Unpublished requirements/unwritten policies

[PHall]

Attaching a print out from e-Services showing that you have completed all of the requirements should do the job.

[mdickinson]

It's a sad state of affairs, but it's also nothing new.

A few wing commanders ago in NY, the wing promulgated several additional requirements for Major and Lt Col (see attachment).

Someone knew they couldn't get away with issuing a wing supplement to 35-5, so instead of a supplement, there was a "policy letter" giving the additional requirements. (You've been a Major for four years, completed Level IV, and all the Lt Col requirements in 35-5? Great! Now you just need to be appointed as a group commander, or to a position on wing staff. Then you will become eligible for Lt Col... after some unstated period of time in that position... provided you are )

A few years later, a region commander got wind of the policy letter and struck it down. The PL silently disappeared from the wing's web site and list of supplements. It was never officially rescinded.

The next wing commander took a slightly different approach. Promotion paperwork for non-buddies was never approved, denied, or returned - it was simply never seen again. (Didn't get your promotion? Filing an IG complaint can only backfire. Your only option was to wait for a change of command at wing, then reapply.)

At that point, even something as simple as applying for an upgraded set of pilot wings was a battle. (Here is a properly filled out CAPF 2a, proof of active CAP pilot >5 years, and a current log book showing more than 2000 PIC hours. Answer? Silence. Try again three months later, same result. Clearly, we have to safeguard these things - we can't just be handing them out to any Tom Dick or Harry who completes the requirements!)

As egregious as the obstacles thrown up to promotions and other recognitions in those days, I still never heard of anything as ridiculous as holding up a PD award, or requesting anything more than proof that the person completed the requirements.

I think PD stuff should be pretty black and white, hard and fast requirements from one side of the country to another: You completed course X, requirement Y, and did A, B & C.  Here's your [Loening/Garber/GRW], etc.

Exactly. Unlike promotions, which are entirely at commander discretion and occur only with the approval of all the commanders up through group (Capt), wing (Maj), or region (Lt Col), PD awards are supposed to be a matter of completing the required training and submitting the form 24. Period.

[Eclipse]

Attaching a print out from e-Services showing that you have completed all of the requirements should do the job.

At least two of the requirements for Level IV are not tracked in eServices.

"Serve as director or staff member of a CAP course or educational activity or national, region, or wing conference."

"Public presentation to a non-CAP group or an internal or external AE presentation"

There's no way around having to provide substantiation for those.

[Storm Chaser]

Do any of your respective regions and wings have unpublished requirements/unwritten policies for processing certain actions, or is everything all aboveboard and set forth in appropriate regulations and supplements?

Yes. Unfortunately, it happens more often than it should.

If your regions and wings impose unpublished requirements, how does it promote any mission objective in CAP?  How does it motivate volunteers?

If the unwritten rule puts undue burden on the membership or mission, I usually challenge it. I've been effective at having wing through out such rules when challenged with proper regulations and requesting such policies in writing.

On the other hand, many of such policies fall in the operating procedures category. If wing can justify the benefit and they are minor enough that no one would be adversely affected by following them, I choose to comply and move on. The way I see it, you're not going to win every battle, so it's better to choose your battles wisely.

In general terms, I don't like unwritten policies. If there's a good reason to expand on a regulation, it should be put in writing and made available to all.

[a2capt]

PAWG had a similar deal going on, which was visible on their site for a while, too. That's great they want you to do "more", but the organization is not an up or out setup. So this kind of thing can't work universally.

[MSG Mac]

About 25 years ago a friend was several times submitted for promotion to Major, each time Wing claimed they never received it. An IG complaint to NER worked. He got promoted after the IG investigation was completed

[Eclipse]

PAWG had a similar deal going on, which was visible on their site for a while, too. That's great they want you to do "more", but the organization is not an up or out setup. So this kind of thing can't work universally.

It really doesn't work at all, since it defeats its own purpose, and in most cases directly and specific ally violates very clear regulations.

Grade and PD serve as nothing more then indicators of longevity and initiative, all this talk about "raising the bar" and "not being ready", etc.,
is meaningless in the current context, but it does serve to alienate some of our most deserving members.

For the record, I have no issue suppressing the grades down to the company level and putting some teeth into the structure,
what I am opposed to is all this passive-aggressive avoidance of uncomfortable conversations.

I've denied and delayed a few promotions in my time, but I never sat on them. 

The system should have regulatory-based timelines on submission, require a response in all cases, and for the most
part, promotions should be assumed as approved unless denied.

We should also add a few fields to eServices and track the remaining pieces like conferences and outside presentations.
Treat them like OPS Quals - upload the substantiation, submit to staff, click, approve, move on.  PD then becomes automatic.

I've met plenty of members who, in the abstract, aren't "ready for promotion", however there's no one who doesn't deserve the PD
level if they did the work.

If they just warmed a chair at CLC, make them re-do it, if they wrote a check for a wing conference and never showed up,
fine, no credit for you.  But address it at the time, not 3-4 years later when they think they are "done".

[ColonelJack]

About 25 years ago a friend was several times submitted for promotion to Major, each time Wing claimed they never received it. An IG complaint to NER worked. He got promoted after the IG investigation was completed

See, this is why I hate "politics" at higher headquarters.  I cannot complain about anything along those lines; every time I had a promotion request sent up about myself, it came back approved within a very short period of time.  I doubt that I was any "great shakes" as a CAP officer (then or now), but nobody held anything up whenever my name was submitted.  I made Lt. Col. at the age of 33, for crying out loud - exactly ten years after I made 2d Lt. - and I'd never been a cadet.

Jack

[Storm Chaser]

About 25 years ago a friend was several times submitted for promotion to Major, each time Wing claimed they never received it. An IG complaint to NER worked. He got promoted after the IG investigation was completed

See, this is why I hate "politics" at higher headquarters.  I cannot complain about anything along those lines; every time I had a promotion request sent up about myself, it came back approved within a very short period of time.  I doubt that I was any "great shakes" as a CAP officer (then or now), but nobody held anything up whenever my name was submitted.  I made Lt. Col. at the age of 33, for crying out loud - exactly ten years after I made 2d Lt. - and I'd never been a cadet.

Jack

I'm with you on that. I've never had a promotion delayed or denied (I think the longest I've had to wait was a month). I've had issues with other requests, mostly when I was relatively  unknown at the wing. Two of these were due to unwritten policies, which I challenged through the chain of command with positive outcomes. The system is not perfect, but it does work when politics are set aside.

[NIN]

Attaching a print out from e-Services showing that you have completed all of the requirements should do the job.

At least two of the requirements for Level IV are not tracked in eServices.

"Serve as director or staff member of a CAP course or educational activity or national, region, or wing conference."

"Public presentation to a non-CAP group or an internal or external AE presentation"

There's no way around having to provide substantiation for those.

I had a former member of my unit call me up the other day. He said "Dude, how the hell do I track public presentation to a non-CAP group?"

I said "OK, I know for a FACT that you presented at least once, probably twice, when you were in the unit with me."

"Yep, you wrote it right here on my CAPF 45b" (Me: "Whew!")

"OK, so you were a unit commander for several years.  Did you present to the Kiwanis? Rotary?  Local PD? School recruiting? Ever do an AE class?"

"Yeah, lots of times."

"Dig thru your email and figure out when you did those things.  'On January 27th, 2007, I presented to the Podunk, Iowa Rotary a brief presentation about Civil Air Patrol with a request to fund our color guard.  The Rotary gave the unit a check for $500 for color guard supplies as a result of this presentation.'  or 'March 18th, 2009, Internal Aerospace class on flying medical requirements.'  I doubt anybody is going to say 'You were a squadron commander for several years yet you never presented anything to anybody..' Just doesn't happen.."
 

[Eclipse]

You could also use photos of the presentation, or a thank-you note from the group you spoke to, etc.

In my case, I used a mission presentation to a local pilot's group - their newsletter had a photo and
they also presented a certificate of appreciation.  Same goes for the one I did for the local library.

Any wing worth it's charter should be issuing certificates or PA's regarding their conferences.

As a last resort, a memo from a commander should suffice in those cases, though I have been in the
ridiculous position of having to have "discussions" about whether that was enough.

[NIN]

You could also use photos of the presentation, or a thank-you note from the group you spoke to, etc.

In my case, I used a mission presentation to a local pilot's group - their newsletter had a photo and
they also presented a certificate of appreciation.  Same goes for the one I did for the local library.

Any wing worth it's charter should be issuing certificates or PA's regarding their conferences.

As a last resort, a memo from a commander should suffice in those cases, though I have been in the
ridiculous position of having to have "discussions" about whether that was enough.

Yeah, thats a tough one.

My friend was a unit commander in another state.  Did his group commander know about his presentation? Maybe. Did he think to say "Hey, Group Commander, I went and did this presentation. Can I get credit for Level IV?" at the time? Nope

[PHall]

You could also use photos of the presentation, or a thank-you note from the group you spoke to, etc.

In my case, I used a mission presentation to a local pilot's group - their newsletter had a photo and
they also presented a certificate of appreciation.  Same goes for the one I did for the local library.

Any wing worth it's charter should be issuing certificates or PA's regarding their conferences.

As a last resort, a memo from a commander should suffice in those cases, though I have been in the
ridiculous position of having to have "discussions" about whether that was enough.

Yeah, thats a tough one.

My friend was a unit commander in another state.  Did his group commander know about his presentation? Maybe. Did he think to say "Hey, Group Commander, I went and did this presentation. Can I get credit for Level IV?" at the time? Nope

List it on the Form 24 and see if they accept them.  They don't have any more proof then you do.

[Eclipse]

List it on the Form 24 and see if they accept them.  They don't have any more proof then you do.

Disagree.

You never send up anything "incomplete" or "hoping they will accept".

You find out what is expected and provide it.

Sending up incomplete packets are what gets things delayed - instead of just approving it, I
have to now take the time to circle it back and explain to the requester how to do their job.

This is one of the reasons there are multiple echelons - to fix this stuff before it is submitted.
Nothing more frustrating then a lower HQ CC passing on an incomplete request because they don't want to be bothered.

I have no issue doing my job, but when you expect me to do yours, grab a chair.

[MSG Mac]

Many iterations of PD ago, you were required to submit a copy of your presentation with the F24. This was when it was a Level III requirement where you had to either present to a non-CAP group  or submitted an article  for publication.

[lordmonar]

1.  Stuff outside of the regulations and unrelated to the requirements for the award.

Need to elaborate.  Otherwise, it sounds as those you are whining.  So what stuff outside of the regulations?

Pass.  If I'm too specific, someone might recognize themselves and connect the dots to me, and use it for reprisal.

Then I have to say have a good life.

If the system is broken.....you have to take a stand to fix it.
If promotion in a "broken system" is something you desire......I don't understand what your beef is.
If you accept the system is broken and you still want to play....and progress then you accept the game as is.......and loose all rights to gripe about it.

Sorry if that is harsh.....but that is the way it is.   I can't fight for you, only you can do that.

[DoubleSecret]

Then I have to say have a good life.

If the system is broken.....you have to take a stand to fix it.
If promotion in a "broken system" is something you desire......I don't understand what your beef is.
If you accept the system is broken and you still want to play....and progress then you accept the game as is.......and loose all rights to gripe about it.

Sorry if that is harsh.....but that is the way it is.   I can't fight for you, only you can do that.

Nice.  Put the onus on the guy who observes the defect and asked for perspective.  I don't recall asking you or anyone here to fight for me.  Essentially, I asked for perspective.  I asked whether this sort of thing is imposed in your areas, and to what end.

If a system is broken and one can't prove it, one's stand is dead on arrival.

My "beef" is that there is an established written process, then these double-secret roadblocks that present themselves once one has complied with the established written process.  Yes, the word "dossier" was used to my face, including all sorts of data completely unrelated to the requested award.  It should not be that way.  I didn't aid and abet such garbage in two decades in the Air Force, and it stymies me that its unpaid sometimes-auxiliary does this.   Again, to what end?

I'd like to continue to do good things in CAP and aid people in their own progression, and I'd like to achieve a position where I could realistically stop this sort of thing from happening.  I do the first part and I "pay it forward."  As for the second, I'm not in such a position.  If I bite my tongue, bide my time, play the long game and abide by the unwritten requirement, I might be able to get someplace where I can realistically shut it down for others in my area of responsibility.  Painting a big target on my back seems counterproductive.

[JeffDG]

I think you're missing the point.

a)  You're afraid of "reprisals" if someone recognizes
b)  You've claimed (without substantiation) that people are adding requirements to PD that are above and beyond the regulations
c)  You've claimed that these violations of the regulations are clear and obvious

So, I have to ask, what are these reprisals that you fear that exceed your integrity?  Not getting a PD award which has almost no practical value, or not receiving a promotion (which again has approximately zero practical value)?  It's not like they can lock you up in prison for filing an IG complaint.

Just my opinion, but there is nothing within the realm of reprisals available to anyone in CAP, up to and including the National Commander and the BoG, that would cause me to set aside my integrity and not call someone on something that was obviously and clearly inappropriate.

[DoubleSecret]

I think you're missing the point.

a)  You're afraid of "reprisals" if someone recognizes
b)  You've claimed (without substantiation) that people are adding requirements to PD that are above and beyond the regulations
c)  You've claimed that these violations of the regulations are clear and obvious

So, I have to ask, what are these reprisals that you fear that exceed your integrity?  Not getting a PD award which has almost no practical value, or not receiving a promotion (which again has approximately zero practical value)?  It's not like they can lock you up in prison for filing an IG complaint.

Just my opinion, but there is nothing within the realm of reprisals available to anyone in CAP, up to and including the National Commander and the BoG, that would cause me to set aside my integrity and not call someone on something that was obviously and clearly inappropriate.

So you're roasting me as failing to show "integrity."  Got it.  I'm not the one who initiated the practice.  Sorry, the alleged practice.  And therein lies the rub.

You did identify one key problem, but brushed by it.  I claim, without substantiation, that unwritten requirements are being added to PD that are well outside the regulations.  How does one substantiate the existence of unwritten policy in a complaint?  How would that play out?

Me:  Dear IG, [insert office] is refusing to process my PD award until I submit items far outside the scope of the award and not required by CAPR 50-17.  Pinky swear.  Totally.

IG:  You've claimed (without substantiation) that people are adding unwritten requirements to PD that are above and beyond the regulations.  That's a pretty serious allegation.  Do you have any documentation?

Me:  So you'd like a copy of the unwritten requirement? 

IG:  Yeah, that'd be great.

Me:  All I have is an unprocessed application that meets every written requirement.  How am I doing on preponderance of the evidence?

IG:  Not well.  You haven't proved that it's more likely than not (i.e., the "51% rule") that an unwritten policy exists.  At best, you've shown that someone is slow at processing your paperwork.  Thank you for playing.

[JeffDG]

I think you're missing the point.

a)  You're afraid of "reprisals" if someone recognizes
b)  You've claimed (without substantiation) that people are adding requirements to PD that are above and beyond the regulations
c)  You've claimed that these violations of the regulations are clear and obvious

So, I have to ask, what are these reprisals that you fear that exceed your integrity?  Not getting a PD award which has almost no practical value, or not receiving a promotion (which again has approximately zero practical value)?  It's not like they can lock you up in prison for filing an IG complaint.

Just my opinion, but there is nothing within the realm of reprisals available to anyone in CAP, up to and including the National Commander and the BoG, that would cause me to set aside my integrity and not call someone on something that was obviously and clearly inappropriate.

So you're roasting me as failing to show "integrity."  Got it.  I'm not the one who initiated the practice.  Sorry, the alleged practice.  And therein lies the rub.

You did identify one key problem, but brushed by it.  I claim, without substantiation, that unwritten requirements are being added to PD that are well outside the regulations.  How does one substantiate the existence of unwritten policy in a complaint?  How would that play out?

Me:  Dear IG, [insert office] is refusing to process my PD award until I submit items far outside the scope of the award and not required by CAPR 50-17.  Pinky swear.  Totally.

IG:  You've claimed (without substantiation) that people are adding unwritten requirements to PD that are above and beyond the regulations.  That's a pretty serious allegation.  Do you have any documentation?

Me:  So you'd like a copy of the unwritten requirement? 

IG:  Yeah, that'd be great.

Me:  All I have is an unprocessed application that meets every written requirement.  How am I doing on preponderance of the evidence?

IG:  Not well.  You haven't proved that it's more likely than not (i.e., the "51% rule") that an unwritten policy exists.  At best, you've shown that someone is slow at processing your paperwork.  Thank you for playing.

How about this:

Me:  Mr. IG, I have submitted my PD award, which is complete in all respects with respect to the regulations, over 3 months ago and it has not been approved.  Mr. DirPD has told me that I need to submit additional information beyond the regulations to have it approved.
D
IG:  Let me look into it
IG->DirPD:  What's holding this file up?
DPD:  He doesn't have x, y, and z
IG:  Where do the regs say that he needs x, y or z?
DPD:  Doesn't.  It's our own policy
IG:  Do you have an approved supplement?
DPD:  No
IG:  Then he doesn't need to do x, y, or z.

Your  burden is to show that you've met the regs.  Then the burden shifts to the DPD to show why he hasn't approved the PD award IAW the regs.  You don't have to prove anything of the sort.