CAP Chaplains -- problems?

[RiverAux]

Well, I opened the thread by saying that I wasn't aware of any problems.  After ChaplainDons great explanation, I guess I am aware of one -- a prominent chaplain in our Wing invoking Jesus during prayers at SAREXs, meetings, etc. 

[Chaplaindon]

"We have chosen to use chaplains there because we don't have a lot else for them to do, and they are good at certain aspects of it" -- how nice of you (et al) ... I don't know what I would do without your charity.

As to your larger thought about how to do ML, I will graciously conceed the point to your overwhelming resume and expertise (16 in 13 years, I am awe-struck).

Doubtless you are right, I mean, you MUST be --RIGHT?

And, what a shame it is that more of CAP --nationally-- doesn't (like your would-be-adult cadets), "... follow [you] to hell without even being asked." Can I carry a handbasket?

[DNall]

That was a little snide there for a chaplain. Of the people you've directly commanded for more than a few days, have you averaged more than one service academy graduate per year for every year since you first joined CAP? That one impresses people, but it's the on I think I had the least to do with. They did all the work, I was just privileged to be able to work with each of them. I'm a lot more proud of the kids we took from juvenile probation & turned around to be successful & productive citizens. I'm not wanting to brag here, I'm just making a point that I have a proven record of success with this method, that's not surprising since most of it is ripped off from various part of the military. 

On the other hand you're a chaplain so I guess you have the rules emblazoned on a tablet of stone & they can't be questioned (just returning some of that snideness, that's a joke, laugh). Fact is moral leadership is an interdisciplinary program that takes elements from within a chaplain's specialty & elements from military programs, and combines them into a hands on discussion that is not condescending to cadets at the most important time of anything else we do in the program to treat them like adults.

[Chaplaindon]

XI  "Thou shall not be snide."

Hmmm ... must have missed that one. Maybe it's in the subtlety of Hebrew to English transliteration?

Oh well, "take two tablets and call me in the morning."

[DNall]

  Listen, no disrespect intended. It's obviously an interdisciplinary thing that has a few right answers, and several wrong ones. I think it's useful to learn from what other people do & why they do it, and especially useful when they know what they're talking about rather than just stubled on something that works & can't explain why.

[Chappie]

Well, I opened the thread by saying that I wasn't aware of any problems.  After ChaplainDons great explanation, I guess I am aware of one -- a prominent chaplain in our Wing invoking Jesus during prayers at SAREXs, meetings, etc. 

The guidelines that I follow are very simple....for an event (Wing/Group/Squadron/SARX/etc.) and have a great cross-section of members, the invocation/benediction concludes with a simple "Amen".  For a protestant worship service, I will conclude my prayers according to my faith tradition.  As a CAP Chaplain, I am to be a Chaplain to all members of CAP...the cross symbolizes the affiliation with a major faith group.   While I can freely share my faith with those who ask, I am not free to try and impose my faith on others.  It irritates me to hear that there have been occasions when Chaplains or MLOs have used the ML sessions as a platform to espouse their personal religious beliefs.

[CAPOfficer]

Thanks for the S&S link,

The article makes it clear that "He was court-martialed for disobeying orders" and that the praying "in the Name of Jesus" at "public military events" and that he wore his USN uniform to a political protest in front of the White House ... all significant no-no's.

It is sad that he lost his career and his "million-dollar pension" and that his family was evicted from military housing. Such can be the consequences of one's actions.

In the end, however sad it is that he lost his career (etc.) he wasn't discharged for praying in the Name of Jesus "in his services" as CAPOfficer, perhaps inadvertently wrote. 

Correct, he wasn't discharged for the prayer alone; however, the initial reprimand he received for praying in the Name of Jesus was the catalyst for his follow-up actions.  His protest (in uniform) outside the White House seeking public support for change (to be allowed to pray in the Name of Jesus), was the final action which caused his discharge.  His disobedience to orders is also directly related to his initial actions.

Buy you're correct again, my intention wasn't to imply that he was discharged only on the basis of his praying in the Name of Jesus; for that I apologize.

[Chaplaindon]

No apology needed.

Thanks for the S&S link.

[Eclipse]

Chaplain Don,

Did you attend the Chaplain's conference last year?

Scuttle has it that one of the first things said by the director of the program was that this would be a fully ecumenical conference, and one of the first sessions was specifically about this topic.

The result was a heated discussion and at least one Chanplain walking out on the conference.

/rumor

[Chaplaindon]

Eclipse,

I wasn't there. Can't speak to the truthfulness of that rumor.

One generic comment, however, walking out may not be the wrong step to take if a clergyperson cannot --in good conscience, or within the polity/doctrine of her/his faith tradition-- minister in a fully PLURALISTIC setting. It's really not an issue of ecumenicism [which implies manifold Christian faiths working together] it is far more widespread than that.

As Chappie reiterated, a Chaplain (CAP or military) is called to minister to ALL regardless of faith or faith tradition. For example, a Muslim Chaplain must be ready, willing, and able to inclusively and positively minister to a Christian member (or serviceperson) just as he would care for them in his own mosque. They do not have to preach, believe, or witness the theology incumbent in another faith tradition ... but they do have to care for and minister to the member regardless.

If a clergyperson isn't willing to embrace and practice such a unique ministry, she/he should step aside --albeit walking out in anger isn't a good witness (IMHO) of any faith tradition. As I said earlier, the same principle applies to pilots who refuse to comply with CAPR 60-1 ... they probably shouldn't be piloting aircraft in CAP either.

Chaplaincy is a uniquely challenging vocation.

[Major Lord]

One is simple semantics/linquistics. Ethics and Morals actual/literally mean the same thing-truly. It's just that "morals" comes from the Latin noun mores and "ethics" comes from an earlier Classical Greek noun ethos coined by Aristotle. One is Latin, one is Greek. They SHOULD mean the same thing.

This is a classical example of "universalist" thinking. Morals relate to matters of good and evil, ethics on the other hand, relate to purely secular matters of right and wrong. Those who would have us adopt a belief system devoid of a belief in absolute good and evil will frequently try to mix, and therefore minimize, the value of both terms. They most assuredly do not mean the same thing.

Capt. Lord

Tags - MIKE

[Chaplaindon]

"Morals relate to matters of good and evil, ethics on the other hand, relate to purely secular matters of right and wrong. Those who would have us adopt a belief system devoid of a belief in absolute good and evil will frequently try to mix, and therefore minimize, the value of both terms. They most assuredly do not mean the same thing."

CaptLord,

Your statement is an example of why --IMHO-- "Ethics for Command" led within the SM community was ever so useful previosuly (1990's) in CAP. As a then-squadron CC, I made sure we had it.

Although, in your mind --and perhaps others-- there is a differentiation in meaning between ethics and morals, one was never intended. The words literally have the same root and inherent meaning.

Whether it is "'universalist' thinking" (heaven forbid, oh my) or not, ethics/morals ultimately speak to decision-making --and decision-making that CAN be bereft of any "belief in absolute good and evil." Now, I believe that such bereft ethics are too-often prone (if not doomed) to tragic failure and untwoward outcomes, however, decision made that way remain technically, at least, "ethical" one's.

Likewise moral/ethical decisions can be secularly-based ("what's in it for me/family/country/etc.?")or faith-based ("what would God have me do?"; "WWJD?"). Sadly, too, sometimes the faith-based ones have been hideously --even absolutely-- WRONG/EVIL (e.g. the Crusades). Why even African slavery was supported in many circles, even in the USA, by religious leaders on the basis of Scriptures.

18th & 19th Century "Christian" ethics/morals permitted/encouraged the ownership and exploitation of fellow human beings: an undoubted/undeniable moral/ethical WRONG.

It is my hope that OUR present-day decision-making, whether in the mundane ("paper or plastic?" at the supermarket) to the overwhelmingly substantial ("should we make war on ___?"), be thoughtfully/deliberately guided by issues of right and wrong. I believe in absolute rights and wrongs and likewise good and evil.

Unfortunately, we --meaning the global community of humankind, and/or the pluralistic community within CAP-- do not all share the same background, education, and faith traditions. As a result our internal mechanism for decision-making (our "moral/ethical compass," if you will) for deciding right/wrong or wrong/evil may give differing direction.

Additionally, even within Christian (or perhaps, more broadly Judeo-Christian) ethics, the compass can give varied readings. I can recall seeing the bumpersticker-espoused Christian ethical question about war, "Who would Jesus Bomb?" And, it is a fact that nowhere in the Canon of Scriptures is Jesus of Nazareth quoted as encouraging war, retaliation, or revenge. It isn't even implied.

Thus, there will be times, when a broader --perhaps more universal-- moral/ethical compass may be needed to guide decision-making in our lives and global 21st Century community.

At the same time, however, ethical decison-making can be tough EVEN with the context of a single faith and cultural/ethnic tradition. That's why, for example, there are a variety of views about the ongoing war-- even within the same country and among people of the same faith tradition and even denomination.

Capt., to recap, then, morals/ethics are about making good decisions ... HOPEFULLY, maybe even NORMATIVELY, however not ABSOLUTELY, within a context of an understanding of absolute good and evil. It does not REQUIRE faith in one belief system or another NECESSARILY, although IMHO such a belief system makes for much better decisions overall. However, atheists can make good decisions too.

Like it or not, the intended --historical-- meaning of ethics and morals is identical.

IMHO, more CAP personnel need to be taught ethics/morals formally.

[ZigZag911]

Perhaps it is time to bring back the "Ethics for Command" program.

In fact, maybe it should be woven into the required CAP courses (Level 1, SLS, CLC, UCC, RSC, NSC).

[Major Lord]

Actually, I can think of several occasions in which Jesus called for "retaliation". In one instance, he trashed the moneychangers for defiling the temple, in another, he cursed a tree for not bearing fruit ( a fig-but who really likes them anyway) and when he suggested that drowning those who would hurt his little ones by tying a millstone to them and throwing them into the lake would be a prudent preemptive action)

Words have meaning, and to say that morals and ethics are the same is not correct. ( Do I need to bring in a Jesuit here to explain the difference?)
Slavery as you suggest, would be an act that any person who has formed a sound conscience would know is both ethically and morally wrong. I have heard similar arguments from moral relativists that "allah" is the same is "God". Note that the Democrats of the day, the moral relativists and secular humanists were the suporters of slavery, but that deists and Christians finally had the practice abolished through the auspices of Abe Lincoln...

As far as your reference to the Crusades goes, I think you will find on closer study that the Crusades were a response to the stated muslim goal of world domination. The siege of Constantinople is still alive in the memory of Islam, a poitical belief system bent in fact on world domination and enslavement or annihilation of of non-believers.

Believe me, I am not arguing for CAP chaplains to take on a a more aggresive role in promoting Christianity, but I do expect a CAP chaplain to know that the western schools of Judeo-Christian beliefs are the best moral ( and ethical) road map ever created. We wear the uniform of a country that recognizes that all of our unalienable rights are granted to us by our Creator. We don't need a belief that is "Broader or more Universal" than the Judeo-Christian-American way of life. This has been tried in a variety of environments, who have tried to substitute communism, socialism, facism, and secular humanism for reason, morality and faith.  Its a non-starter.

Capt. Lord

[Chappie]

Perhaps it is time to bring back the "Ethics for Command" program.

In fact, maybe it should be woven into the required CAP courses (Level 1, SLS, CLC, UCC, RSC, NSC).

My understanding of why the "Ethics for Command" program disappeared:  When Gen. Fogleman introduced the Core Values to the USAF, it was the understanding that Squadron Commanders would implement training.  CAP followed that thinking and EFC was disbanded. 

In light of that, EFC was no longer published and conducted for Senior Members/Officers.   CAP has published it own Core Values pamphlet and there are couple of references to it in training (SLS, Level 1). 

A couple of years ago, in response to a need for something along the lines of ML for Senior Members suggested at the CAWG Commander's Call, Col. Virginia Nelson tasked the Wing Chaplain, Ch (LtC) Paul Ward, to come up with a Core Values Course for Senior Members which would be made available for all squadrons in the CAWG.  He received approval from Rob Smith and Chaplain (Col.) Charles Sharp to adapt and adopt material from previous CAP publications. 

The end result of his work can be found on the Best Practices page: http://level2.cap.gov/index.cfm?nodeID=5963.

[Chaplaindon]

So CaptLord,

If you " ... can think of several occasions in which Jesus called for 'retaliation;'" then who would Jesus bomb?

And, just for the record ... in Arabic speaking Christian congregations (and there are many), they actually do call God "Allah." It is the Arabic noun for God.

Then again, maybe they're all moral relativists (or Democrats) too ...

Also what's wrong with the more Eastern (as in Orthodox -- you remember, Constantinople? ... hey, and St. Paul was Eastern/Middle-Eastern too ... ) and Middle Eastern "schools of Judeo-Christian beliefs" are they excluded --by your thesis-- from offering (too) "best moral (and ethical) road map ever created"?

Lastly, if as you explicated, you " ... expect a CAP chaplain to know that the western schools of Judeo-Christian beliefs are the best moral ( and ethical) road map ever created. We wear the uniform of a country that recognizes that all of our unalienable rights are granted to us by our Creator. We don't need a belief that is "Broader or more Universal" than the Judeo-Christian-American way of life"  can a non-Christian, non-Jewish chaplain, let's say a Muslim or a Buddhist or a Hindu, can they be CAP chaplains and lead MLs too are need they be excluded from service in the "uniform of [our] country" because they embrace a "broader or more universal belief" system than you are willing to accept?

If so, then maybe you should have a chat with your Jesuit friend instead of me.

[MIKE]

At this pont it would seem that Chaplaindon and CaptLord should take it to PM.

[Chaplaindon]

Works for me ...

[Psicorp]

Well, I can only speak for myself here in CAP, but proselytizing in hopes of finding "common moral" ground is not only impossible it is HIGHLY unethical!.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that we should rename "Moral Leadership" training to Ethical Leadership training.  Yes, there is a major difference between morality and ethics.

Chaplains who insist that their "Religious Freedom" is being compromised by the ethical standards established by the militaries own chaplains corp, are using that argument as a straw man to make a wider political statement.  That statement is that American Values are threatened by a perceived lack of morality, too which the prescribe unethical behavior as the antedote.

Sorry to get on my soap box, but obviously this touches a nerve.

Thank you, Sir.  Back when my original squadron didn't have a Chaplain or MLO, I used to bring in guest religious leaders to conduct Moral Leadership classes for the cadets.  I found willing faith leaders from around the religious spectrum and tried to ensure that no one faith was emphasized more than any other. 

You are absolutely correct, sir, calling it Ethical Leadership Training is calling it exactly what it is.

Politics seem to ruin everything it touches.

[flyerthom]

Words have meaning, and to say that morals and ethics are the same is not correct. ( Do I need to bring in a Jesuit here to explain the difference

Capt. Lord

Please nooooooo! After four years of them I am still carry the scars. On the flip side, the Jesuits were the first I heard to advocate a more universal world view. And I quite remember the controversy over Liberation Theology and the Pope having to restrain Latin American Jesuits for their strong support of leftist revolutions such as the Sandinistas The joys of a Jesuit education in the early 80's.