Prospective Physically Handicapped Members Access to Squadron?

[tdepp]

Gentlemen, I feel the public are our "potential members" and Senator Johnson could very easily belong to our Congressional Squadron, so it would be nice to accomodate him.  I have made my opinions known and feel very comfortable with them.  You are all entitled to your own opinions.  Please remember that your CAP Legal Officer represents the Corporation and not you or your squadron..  National is their client.. And as they say, Be careful out there..

Chiro:
Good points.  Not only do I have my own chain of command legal officer-wise, they are also lawyers as well!  And while I only advise my squadron and wing (so far), National is ultimately the "client."  We're kind of like H.R. at a company; members might ask for advice and help but ultimately we look out for the organization's best interests.  That isn't always a fun position to be in but I knew the "job" was dangerous when I took it.

And, Chiro, as I think you at least imply, it is usually cheaper, less stressful, and better public relations to be proactive on legal issues like this rather than end up in litigation.  While I make part of my living as a litigator, avoiding legal problems or controversies when possible is usually a better solution.  Litigation is like having cancer: you don't know what the outcome will be, it is stressful, expensive, and painful. 

Obviously, any squadron, group, or wing that's looking at new office or meeting space should consider accessibility for the reasons noted above. 

[PA Guy]

If a squadron is meeting out of the trunk of the commander's car and are offered a facility that is non ADA compliant they should turn it down? Or, the only facility for the Wing's encampment isn't ADA compliant they should cancel the encampment? Should our corp. AC be accessable? Should all of our vans have lifts?

What was that about "reasonable".

[Spike]

I would approach the base liaison Officer and discuss this situation.  Different accommodations could probably be found.  They may not be ideal, but Radio wants a solution to a situation that probably won't exist, so lets give him one. 

[FARRIER]

Should our corp. AC be accessable?

http://www.wheelchairaviators.org/info_faqs.html

Out of CAP's total membership, how many are form five rated pilots - I've heard 6%.

[RiverAux]

A squadron in our wing has a very similar situation with their facility and I know that this issue was discussed before they ever moved in and the legal opinion given at that time was to not to worry about it (I'm paraphrasing).

Ned, I'm not sure I would call this a modern government facility since it is not handicapped accessible. 

[a2capt]

..and just what is the matter with "here, we can carry you up/in/out/whatever?" anyway?

Of course, there brings a whole other issue of legal worries.

This is another case where the minority rules the majority.

We have this wheelchair bound lawyer, locally, that runs around places and then files suits because he can't get in, 24 car lots in one weekend, nearly every business in a small gold rush era tourist trap town, (his weekend was "ruined" because he couldn't get into all these places) ..

Thats way beyond reasonable. The buildings are from the 1800's, most on the historic register of somewhere, and it might as well be the hysteric register.

The OP actually didn't say it was an issue, just thought about it. 

[lordmonar]

There is proactive and then there is just stupid.

First.....there are thousands of squadrons....if each one of them was proactive and did the minimum to make sure that their buildings were accessable.....How many THOUSANDS of dollars are going to be spent?  Who is going to pay for it?  What are the guide lines?

Second...reasonable accommodation.  If you meet in the loft over the hangar.....it is unreasonable to expect you to intall a $10,000 chair lift for one person.  CAP is a volunteer organisation, not employment.  No one has a right to join.  We have an internal policy  to accommodate....but no one has a civil right to join.

If someone with special needs wants to join you work with that individual to see what accommodations can be made....and you seek help from wing. 

Don't be building wheel chair ramps just in case maybe someday you will get someone in a wheel chair who may join CAP.   That would just be stupid.

[capchiro]

First, just what is the inter-anal policy you speak of?  That sounds either entertaining or downright scary depending on your viewpoint..  Second, I think you might just be surprised to find out that both the ADA and National would consider that disabled people do have a "right" to join CAP.  We actually have a Col. in charge of EEOC and most people in the know feel that an ounce of prevention in this area is worth many pounds of cure..  And remember, "Stupid is as Stupid does"..

[Spike]

..and just what is the matter with "here, we can carry you up/in/out/whatever?" anyway?

Of course, there brings a whole other issue of legal worries.

This is another case where the minority rules the majority.

We have this wheelchair bound lawyer, locally, that runs around places and then files suits because he can't get in, 24 car lots in one weekend, nearly every business in a small gold rush era tourist trap town, (his weekend was "ruined" because he couldn't get into all these places) ..

That's way beyond reasonable. The buildings are from the 1800's, most on the historic register of somewhere, and it might as well be the hysteric register.

The OP actually didn't say it was an issue, just thought about it.

Really?!?!  His case would have gone nowhere since buildings built after the ADA law took effect had to incorporate the changes and only certain buildings or establishments had to make the improvement.  There were "grandfather clauses" built into ADA specifically for this situation.

I remember reading about people like him going out and trying to sue everyone and everything.  They are called slimeballs, and should be shipped to a country that treats disabled persons worse than anyone in the US ever would. 

[davedove]

Yeah, the one's who run go around looking for excuses to sue are slimeballs in my view.

So much more is accomplished when everyone works together.  When the ADA was passed, most businesses found it easiest when they asked disabled customers what would make it easier for them, with the solutions sometimes amazingly simple.

For example, one bank was concerned their counters were too high for wheelchair-bound customers to write on.  Rather than immediately start worrying about having to lower their counters (and the cost associated with that) they simply asked these customers for a possible solution.  The answer the customers provided:  provide clipboards that they could write on.

[lordmonar]

That's the solution.....working with the individual members who join and have special needs.

Shouting that each and every squadron needs to make their meeting place accessable before hand is just silly.

A) Where is the money comming from?
B) What about units that meet in facilities they don't own?
C) What sort of timelines and complainace standards are we going to have to meet? (There are more disabilities then just being wheel chair bound).

The killer is A and B.

Most units do not own the property the meet at.  Most may have  space or even a building loaned to us by some other agency or group.  We simply can't go around making modifications to them with out permission.

The other killer is money....who pays for it?  I know my squadron does not have the money to put in a simple ramp....let alone an elevator!  Do we sell off planes to pay for wheel chair ramps?

[RiverAux]

Shouting that each and every squadron needs to make their meeting place accessable before hand is just silly.

You would agree that regardless of whether it is required of CAP or not, that having all CAP facilities be handicapped accessible should be our long term goal? 

[tdepp]

Wouldn't want the law, the regulations, or the facts get in the way of the discussion.  Here's the federal government's compliance manual for public accommodations: http://www.ada.gov/taman3.html

[a2capt]

http://www.nctimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/article_e34176dd-050a-5c2d-a642-95bfa9aa82af.html

Basically..

http://www.google.com/search?q=theodore%20pinnock

Julian, a gold rush area tourist trap, famous for the old west feeling, and Apple Pie.

One weekend it was 20 car dealers. He's famous for picking out a theme, another it was mom & pop restaurants.   You'd never know when you were gonna get shopped around here. Dude was even proven to not have actually been to some of the places he filed suit against, just sent in scouts "nope, you won't fit in here.. "  everything from the toilet paper is too high, the sink hasn't got the insulator over the drain pipe. A pyramid display of Coke to the side of the aisle, the buttons on a 40 year old elevator too high. (A stick on a chain is present, too, to push said buttons. Dude sued, saying he felt out of place using the stick)

The diaper looking thing you see on the under-sink drain elbows? So a wheel chair person doesn't burn their .. legs.

Now.. tell me, the water in the sink, thats coming out raw, that won't burn you, but the drain will? OMG.

Just like the first article link says, Turning the ADA into an ATM. This guy is still at it to a smaller degree, he's probably on everyones [Filter Subversion] list too. "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason" .. sounds like a good starting point. Too bad it's not that simple.

We are fairly shielded by the DoD on this stuff, but for those units that meet in donated space like a barely leasable unit in a shopping center..  there's a bit more exposure. I'd go with the reasonable approach though, you tried.

Really, is there anything wrong with providing physical assistance? "Ring the bell for assistance", and two or three can just carry up the chair if thats whats needed?

[lordmonar]

Shouting that each and every squadron needs to make their meeting place accessable before hand is just silly.

You would agree that regardless of whether it is required of CAP or not, that having all CAP facilities be handicapped accessible should be our long term goal?

No.....got better things to spend the money on.

I would first make sure that all our aircraft were properly hangared, each wing has it's own facility and we have regional encampment/training facilities before I spent money on making sure existing faculties were retrofitted with handicapped accessibility.

[lordmonar]

Wouldn't want the law, the regulations, or the facts get in the way of the discussion.  Here's the federal government's compliance manual for public accommodations: http://www.ada.gov/taman3.html

Non-applicable.....CAP is not a public accommodation.

[RiverAux]

Did I say we were going to need to spend gadzillions of dollars?  What we're talking about here is moving to adequate facilities over the long term when the opportunity arises.

No one is suggesting we spend 100K to put an elevator in somewhere.  But, we should be on the lookout to move to a facility that doesn't have that problem. 

[lordmonar]

Oh...of course I believe that if CAP were to start funding/finding facilities for new and existing units....we should strive for those that ARE ADA complaint.  I thought you were suggesting that CAP start funding the modification of existing facilities.  My bad.

[jimmydeanno]

Common sense tells us that two locations, both of equal size, space and condition that only have the difference of being more handicapped accessible that we should take the latter.  However, given the option of having no meeting place or one that isn't accessible, the latter would take precedence. 

Military facilities that are designed to provide services to handicapped people make the buildings accessible (BX, Commissary, MPF, Hospital, Vet, Golf Course, Marinas, Clinics, etc).  When your NAF funding is dependent largely on retirees (of whom, a large number have disabilities) it makes sense to provide those accommodations.

My last squadron met in the same type of location that yours does (second floor of a maintenance hangar with steep concrete stairs leading up).  Certainly, the base is not going to put an elevator or 3000' wheelchair ramp to accommodate a volunteer tenant unit.  We had plenty of folks with disabilities (no wheelchairs) and unfortunately it was difficult for them to get upstairs.  However, it wasn't something that a helpful arm couldn't fix...

However, it couldn't hurt to ask if there is space available somewhere else that could be used.

[tdepp]

Wouldn't want the law, the regulations, or the facts get in the way of the discussion.  Here's the federal government's compliance manual for public accommodations: http://www.ada.gov/taman3.html

Non-applicable.....CAP is not a public accommodation.

Please cite me to the law, regulation, or case law (or even a law journal article) that says that.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like a citation so I know where to go for an answer if or when this comes up under my watch.  If you're thinking CAP falls under the "private club" provisions, I think that would be a specious argument.  But I'm here to learn.  Education me.  Thanks.