for it. It's just as easy to never leave the squadron and focus on cadets/ES. Dealer's choice really.

[Holding Pattern]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

Gee, I'm not sure how having someone with long term experience in a squadron that never gets foisted into a command slot would work. We might have to look to see if anyone has ever done anything like this before! Hopefully we don't lose our Shirt over this...

I think that's entirely possible with or without CAP NCOs

Possible? Yes. Probable? Unlikely. There is some appeal to just being an NCO that doesn't get bothered with UCC and TLC and SLS and SOS and RSC and NSC, just focusing instead on Cadet Programs, AEX, and/or ES.

Or have you never seen upper echelon pressure to rotate people into commander slots?

The goal of those courses, whether realized or not, is to help members do their jobs. I don't see why an NCO would not benefit from such information just because they have a different patch on their sleeves. CAP already does a horrible job at teaching people how to do their jobs and implement CAP programs (CP excluded - the provided materials are pretty awesome). Excluding an entire group from what little training we do get is only a recipe for further failure.

Whether or not those courses meet that goal, and are actually useful in the field, is another issue.

EDIT: Corrected logic issue.

I didn't say they wouldn't need it. I did mention a lack of requirement.

[Flying Pig]

I was a 1Lt for most of my 10+yrs as a senior.  I finally made Capt because I was the Sq. Commander.  Rank never prevented me from doing anything in CAP short of maybe being a Grp Commander or higher.  Although thats not something I was ever interested in.

[goblin]

I was a 1Lt for most of my 10+yrs as a senior.  I finally made Capt because I was the Sq. Commander.  Rank never prevented me from doing anything in CAP short of maybe being a Grp Commander or higher.  Although thats not something I was ever interested in.

This. Rank is meaningless unless your goal is to move up the chain.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

This. Rank is meaningless unless your goal is to move up the chain.

The last time I rejoined ('09), I virtually insisted on starting over as a SMWOG and climbing the ladder all over again, because it had been so long (1990s) that I'd had SLS, CLC, ECI-13 etc that it was almost meaningless.  However, my then-CC was a kindhearted lady (who later got forced out of CAP because of GOB/GN politics) who insisted that since I had been a Captain, I should be one again.  It ended up hurting me in the long run.

For the record, I tried taking OBC (ECI-13 equivalent) online again and the system wouldn't let me, since I had already had it.

If I were EVER to try to rejoin CAP (and pigs might fly out of my...) I would insist on wearing stripes.  I had enough of the politics/pissing contests as to who was "worthy" of officer grade promotion and who wasn't.

[Flying Pig]

What politics are involved with CAP promotions?

[jeders]

What politics are involved with CAP promotions?

The "I don't know you/you're not part of my GOBN" politics. Been there, done that, got the delayed promotion request.

[Flying Pig]

Hmmmmm.....  Thats funny.  Some people play CAP way to serious in some areas and not at all in other areas.  Still one of the reasons I go back and forth about rejoining.  I never dealt with any politics in regards to ranks but probably because I was to busy in other areas.  Although I would be pretty torqued if some yahoo blocked me once I finished my requirements.  But with the NCO program, is that going to be guaranteed to be void of "politics"?  Or do only officers do politics?   Maybe the NCOs get promoted by who can power down a Monster the fastest?

[lordmonar]

Yes and no.

At the squadron level the promotion authority is up to MSgt.  The "politics" involved will be that only one TSgt can get promoted to MSgt at a time. 

For the higher ranks....it is getting selected for the few promotable slots that will generate the most "well they picked him because he is part of the GOBN" complaints.

We are never going to get away from office politics......that is just the nature of people.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

What politics are involved with CAP promotions?

Surely you jest...

Although I would be pretty torqued if some yahoo blocked me once I finished my requirements.

I had them finished, and then some...new CC didn't like me (told me verbally he was looking for someone special to promote and I wasn't it), blocked it because I wasn't there every week due to health issues (mine and my wife's), and because he was all-ES, all the time and I wasn't.  Previous CC would have forwarded it.

I kept my Safety currency up online (it never lapsed) and did courses online...CC said that was just "self-aggrandisement" and did not contribute toward the efficiency of the unit.

So, yes, I was fairly torqued.  I had left CAP before but never with such openly bad blood.  Of course, CC is a mission pilot and part of the Wing GOBN.  Probably will end up as Wing, or at least Group, Commander down the road.

I would rather have a system where there are only a limited amount of slots for someone to be promoted than to be told that I qualify, but wasn't worthy.

There are office politics in any organisation, but it is stronger in CAP than many actual paying jobs I've held.

That is a huge thing that drives people - not just me - away from this organisation; I've talked to others personally who have undergone it to lesser and greater extent.

I never noticed it to this extent in the CGAux, probably because the CG has a lot more oversight than the AF cares to have over CAP...with CAP, it seems to be "as long as they can't be mistaken for us in uniform, they can do pretty much what they want."  Hyperbolic, but makes the point.

[Storm Chaser]

If the level of contribution of a member is not commensurable with the grade being sought, then a commander has no obligation to promote him or her. CAPR 35-5, Para. 2-1a(4), states:

2-1. Eligibility Requirements.
a. General Requirements. To be considered for this type promotion, the member must:
(1) Be at least 21 years of age.
(2) Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).
(3) Complete Level I of the Professional Development Program.
(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended. (emphasis mine)
(5) Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.

A member who is not "performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended" will most like not get promoted. This is especially true for field grades, as those have to go to wing for approval.

If a member feels they meet the basic criteria and have been performing and contributing at that level, yet their unit commander does not want to process the promotion request, then the member can use the chain of command to include going to the group, wing, and region commanders, if needed, for reconsideration. But in the end, if none of them want to promote the member, then perhaps the member doesn't really meet the necessary criteria.

(edited for grammar)

[lordmonar]

If the level of contribution of a member is not commensurable with the grade being sought, then a commander has no obligation to promote him or her. CAPR 35-5, Para. 2-1a(4), states:

2-1. Eligibility Requirements.
a. General Requirements. To be considered for this type promotion, the member must:
(1) Be at least 21 years of age.
(2) Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).
(3) Complete Level I of the Professional Development Program.
(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended. (emphasis mine)
(5) Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.

A member who is not "performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended" will most like not get promoted. This is especially true for field grades, as those have to go to wing for approval.

If a member feels they meet not only the basic criteria, but have been performing and contributing at that level, yet their unit commander does not want to process the promotion request, the member can use the chain of command to include going to the group, wing, and region commanders, if needed. But in the end, if none of them want to promote the member, then perhaps the member doesn't really meet that criteria.

Oh.....don't get him started.

[Storm Chaser]

If the level of contribution of a member is not commensurable with the grade being sought, then a commander has no obligation to promote him or her. CAPR 35-5, Para. 2-1a(4), states:

2-1. Eligibility Requirements.
a. General Requirements. To be considered for this type promotion, the member must:
(1) Be at least 21 years of age.
(2) Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).
(3) Complete Level I of the Professional Development Program.
(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended. (emphasis mine)
(5) Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.

A member who is not "performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended" will most like not get promoted. This is especially true for field grades, as those have to go to wing for approval.

If a member feels they meet the basic criteria and have been performing and contributing at that level, yet their unit commander does not want to process the promotion request, then the member can use the chain of command to include going to the group, wing, and region commanders, if needed, for reconsideration. But in the end, if none of them want to promote the member, then perhaps the member doesn't really meet the necessary criteria.

(edited for grammar)

Oh.....don't get him started.

Right. My bad.

[Storm Chaser]

Created duplicate post. Please delete.

[SMWOG]

Putting on stripes is not going to change your views on CAP. There are two types of NCO's and Officer's,productive and non productive.