Cadet and Joining Air National Guard

[MikeS]

I just want to be absolutely sure, I am a cadet and going to NBB and want to make sure I can still do that.  I am joining the ANG this weekend, actually swearing in and stuff.  I read some previous posts, and just want to be 100% sure that this will not terminate my Cadet status.  This is correct right?  Only Active Duty terminates the Cadet status?


Thanks for the help
Mike Stein

[Stonewall]

This is 100% correct.  BMT and Tech School do not count as active duty status, nor does activation for deployment.  Just ask the CAP cadet who earned the Combat Infantryman's Badge.

[MSG Mac]

As long as your orders say "Active Duty for Training", you're good to go. Being activated for active duty, though would require becoming a Senior Member.

CAPR 39-2

Regardless of the wording of the orders, "basic training" is not interpreted by CAP as "extended active duty." However, National Guard or Reserve members who enter "extended active duty" are not eligible to be cadets and must become senior members.

Therefore the aforementioned cadet with a CIB, should have become a SM upon being activated for "Active Duty"

[RogueLeader]

Also, are you entering into DEP, or shipping to basic?  If you are shipping, I don't think you are going to make nbb.

[SARDOC]

This is 100% correct.  BMT and Tech School do not count as active duty status, nor does activation for deployment.  Just ask the CAP cadet who earned the Combat Infantryman's Badge.

(3) Joining the active duty Armed Forces.  The term "active duty Armed Forces" does not include members in the National Guard or Reserves who are not on extended active duty.

Any Active Duty deployment order is an order to regular Active Duty, which makes the cadet membership automatically terminated.

According to those "Strict Readers" of CAPR39-3 the cadet can't wear his Military Ribbons or that CIB on his Cadet Uniform.   

[RogueLeader]

I would not automatically terminate the membership. They have the choice of going to senior member before they get terminated. That's just not nice, not giving them the option.

[Stonewall]

I agree to what the regs say, I was refering to a picture of a C/Lt Col (or Col) who was shown wearing jump wings & CIB as an 11B National Guardsman.

Wish I could find it again.

[SARDOC]

I would not automatically terminate the membership. They have the choice of going to senior member before they get terminated. That's just not nice, not giving them the option.

I would give them the option too.  That's just what the membership termination policy reads, is that the membership is automatically terminated.  I would think that the cadet would be well aware of any pending active duty deployment and would at least tell his CAP CoC beforehand.  Give them the option to convert to senior membership  before deployment.

[SARDOC]

I agree to what the regs say, I was refering to a picture of a C/Lt Col (or Col) who was shown wearing jump wings & CIB as an 11B National Guardsman.

Wish I could find it again.

Please post or PM me that I would love to see that if you get a chance to find it again.

[RogueLeader]

I would not automatically terminate the membership. They have the choice of going to senior member before they get terminated. That's just not nice, not giving them the option.

I would give them the option too.  That's just what the membership termination policy reads, is that the membership is automatically terminated.  I would think that the cadet would be well aware of any pending active duty deployment and would at least tell his CAP CoC beforehand.  Give them the option to convert to senior membership  before deployment.

Fortunately there is no way for NHQ to fund out about deployments. The only way is for the service member to tell the commander. Occasionally the cc can find out, but still they should give the option.

[SarDragon]

According to what I've been told, or seen posted in various places, the membership termination actually amounts to conversion to SM status, and a hold on the membership until a Form 12 and fingerprints are submitted.

[MSG Mac]

If activated NHQ puts a hold on annual dues (I wish I had known in 2003). So alerting them would be in the best interests of all concerned.

[jimmydeanno]

The key phrase is "extended active duty." 

the term "active duty" includes active duty training; active duty for training; full-time training duty; annual training duty and attendance while in active service at a school designated as a Service school by law or the Secretary of the Military Department concerned; temporary active duty when the pay is chargeable to a Reserve appropriation or; in the case of the National Guard; full-time training; and other full-time duty. It does not mean extended active duty. Extended active duty (EAD) is defined as active duty performed by a member of a Reserve Component when strength accountability passes from the Reserve Component to the active military establishment.

[MikeS]

Thank you all for the help, I will not be doing any Active Duty anything, such as Basic or tech schooling until after NBB, so we can figure that out then.  I'll probably covert to a SM in the fall, so I can do more in ES and actually get called out on missions 

But regardless thank you all!

[coudano]

You already specified, you are probably going to just go to BMT and Tech School.

There might be exceptions if you were taking a job as a full time guardsman (AGR) or some other strange things like that...  But unless/until that comes up, don't worry about it.


Have a ball at BMT.  Forget what you think you know, be quiet, and follow instructions quickly and correctly.  No sweat


What is your AFSC?
Unit?  State?

[MikeS]

If all goes well for my flight physical this weekend I will be going 1C1X1 (ATC) in the 241st ATC Squadron in Missouri.  At the same time going to college at University of Central Missouri, doing their professional pilot program.  Should be a good time I think!

[RogueLeader]

Thank you all for the help, I will not be doing any Active Duty anything, such as Basic or tech schooling until after NBB, so we can figure that out then.  I'll probably covert to a SM in the fall, so I can do more in ES and actually get called out on missions 

But regardless thank you all!

For the purposes of NHQ, basic and tech school are not considered active duty that would require you going SM. If/when you deploy,  that is a different story.

edit for spelling

[Private Investigator]

I agree to what the regs say, I was refering to a picture of a C/Lt Col (or Col) who was shown wearing jump wings & CIB as an 11B National Guardsman.

Wish I could find it again.

I would like to see that too. Being a former 11B Guardsman I was always impressed with all the bling the boys got 'before' going overseas.   

[Private Investigator]

If all goes well for my flight physical this weekend I will be going 1C1X1 (ATC) in the 241st ATC Squadron in Missouri.  At the same time going to college at University of Central Missouri, doing their professional pilot program.  Should be a good time I think!

My oldest daughter is ATC for the Navy.

Congratulations. 

[coudano]

If all goes well for my flight physical this weekend I will be going 1C1X1 (ATC) in the 241st ATC Squadron in Missouri.  At the same time going to college at University of Central Missouri, doing their professional pilot program.  Should be a good time I think!

Hmm, good choice.  Depending on your arrangement, you may be sitting in the tower at Rosecranz "full time" for several months after tech school (getting your initial qualification) (it's called seasoning training).  Not actually sure exactly how they handle that especially for enlisted controllers, but it's a question you may want to ask up front.  That all still counts (however much it is) as part of your "initial active duty training", it will all be one set of continuous orders including BMT and Tech, so you could actually remain a cadet the whole time.

Good ole Keesler AFB (Biloxi MS) for your tech school.  Good times.

[MikeS]

Yeah I'm pretty sure I got a good 6-10 months of On the Job Training after tech schooling.  We will see if I actually like the military life haha

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I wasn't ATC, but I considered it when I was in the ANG.  I seem to remember my recruiter telling me that Tech School was something like a year long...wouldn't that count as extended active duty, even though it's AcDuTra?

More hopefully helpful hints about BMT:

Do NOT show up wearing an Air Force tee shirt.  The MTI's will EAT you: "WHY ARE YOU WEARING A SHIRT WITH THE NAME OF MY AIR FORCE ON IT?!"

If your MTI asks if you like to bowl, do NOT answer in the affirmative...that's a way to get you sucked into being "latrine queen."

If you're going in as E-3, you'll be paid as E-3 but you won't wear your stripes until graduation...but do not tell anyone (especially your MTI) that you "already are" an E-3.  You are an Airman Basic and you won't win any brownie points.

Some MTI's have a cob up their afterburner about ANG/AFRES and will give them all the crap details, and ride you until graduation that you're not "really in MY Air Force."  Mine did, despite about a 1/4 of my flight being Guard/Reserve.

Pack light.  Do not take any books other than religious literature (Bible, Qu'ran, Book Of Mormon).  That is the only literature the MTI's cannot take from you and most don't make cracks about it during "shakedown."

Limit the pictures you take...nothing of your significant other in ultra-sexy pose.  I heard everything during "shakedown" from "she looks like a cheap hooker!" to "she's beautiful; what the hell does she see in a POS like you?"

Of course, this is the way it was many moons ago...no doubt some things have changed.

[Майор Хаткевич]

So, twice now I've tried to find that cadet who was getting his Spaatz award and had combat badges...

I've failed.

I remember the details of something like a 4 month Afghanistan deployment that was NOT extended active duty, etc etc.

I do believe we discussed it on this forum as well.

Still can't find it though...

[Stonewall]

I thought we discussed here, too.  Maybe it was CadetStuff?  I swear it was from 2006 because I still lived in DC, but maybe I've got my dates wrong.  Ultimately, however, I think we determined all was legit and maybe he wore his CAP with cadet insignia to receive his Spaatz. 

That's just me spitballin' though.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think it was after I was already in college so I was thinking 2008-2009.

[Eclipse]

I thought we discussed here, too.  Maybe it was CadetStuff?  I swear it was from 2006 because I still lived in DC, but maybe I've got my dates wrong.  Ultimately, however, I think we determined all was legit and maybe he wore his CAP with cadet insignia to receive his Spaatz. 

That's just me spitballin' though.

I think it was in one of the CS "uniform threads", and I'm pretty sure your memory is correct that he wore is cadet uniform one last time to receive his Spaatz.

Bottom line the regs are clear - cadets become "not cadets" automatically based on several criteria including Active Duty Status.  Changing the status formally is an administrative process irregardless of their actual status.  Any CC who is aware of a criteria taking place who does not act to make the change is violating the regs and not helping anyone, but is potentially putting everyone at risk if that member comes back from the thing that made them "not a cadet" and does something "bad", or even gets hurt.

Membership status is a legal situation which potentially affords everyone both protection and CYA.  "Not a cadet" doesn't not automatically mean "senior" (or anything else), it simply means "not a cadet", and we don't allow anyone who's official status is "not a cadet" to participate at all.

[lordmonar]

I remember it too.....there was a discussion about it....and IIRC there were pictures.

[Stonewall]

I remember it too.....there was a discussion about it....and IIRC there were pictures.

There were pictures for sure, showing CAP C/Col wearing CIB and Airborne Wings.  I remember a SM in the pic along with a congratulations cake.

[lordmonar]

I have never understood the NG exeception to the joining the military rule.

I can understand those guys who join in the NG...and do their drill and stuff BEFORE they go to BMTS....and I can understand Delayed enlisment.....but if being in the military AD is makes you ineligible for being a cadet.....how is the NG any different?  They go to the same basic, same tech schools.

Then you add the confusion of what "extened active duty means"......Go to combat for four months....oh...that's not EAD so your good.....but being a wrench turner on some state side base right after tech school....no your AD your done.

[Eclipse]

Perhaps it is a holdover from a time when we leaned less on the Guard for international combat?

To me it should be either "join up" and you're done as a cadet, or, at a minimum, "complete basic and you're done as a cadet" - once you've been through
BMT, you're pretty much on a different level in terms of the cadet experience.

[MSG Mac]

Active Duty for Training is any period that a member of the Reserve/NG spends learning his or her MOS/AFMC/NEC. It also includes Leadership schools from Basic courses all the way up to AWC and beyond.

Extended Active Duty is any period you are mobilized either as an individual or as a unit, to augment the Active Duty Forces, or just plain enlist for active duty.

Each of these statuses are explained in the orders as in " Ordered to Active Duty for Training" or in my case "You are relieved from your reserve assignment and ordered to extended active duty pursuant to Emergency Presidential Order dated 14 Sept 2001".

[lordmonar]

And yet....a cadet was deployed for combat operations with out being on EAD orders......that's the sticking point I am making.

I understand the legal status of a Guardsman at training and such.....I just wonder why a Cadet can be a Guardsman....but can't be on AD.

[Ned]

It is a bit of a holdover; from a more simple time when the DoD had fewer flavors of AD.  And many young people took advantage of "split option" programs that allowed them to do basic during the summer while going to high school or college.

The basic concept (pun intended) was that even cadets who had been to their service's basic training and returned to civilian / reserve life would benefit from our outstanding cadet program until they left for "real active duty" or aged out of CP.

Older CAP cadets are typically studying direct and indirect leadership and work as senior cadet NCOs and officers leading other cadets.  Typical basic trainees in all of our services typically intensely study "followership", so that continued CAP CP training is both complementary and helpful to the cadet.

As others have noted, the RC optempo is considerably higher today and most reservists - regardless of age - experience deployments early in their careers.  However, with the planned drawdowns and budget cuts we are likely to see Guard and Reserve optempos slowly return to the traditional level of "one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer" over the next several years.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

What about if a cadet somehow lands a slot as AGR or ART?

[MSG Mac]

What about if a cadet somehow lands a slot as AGR or ART?

He is still a member of the Guard or Reserve.Though he wears a uniform, it's considered a GS or equivalent job.

[PA Guy]

Aren't AGR slots considered AD, thus Active Guard Reserve?

[MSG Mac]

And yet....a cadet was deployed for combat operations with out being on EAD orders......that's the sticking point I am making.

I understand the legal status of a Guardsman at training and such.....I just wonder why a Cadet can be a Guardsman....but can't be on AD.

I am sure that it was either a matter of the cadet or the Commander
1 not informing National HQ
2 He completed the Spaatz requirements, prior to deployment and just wore the C/Col uniform for the presentation.
3. He illegally completed the Spaatz after deployment, which makes it fraudulent.

[Spaceman3750]

It would seem that the topic of Extended Active Duty is something that NHQ needs to clarify. If you Google the definition, you get different authoritative documents defining it in different ways in different contexts.

For example, US Code defines EAD for an officer as being on active duty status for more than 130 days and is used in the context of the definition of an Officer of the United States. In another document, a DoD policy defines extended active duty for reservists to mean whenever the "force accountability" passes from the reserve component to the active component, which would seem to imply any time you go AD for any reason. This use is in the context of pay and benefits.

I remember as a cadet hearing that 6 months was the magic number for deployments. Reservist or NG deployed < 6 months, not EAD. > 6 months and you turn into a pumpkin. I never had a reg cite and can't find it in any reg I think is relevant so it might have been a myth, has anyone else ever heard this?

Of course, NHQ could just go off of what it says on your orders (as someone else pointed out, "ordered to extended active duty" vs "ordered to active duty for training"), but otherwise they need to cook up some definition of their own because right now it's different depending on which source you ask.

Sorry if I repeated anyone's previous comments, I'm just regurgitating some light research.

[Eclipse]

Whatever the answer is, it's not based on any specific amount of time, it's a status thing, pure and simple.

The problem is that the status itself isn't pure and simple any more .

[Ned]

Of course, NHQ could just go off of what it says on your orders (as someone else pointed out, "ordered to extended active duty" vs "ordered to active duty for training"), but otherwise they need to cook up some definition of their own because right now it's different depending on which source you ask.

That's the issue in a nutshell.  NHQ should not be in the business of (re)defining terms that the military uses, especially when we are applying them to military duty.

So, yeah, NHQ pretty much goes off of what it says on the orders.

But in the big scheme of things, this is a pretty tiny issue, affecting far less than 1/10 of 1% of our cadets in any given year.  Even if it needed fixing, we have much higher priority things to fix.

Like, say the NRA badge issue.

Or the 39-1.

Or  . . . .

[lordmonar]

Well....Ned....you know.....there are plenty of volunteers out her who would love to right white papers on these sort of issues.

[BillB]

At one point years ago, the National CAC considered allowing cadets that joind the Guard or Reserve to continue cadet membership even if called to active duty. extended or otherwise. There was also consideration of allowing a Senior member who earned the Earhart and in all other respects eligible for the Spaatz, two attempts to pass the Spaatz exam as a senior member. The proposal never got to the National Board.
Allowing a reservist called to active duty to continue cadet membership was not deemed a reason to end cadet membership and would have allowed continued leadership training in the CP. If deployed the cadet would be transferred to a NHQ Squadron and basically be inactive. If on active duty in CONUS, the cadet could test at local squadrons but not hold a staff position in those squadrons. Such a program might end the problem, slight though it is, of a cadet joining a National Guard unit at 17 and then called to active duty.

[GroundHawg]

We had Air Guard guys/gals on 30 and 45 day TDYs when I was at Joint Base Balad the last time. We were all very jealous as we were on 180 rotations. They were never EAD, just TDY.
Alot of the C5 and C17 reserve and guard aircrews are on TDY orders. They get almost all the campain medals, expeditionary medals and Air Medals through aerial sorties, without ever being on AD.
A cadet could easily join the guard/reserve as a loadmaster, flight engineer, aero med tech, etc... and be very well decorated before their 21rst birthday, and never been on EAD or AD. Unlikely but plausable.

[Private Investigator]

I had an 11B Private come into my Company (Army National Guard) just out of training with a Ranger tab. He said that was a new protocol for being in the "Ranger pipeline".   

[PHall]

I had an 11B Private come into my Company (Army National Guard) just out of training with a Ranger tab. He said that was a new protocol for being in the "Ranger pipeline".   

I think you guys need to call Ft Benning to verify his story and then give him an Article 15 when it turns out to be BS.
Yeah, there is a Ranger Training Pipeline, but you don't get your tab until you're qualified. (i.e. Graduated)

[ColonelJack]

More hopefully helpful hints about BMT:

Do NOT show up wearing an Air Force tee shirt.  The MTI's will EAT you: "WHY ARE YOU WEARING A SHIRT WITH THE NAME OF MY AIR FORCE ON IT?!"

If your MTI asks if you like to bowl, do NOT answer in the affirmative...that's a way to get you sucked into being "latrine queen."

If you're going in as E-3, you'll be paid as E-3 but you won't wear your stripes until graduation...but do not tell anyone (especially your MTI) that you "already are" an E-3.  You are an Airman Basic and you won't win any brownie points.

Some MTI's have a cob up their afterburner about ANG/AFRES and will give them all the crap details, and ride you until graduation that you're not "really in MY Air Force."  Mine did, despite about a 1/4 of my flight being Guard/Reserve.

Pack light.  Do not take any books other than religious literature (Bible, Qu'ran, Book Of Mormon).  That is the only literature the MTI's cannot take from you and most don't make cracks about it during "shakedown."

Limit the pictures you take...nothing of your significant other in ultra-sexy pose.  I heard everything during "shakedown" from "she looks like a cheap hooker!" to "she's beautiful; what the hell does she see in a POS like you?"

Of course, this is the way it was many moons ago...no doubt some things have changed.

I made a classic mistake when I went to BMT in '75 ... I took with me a bit of my dad's old Army uniform (his DUI) as a kind of "good luck" charm.  My luck went bad quickly, as soon as SSgt Bong saw it.  "Secure that Army insignia!  What do you have that with you for?"

My second classic mistake was telling him what it was and why I had it.  I got the business from him for quite a while afterward.  The nicest thing he called me was "Daddy's boy."

Jack

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We had Air Guard guys/gals on 30 and 45 day TDYs when I was at Joint Base Balad the last time. We were all very jealous as we were on 180 rotations. They were never EAD, just TDY.
Alot of the C5 and C17 reserve and guard aircrews are on TDY orders. They get almost all the campain medals, expeditionary medals and Air Medals through aerial sorties, without ever being on AD.
A cadet could easily join the guard/reserve as a loadmaster, flight engineer, aero med tech, etc... and be very well decorated before their 21rst birthday, and never been on EAD or AD. Unlikely but plausable.

Back when I went through BMT the max you could hope to get was the AF Training Ribbon, NDSM, Small Arms Marksmanship Ribbon and BMT Hon Grad Ribbon.

Now I see E-2's and E-3's with sometimes three full rows of chest candy.

[PHall]

We had Air Guard guys/gals on 30 and 45 day TDYs when I was at Joint Base Balad the last time. We were all very jealous as we were on 180 rotations. They were never EAD, just TDY.
Alot of the C5 and C17 reserve and guard aircrews are on TDY orders. They get almost all the campain medals, expeditionary medals and Air Medals through aerial sorties, without ever being on AD.
A cadet could easily join the guard/reserve as a loadmaster, flight engineer, aero med tech, etc... and be very well decorated before their 21rst birthday, and never been on EAD or AD. Unlikely but plausable.

Back when I went through BMT the max you could hope to get was the AF Training Ribbon, NDSM, Small Arms Marksmanship Ribbon and BMT Hon Grad Ribbon.

Now I see E-2's and E-3's with sometimes three full rows of chest candy.

Entirely possible if you got DG at BMT and you can shoot and you're in an AFSC that deploys a lot. (i.e. aircrew)
Most of them are BTDT ribbons that everybody who deploys to the AOR gets plus it's not unheard of for a sharp Amn or A1C to get an Air Force Achievement Medal.

[lordmonar]

Okay....
BMTS Ribbon
Honor Grad
Marksmanship
NDSM
GWOTS

Deploy within your first year....add a AFAM, and OIF/OEF/GWOT
Add to that an overseas tour....i.e. deployed from overseas base...you get OSR-S or OSR-L.

Yep....very easy to be and E-3 with three rows of ribbons.

Solution.........stop having wars.....stop sending E-3s to combat zones!

[GroundHawg]

I know of an E5 with 30... and that doesnt include State Ribbons. His highest award is a Commendation Medal.

[Private Investigator]

Back when I went through BMT the max you could hope to get was the AF Training Ribbon, NDSM, Small Arms Marksmanship Ribbon and BMT Hon Grad Ribbon.

Now I see E-2's and E-3's with sometimes three full rows of chest candy.

Back in my day a NDSM was it. A buddy's son graduated top of his bunch in Army Boot Camp and got a Army Achievement Medal to top everything off with. 

[Stonewall]

Back in my day a NDSM was it. A buddy's son graduated top of his bunch in Army Boot Camp and got a Army Achievement Medal to top everything off with.

Nothing new.  21 years ago when I graduated Army Basic Training, the honor graduate got an AAM too.

The difference between Army and Air Force honor graduates is that the Air Force calls something like the top 10% their honor graduates, whereas the Army has a single (as in one) honor graduate.  When my wife graduated AF BMT there were a handful of honor graduates from a single squadron, all of which got the honor graduate ribbon.  My wife was one of them :-)

[MikeS]

For anyone who cares haha

The Squadron is really nice, looks like a great place to be!  I got most of my Flight Physical done, their hearing booth was in the middle of an upgrade, and is going to be up later this week   So I will be making a trip back out there.  But not big deal, it looks like a lot of fun!