Letters of Admonishment or Reprimand?

[RADIOMAN015]

Surely IF someone is running around playing cop and military want to be's...

I am new here but this sort of talk sure tells you a lot about the person saying it.

Little respect and some other issues that I will not get into, but you have gone out of your way to offend others and I have to wonder why you are here? Are you that miserable or feel the the need to dump on others be validated?

The CAP is the AUX of the USAF and a quasi-military group. The CAP needs a way to remove or discipline
those who may need to be reinded in as it were, for the good order and moral of the unit. The USAF sets the rules and we must follow them. I think we should have an easier way to remove those who do nothing and complain.

If one can't accept this moving on might be a good move.

Gee I never said anywhere that I won't follow the AF regulations and the CAP implementation of those regulations.  Most of our volunteers do try their best.  Sometimes volunteers find that CAP isn't for them, and likely just stop showing up.  Ideally they talk with someone.  IF someone is violating regulation to a serious level or is convicted of certain crimes, there is a procedure already in the regulation to take action against them and remove them from membership (e.g. 2B).  That is subject to review and the member can appeal it.

The questions becomes how much more administrative mumbo jumbo do we really need to do.  Volunteers have limited time and need to spend that time productively.   You need to re read all the post on this especially the one about recruiting the right people, giving them the right training, and getting them interested in the right job.  These are not easy things to do.   Sometimes there has to be a compromise on one's expectations, based upon on what is available for staffing.  It's not a perfect world, and CAP is not a perfect organization.
RM   

[fyrfitrmedic]

RM, you might want to recheck your sources about the Red Cross.
They will make a volunteer pay for damages to vehicles if they are held "at fault" for causing the accident.
They will also make you pay if the damage is intentional.
Just because you're a "volunteer" does not relieve you of the responsibility to care for the equipment you are using.

I'm unwilling to take a chance with CAP's inconsistent BS, and again lack of respect for the volunteer, who is giving freely of his/her time in an authorized activity being controlled by CAP, and therefore, is kind of like an employee, not a user of a leased vehicle -- CAP can't have it both ways.  Willing to bet if a CAP National HQ paid employee wrecks a vehicle, I bet CAP Inc is paying for it, regardless of who's fault it is.
RM       

emphasis mine

RM - CAP can have it any way they want.  If you don't like it...quit.  This badmouthing CAP is really getting on my nerves.

I've elected as a "volunteer" not to drive a CAP vehicle.  Sometimes there's not enough drivers available for wing wide exercises to drive the vans.  Oh well, that's what happens with poor policy decisions at the national level :angel:  I'm not going to quit, BUT will perform duties that I have an appropriate comfort level with.  That's what being a volunteer is about, in it's purist form.  I firmly believe IF some policy changes come about there would be more CAP drivers available.   You shouldn't let someone's opinion get on your nerves.  Remember this is CAPTALK, and we are all in the Civil Air Patrol :angel:
RM       

HOLY CRAP RM..... you are sooooooo just trolling now... come on. No one says " we are the CIVIL air patrol" that many times.

PLEASE EVERYONE, FOR YOUR OWN SAFTEY, DO NOT FEED THE TROLL ANYMORE. THAT IS ALL

+1000

[Short Field]

No expectations, no ramifications for failed performance, no disciplinary actions when people are negligent or willful.
Just do what you want, show up when you feel like it, and wear whatever you want.

Visit my wing often?

[majdomke]

BUMP
I was just reading about this subject in the new UCC course materials. I haven't attended the course yet, still waiting for one to pop-up on a weekend I'm available. Even though it was just the student handbook it did give you a suggested progression for dealing with issues within the squadron. The subject would probably make for a good pamphlet that could be used with senior and cadet staff as a reference and tool. Perhaps examples of each type so you know how to do your own. That's what I came here looking for. Still looking. Perhaps Ned could write up this pamphlet since he did such a great job on the cadet protection one.

[lordmonar]

Before we come up with a pamplet........we (NHQ/NB) need to decide what we do with the letters after they are written.

Where are they stored?
Who can look at them?
How long do they remain the record?
How does a member appeal them?
What sort of decisions can be made off of them (promotions, assignements, activites, etc).

Otherwise I would love to have a pamplet or regulation to help guide our commanders.

[majdomke]

Agreed... there needs to be guidance from legal as well.

We already keep Form 50's in the cadet folders and I'm guessing we would also keep the form 40's in the seniors folders. The question is, how long? I've used a F50 to delay promoting a cadet to SSGT because the incident happened right before the PRB. I doubt I would do the same if the incident occurred some time back as cadets are constantly in flux and mature rapidly in the program. Certainly holding back a Mitchell award for something stupid done by a cadet when they were a non-NCO would seem inappropriate.

I've done letters of counseling where I just kept the letter in my drawer and destroyed it after the cadet made improvements. It's a good incentive for them not worry about one stupid mistake following them the rest of their career. Just look at how the AF handles the UIF for airmen... I assume officers have something similar. That stuff can follow you throughout your 20-30 yr career. Keeps you straight but one mistake as a young airman could cost you that chief slot many years down the road. Or so we were always led to believe.

[FW]

I always thought a LOR or LOA was an appropriate action a commander could take if needed however, now, I'm not sure.  It was recently brought to my attention that LORs were put in the file of a former wing commander and region commander for an action occurring over 13 years ago. 

At the time, the action these two distinguished members did was allowable. 

I won't go further into the details because, I don't want to embarrass those involved BUT, I know the LOR's were filed for purely political reasons. 

The point of my rant; to insure we fix our entire IG and adverse action guidelines before any further "disciplinary" moves are made.  It seems we are treating many members like cattle.  Members work hard and volunteer their time to the extent they feel most comfortable. IMO, we do not need the kind of BS which allowed the above to happen.

Our CAP is better than this.  I am ashamed this was allowed to happen.

[lordmonar]

All the more reason for getting this adverse action guide written and on to the streets ASAP.

We can't stop the politics when there is no guidance and no way to fight it.

On the other hand.....we do need a tool to document poor behavior so that we can correct substandard performance, behavior and a solid paper trail if we decide to cut our losses.

[lordmonar]

On the note that we should be offering clear ideas and suggestions:

The Adverse action guide should include:

A Chapter on the concepts and principles of good counseling techniques and the ideas of mentoring and adjusting behavior..(i.e. it is not just a "how to slam your troops" book).

A chapter on how to give and document verbal counseling.
A chapter on LOA's and LOR's
A chapter on removal from position (both cadets and SM)
A chapter on restrictions from activites (both cadets and SM)
A chapter on demotions (both cadtes and SM)
A chapter on membership suspenstion (both cadets and SM)
A chapter on membership termination
A chapter on where this documention is stored (the USAF calls them Unfaverable Information Files...My suggestion is that they are stored at wing for group/squadron personnel and National Wing and above).  Who has access to it and clear guadance on what they can use the information for.  A clear plan on how long the information is stored (may be six months, maybe forever).  How does a member challenge the UIF and how do they get the information removed.

If anyone is intrested in this project I would not be advers in setting up a working group to start writing the regluation/pamplet.

[majdomke]

This website is amazing... lots of good information that can be adapted to CAP
www.airforcewriter.com

[FW]

Patrick, all the guidelines, rules and, regulations are nothing if our leaders don't feel the ethical need to follow them. 

This is something which the governing body of CAP will need to deal with.  I can only hope it will be part of CAP's governance overhaul.

BTW; I think an adverse action guide is already in the pipeline.

[JC004]

This website is amazing... lots of good information that can be adapted to CAP
www.airforcewriter.com

I have that on my outline as something for my resources project.  I wasn't going to include much if anything on the reprimand stuff because there isn't guidance from National and idk...

Maybe I could, though.  Not sure.

[Has been]

Letters of repremand have several uses.

It is for an offense that does not quite come up to expulsion, demotion but some dicipline needs to be given. They are particularly effective for "you knew better or should have known better or are capable of better" situations. You can always have a sentence near the end stating that the letter should be removed from the file and distroyed if there are no further dicipline issues by a certain date. Forgiveness can be a powerful retention tool at any grade. Even mom ungrounded you after a while.

On the other hand if you are going to terminate a membership (particularly if you think the JA will need to be involved) the LOR can show a pattern of behavior, it can show progressive dicipline and it is a good place to record the facts so you won't have to count of memory a year or two down the road.