Senior time spent on Cadet matters

[dogboy]

I'm interested in what proportion of their CAP time Senior members spend working with Cadets or direct support of the Cadet program. Direct support means working for the Cadet program although Cadets are not present (e.g. planning). However, general work for the unit should not be counted as direct support (for example: a Squadron Personnel Officer in a Composite Squadron would not be direct support even though he/ she processes Cadet membership applications). All Senior members who are staff in a Cadet Squadron are in direct support.

Please, votes from Senior members only.

[Ned]

Out of curisoity, why wouldn't a personnel officer at a cadet squadron be considered "supporting the cadet program?"

Along with the logistics officer, chaplain, admin, and the testing officer?

[bosshawk]

How about 0 %?  I am in a Composite Sq and have nothing to do with cadets.

[PHall]

How about 0 %?  I am in a Composite Sq and have nothing to do with cadets.

You don't interact with them at all? Do the seniors in your squadron meet on a different night from the cadets?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I command a senior squadron.  My only cadet involvement is O-flights.  Your mileage may vary.

[bosshawk]

Phil:  yes.  About twice a year, I am roped into sitting on a cadet promotion board and I do not do O flights.  So, to be completely accurate, I guess that I spend less than 1% of my time supporting cadets.

To be completely honest, I have little or no interest in the Cadet Program.  I never had kids and have never spent much time around teenagers.  My primary interest is in ES.

[dogboy]

Out of curisoity, why wouldn't a personnel officer at a cadet squadron be considered "supporting the cadet program?"

Along with the logistics officer, chaplain, admin, and the testing officer?

A valid point. Poll instructions have been altered to conform to your constructive comment.

Thanks

[spacecommand]

"Please, votes from Senior members only."

Interesting for a poll to have an option "not a senior member" when you are trying to elicit answers from senior members.

Any case I spend about 60%+ of my time working with the cadets.
Interestingly  though, when I first joined I really didn't envision myself working with the cadets, just doing operations/air crew stuff, however I ended now working more with the cadets.

[Ron1319]

I can't think of anything I do that isn't in support of the cadet program.

The thing I haven't been able to do as much of as I would like is ES.  I've tried to even not do any ES training where I didn't bring cadets along as I see it as short sighted and selfish not to ensure their involvement.  I can't think of many ES examples where I would not like to see cadets in some form of training role, even IC/base command type of activities.  Are cadets part of air crews elsewhere in the country?  I don't know any cadet scanner/observers here.  I was.

[dogboy]

"Please, votes from Senior members only."

Interesting for a poll to have an option "not a senior member" when you are trying to elicit answers from senior members.

This was quite deliberate. Even though the instruction state "Please, votes from Senior members only", I knew some non-Senior members would take a look. This option allows them to look without voting.

[Major Carrales]

More "anti-cadet" nonsense.  Do you folks not realize that the cadet program is a facet of Civil Air Patrol going back to the days of WWII and that that aspect, along with Emergency Services, is what makes contemporary CAP appeal to its supporters in government and the community?

Being against the cadet program is unbecoming and serves no constructive purpose here, that is, of course, my opinion here. 

However, if CAP were suddenly "pure ES" with no cadet element I feel it would be on the chopping block faster than you could say "Jack Robinson." Also, if we eliminated out ES function becoming a cadet only organization, we would also be eliminated because AFJROTC already covers that function...and with funding.  Why "double" an entry in the ledger for two cadet programs?

CAP is able to exist because of its current structure, not despite it.  Food for thought.

My advice to those with the type of thinking suggested by the spirit of this poll is to tolerate the cadets, do your ES and kindly go about your business. 

[Dad2-4]

I became a SM as an AE Officer, so I started off directly involved with cadets. That was the biggest reason I joined, and that's OK since my 2 sons joined at the same time.
Since then I've stayed in the cadet program, earning the CP Officer rating, AE Senior rating, as well as GT Leader and teaching ES to cadets. Since my boys are long out of CAP I plan on spending more time on Scanner/Observer certification and on Communications. But CP will always be part of my involvement.

[flyboy53]

I'm an AEO as well who doubles as a DDR instructor/officer. The rest of the time is spent with my ES duties. I'm an observer.

[JohnKachenmeister]

For Sparky Carrales:

I don't think these comments are "Anti-cadet" and I don't see any sentiment-- on or off this board-- for eliminating the cadet program.  But a lot of us get annoyed by clueless 12-year olds bumbling around missions and flight lines.  I have encountered cadets who could not tie their shoes (I am NOT making that up) and who did not know right from left or where to look when I said that there is an aircraft at "4 o'clock."

I have stopped cadets on a flight line who were running toward an aircraft with a spinning propeller, and two cadets on a GT exercise had to be stopped before they ran into an 8-foot alligator as they tried to use the box method to navigate around one of the lakes here in Florida.

Personally, I would like to see the cadet age raised to 14, like it was back in the 60's.  Putting pre-teens in CAP should be considered an experiment that has failed.

[BillB]

The disagreement between Kach and Sparky demonstrates the difference between cadet/composite Squadrons and Senior Squadrons. Senior Squadrons are involved in ES only and want nothing to do with cadets. Yet these seniors are the ones that should be providing ES training to cadets. Yet as Kach suggests there is a big problem in the cadet program when you have cadets ranging from 11 to 21 in ages. (now I'll be flamed by Ned) CAP needs to look at the entire cadet program, and consider splitting the program into various segiments. In the past there was the Eaglet program for the youngest age group and another program for the 18-21 year old as a Warrant Officer (not Flight Officer) program. Even the Boy Scouts have different levels based on age grouping.
CAP has no distinction between a 12 year old and a 20 year old. Maturity is not considred, cadets are still children regardless of age. Thus cadet participation in ES is limited in the eyes of many seniors. And training of the children has no place in ES. Considering somewhere about 40% of the membership of CAP are cadets, a vast pool of manpower for ES is ignored.

[JohnKachenmeister]

^  Agree.

Among the things National should consider:

1.  Raising the cadet entry age to 14.  Make it a high school program like it used to be.

2.  Ending cadet participation at 18.  In the 60's this was a done deal, since we had a draft.  The cadet program has very little to offer college-age folks, and they could be better utilized as flight officer senior members... in a leadership role over the cadets, but still officer members and adult leaders.   Call them warrant officers if you want.

3.  QUIT MOTHERING the cadets.  Demand excellence and performance.  There are too many lame officers who want to make excuses for failure of cadets to meet the standards of CAP.  Example:

A cadet activity is imminent, yet Cadet Nitwitt does not have the proper patches on his BDU uniform.  An officer who demands excellence will say:  "I'm sorry, Cadet Nitwitt, but you cannot participate, since you do not have a proper uniform."  Too many of our officers, however, say:  "I know you don't have patches, but I don't want you to miss this activity."  or "I'd stop him from coming, but he really wants to come with his buddies, and if I don't let him participate, we will lose him."  or:  "His parents have not ordered the patches yet from Vanguard.  We can't hold it against the cadet for the failure of his parents."

All excuses for failure to meet standards.

[coudano]

almost 100%
every once in a while i answer a PD question or run a PD report for the 'non cadet side', or talk non-CP squadron biz with the commander, but that's about it.  The rest of it is cp, even the ES portion.

[Eclipse]

The disagreement between Kach and Sparky demonstrates the difference between cadet/composite Squadrons and Senior Squadrons. Senior Squadrons are involved in ES only and want nothing to do with cadets. Yet these seniors are the ones that should be providing ES training to cadets.

Which is why the designator and the allowance for units and members not participating in 100% of the mission of CAP should be eliminated.

[Ned]

But a lot of us get annoyed by clueless 12-year olds bumbling around missions and flight lines. 

That's fair.  A lot of us get annoyed by clueless seniors bumbling around CP activitiers that have not figured out how to wear a uniform or master the basics of military customs and courtesies.   

Personally, I would like to see the cadet age raised to 14, like it was back in the 60's.  Putting pre-teens in CAP should be considered an experiment that has failed.

Well, we have re-raised the lower age limit in recent times.  And I suppose reasonable minds can differ as to what the lower age limit should be.  But out of curiosity, other than your personal opinion, what criteria are you using to say that lower limits have "failed" or that 14 is the magic number?"

Yet as Kach suggests there is a big problem in the cadet program when you have cadets ranging from 11 to 21 in ages. (now I'll be flamed by Ned) CAP needs to look at the entire cadet program, and consider splitting the program into various segiments. In the past there was the Eaglet program for the youngest age group and another program for the 18-21 year old as a Warrant Officer (not Flight Officer) program. Even the Boy Scouts have different levels based on age grouping.

Some quick responses:

1.  Neither the Eaglet nor the warrant program drew a significant number of participants.  Which is pretty much why they are no longer with us.

2.  We have been down this road numerous times before, as you will recall.  Advanced Cadet Transition programs and Junior Cadet programs have come and gone with no visible signs of success.

3.  Maybe, just maybe, the Scouts are wrong and we are right.

CAP has no distinction between a 12 year old and a 20 year old. Maturity is not considred, cadets are still children regardless of age.

Bill, you know I greatly respect your contributions to CAP, but this is just utter nonsense.

The training and treatment of younger and more mature cadets is dramatically different.  As different as the way we treat C/ABs and C/Cols.  Not a lot of 20 year olds in Phase I; nor many 12 year olds in Phase IV.

And to repeat myself yet again, the concepts of "cadethood" and "adulthood" are simply unrelated.  Cadets are students, regardless of age.  As you read this, your Uncle Sam has thousands of cadets under the age of 18, and thousands of cadets over the age of 18.  If Uncle Sam doesn't care about the artificial distinction of the 18th birthday in his cadet programs, why should we?

[Camas]

I can only share something that occurred in our wing some years ago.  A former member was most active in establishing what was probably one of the best glider programs in our region at the time. He and other members got a program going which was the envy of many. He made it clear that, while he was a senior squadron member, his team was working to benefit the cadet program. In his case he also did powered O-rides along with the glider program. He was awarded the MSA for his efforts. Sadly he has moved and is now with another wing.

I am currently attached (not assigned) to a squadron as their interim professional development officer along with serving in my wing assignments so yes, my contact with cadets based on my current duty assignment is somewhat limited. But I still help out when asked by the unit commander such as sitting in on promotion boards and the like. I really enjoy the contact with these fine young people.

It's unfortunate that there are those who seem to feel that participating in the cadet side of things is something they don't enjoy doing. It continues to be one of our three missions as well as it should.

That's fair.  A lot of us get annoyed by clueless seniors bumbling around CP activitiers that have not figured out how to wear a uniform or master the basics of military customs and courtesies.   

Thank you. I couldn't agree more.