Hi" there every one i just join CAP 2" months and a week ago, I'm new to CAP and to this Chat I'm looking forward to hearing old & new stories if any one would like to share . I'm" from Irving Texas unit TX SWR- 133 Composite Squadron I'm" a CAP Officer .
Welcome to CAP talk.
FYI - you're a "Senior Member" - the term "officer" as a generic term for adult members was never officially adopted and was disavowed by our (recently) former National Commander.
Once your are promoted to 2d Lt., then you'll truly be a CAP "officer".
(I will now get crap from 4 people for making an issue of this...)
Texas Wing is pretty active, and we have a number of members from there, not the least of which is "Sparky" Carrales, who will likely be along any time to say "Hi".
Well thank you i look forward to meeting them and thank`s for the information .
So I'm not considered an officer until i earn my Mitchel as a second lieutenant right ? I thought that CAP Senior Member was the first officer rank because it`s on the rank structure that say`s CAP right above Butter Bar ? How long will it take before i get commissioned ?
Welcome to CAP and CAPTalk!
Do you have any specific interests in CAP? IE, communications.
Mitchell is for cadets.
It takes 6 months to become a 2nd lt. I could be wrong, Though. :angel:
Eclipse, what do I call SMs then? If they aren't officers than I can't call 'em sir/ma'am.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on September 14, 2011, 04:25:04 AM
If they aren't officers than I can't call 'em sir/ma'am.
Sir and Ma'am aren't reserved for only for officers. Last I checked, that title of address is a universal form of politeness that you can use for anyone you meet, military or civilian. If you bump into a nice old lady in the grocery store, would not you say, "Oh, pardon me, ma'am." Or, if you were too weak to open a jar of pickles, you could say, "Excuse me, sir, could you open these pickles for me?"
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on September 14, 2011, 04:25:04 AM
Eclipse, what do I call SMs then? If they aren't officers than I can't call 'em sir/ma'am.
Sure you can. You can call anyone you want, sir or ma'am. I generally reserve it for someone that I respect.
Well Eclipse i was wondering because every call`s me sir so what are they suppose to call me because they can`t call me Airman lol and 6 months is nothing .
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 04:33:24 AM
Well Eclipse i was wondering because every call`s me sir so what are they suppose to call me because they can`t call me Airman lol and 6 months is nothing .
Welcome, I would suggest that you make a post here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=135.0
It's the introduction thread. I think there may be some confusion about whether or not you are a cadet member or an adult (senior) member. Knowing what membership category you are actually in will help us provide more accurate information to the questions you are posing.
His profile says that he's 21.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on September 14, 2011, 04:31:01 AM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on September 14, 2011, 04:25:04 AM
If they aren't officers than I can't call 'em sir/ma'am.
Sir and Ma'am aren't reserved for only for officers. Last I checked, that title of address is a universal form of politeness that you can use for anyone you meet, military or civilian. If you bump into a nice old lady in the grocery store, would not you say, "Oh, pardon me, ma'am." Or, if you were too weak to open a jar of pickles, you could say, "Excuse me, sir, could you open these pickles for me?"
I was giving him a hard time.
If it is "universal politeness" how do you think sergeants feel when they are called sir/ma'am? >:D
Never use never or ever.
I don't like pickles >:D
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on September 14, 2011, 04:37:17 AM
If it is "universal politeness" how do you think sergeants feel when they are called sir/ma'am? >:D
Never use never or ever.
That depends on if they were cast in a Hollywood movie or not.
Well that`s not accurate you never call a master sergeant our drill instruter sir they will make your life a living hell and tell you they dont wear a compass around there neck they work`s for a living civilian world it`s just out of respect . You never call a enlisted person ma`am our sir lol you adress them by there rank our they will make you get down in the foward leaning rest postion and do push ups .
Now can you tell the commander on here that my unit need`s a box of ground guides & a seat of grid squares for next week`s formation and see if they can have them sent over .
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 04:47:26 AM
Well that`s not accurate you never call a master sergeant our drill instruter sir they will make your life a living hell and tell you they dont wear a compass around there neck they work`s for a living civilian world it`s just out of respect . You never call a enlisted person ma`am our sir lol you adress them by there rank our they will make you get down in the foward leaning rest postion and do push ups .
I know. I was just responding to his arbitrary statements.
Btw, pushups are hazing... :(
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 04:47:26 AM
Well that`s not accurate you never call a master sergeant our drill instruter sir they will make your life a living hell and tell you they dont wear a compass around there neck they work`s for a living civilian world it`s just out of respect . You never call a enlisted person ma`am our sir lol you adress them by there rank our they will make you get down in the foward leaning rest postion and do push ups .
*sigh*
So how about that box of ground guides for next week`s formation .
Well it`s 12:00 hours so im going to get off here and hit the rack yall be sure to enjoy yourselfs nice talking with you .
good thing NCO's in the AF are called sir or ma'am...
Just because one branch does things one way does not mean they all do it that way....
I think ill take a line close to RM, remember, were the Civil Air Patrol, USAF Aux. Not army, navy or marines Aux. We do things the AF way....
Quote from: NCRblues on September 14, 2011, 05:24:12 AM
good thing NCO's in the AF are called sir or ma'am...
Just because one branch does things one way does not mean they all do it that way....
I think ill take a line close to RM, remember, were the Civil Air Patrol, USAF Aux. Not army, navy or marines Aux. We do things the AF way....
Seriously? :o
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on September 14, 2011, 05:43:42 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on September 14, 2011, 05:24:12 AM
good thing NCO's in the AF are called sir or ma'am...
Just because one branch does things one way does not mean they all do it that way....
I think ill take a line close to RM, remember, were the Civil Air Patrol, USAF Aux. Not army, navy or marines Aux. We do things the AF way....
Seriously? :o
I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, but yes, the proper term for NCO's in the USAF is sir/ma'am. For chief its "yes chief/no chief or sir/ma'am". Some SMsgts want to be called "senior" but again, best option is sir/ma'am.
I've got my doubts on the intention of this thread myself. :)
It seriously has a bit of troll-flavor to it, in that I suggest the original poster re-read their material. The way I read it, the questions being asked, things at the very basic level that should have been answered at the unit, just are not there it this is solely what I am to base it on. Such as that, that I can't imagine a functioning unit lacking at this basic level.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on September 14, 2011, 04:37:17 AMIf it is "universal politeness" how do you think sergeants feel when they are called sir/ma'am? >:D
This former MSgt liked it just fine. My TI at basic liked it just fine.
And if any NCO gives you a hard time about it....you send them to me and I will correct them.
It seems that these Marine Drill Instructors have no problem with it either: http://youtu.be/09-9tB6IMhQ
Note the direction given at 0:50, 1:35 and the responses that are used throughout the video.
Can I have a citation so I can say sir/ma'am and not get looked at funny?
Edit: this goes for CAP sergeants too, correct?
It is right next to the regulation that says you salute Medal of Honor winners.
-.-
A name of the reg would be nice.
http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000405.html
It's the nonexistent regulation right next to the "By my command" regulation.
EP, I think you're trying to read into this too much. Customs and Courtesies fall within our core value of Respect. If you think about that core value while interacting with people, no matter what you do, it will be courteous, polite, and respectful.
Sure, we can point to CAPP 151 and say that it says to call C/NCOs "Sergeant" and C/CMSgts "Chief." I also agree that under normal circumstances most people who have read the 'rules' and have experience in the organization will end up doing this out of habit. I also think that it is important that we try to teach people those customs as it is part of our culture.
However, for those who aren't in the know, people unfamiliar, or not as experienced, calling someone "sir" or "ma'am" with the intent of showing someone respect and courtesy should never be met with a reaction that is not of the same intent - because that would be contrary to the "courtesy" aspect of "customs & courtesies."
As a CAP cadet, the goal should be education, so a simple "you should call me Sergeant EP in the future" should suffice. From my point of view, if someone didn't know what to call me, I certainly would not be offended if someone used the universal "sir" as a form of respect.
LMAO all officers & warrant officers are refared to as ma`am sir / mister our by there rank in every branch . Air Force , Army , Marines, Navy , Coast Guard . enlisted are referd to by there rank .
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 08:39:17 PM
LMAO all officers & warrant officers are refared to as ma`am sir / mister our by there rank in every branch . Air Force , Army , Marines, Navy , Coast Guard . enlisted are referd to by there rank .
Wrong, as an active duty AF NCO i was called sir by enlisted people under me, and my grade and name by those above me.
The AF calls NCO's sir... why is this hard to understand?
Same in every branch , Army, Marines, Air Force, Navy Coast Guard . How are you today, Master Gunnery Sergeant, How is it going Captain our Sir , Warrant Officer rank ma`am our sir ' same as officer . Every need`s to learn this" if they join the military there going to get corrected .
You would never call a Lance Corporal sir our ma`am you call them by there rank i don`t need to look it up.
Mr Moon, may I ask what your direct military experience is?
Quote from: NCRblues on September 14, 2011, 08:50:24 PM
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 08:39:17 PM
LMAO all officers & warrant officers are refared to as ma`am sir / mister our by there rank in every branch . Air Force , Army , Marines, Navy , Coast Guard . enlisted are referd to by there rank .
Wrong, as an active duty AF NCO i was called sir by enlisted people under me, and my grade and name by those above me.
The AF calls NCO's sir... why is this hard to understand?
I understand, sir!
But since we are the USAF aux. Shouldn't CAP NCOs be called sir, too?
If yes, can I have some proof other than "some guy on the interwebz told me."
Edit:turning into a bit of a furball/troll thread.
I have never heard the air force call NCO sir . E-1 Airman E-2 Airman E-3 Airman first class E-4 Senior Airman E-5 Staff Sergeant E-6 Technical Sergeant E-7 Master Sergeant & First Sergeant E-8 Senior master sergeant & First Sergeant . E-9 Chief Master Sergeant - First Sergeant - Command Chief Master Sergeant - Chief Master sergeant of the air force . this how you address them there is no ma`am our sir .
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on September 14, 2011, 09:11:38 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on September 14, 2011, 08:50:24 PM
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 08:39:17 PM
LMAO all officers & warrant officers are refared to as ma`am sir / mister our by there rank in every branch . Air Force , Army , Marines, Navy , Coast Guard . enlisted are referd to by there rank .
Wrong, as an active duty AF NCO i was called sir by enlisted people under me, and my grade and name by those above me.
The AF calls NCO's sir... why is this hard to understand?
I understand, sir!
But since we are the USAF aux. Shouldn't CAP NCOs be called sir, too?
Maybe. Depends on your perspective.
QuoteIf yes, can I have some proof other than "some guy on the interwebz told me."
Edit:turning into a bit of a furball/troll thread.
Probably not. Other than what it says in CAPP 151, I don't know of any hard and fast rules on this issue. It's partly a common sense issue, and we all know how common that really is.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on September 14, 2011, 09:11:38 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on September 14, 2011, 08:50:24 PM
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 08:39:17 PM
LMAO all officers & warrant officers are refared to as ma`am sir / mister our by there rank in every branch . Air Force , Army , Marines, Navy , Coast Guard . enlisted are referd to by there rank .
Wrong, as an active duty AF NCO i was called sir by enlisted people under me, and my grade and name by those above me.
The AF calls NCO's sir... why is this hard to understand?
I understand, sir!
Edit:turning into a bit of a furball/troll thread.
But since we are the USAF aux. Shouldn't CAP NCOs be called sir, too?
If yes, can I have some proof other than "some guy on the interwebz told me."
I don't not believe they (cap) has a hard rule on the sir/ma'am title, BUT cadets should have no idea other than sir/ma'am of what to call NCO's.
If units allow cadet NCO's to demand to be called SGT "because I work for a living" (and i have heard that term used way to much in cap) than that is wrong because frankly, that's a hollywood movie line.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on September 14, 2011, 09:11:38 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on September 14, 2011, 08:50:24 PM
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 08:39:17 PM
LMAO all officers & warrant officers are refared to as ma`am sir / mister our by there rank in every branch . Air Force , Army , Marines, Navy , Coast Guard . enlisted are referd to by there rank .
Wrong, as an active duty AF NCO i was called sir by enlisted people under me, and my grade and name by those above me.
The AF calls NCO's sir... why is this hard to understand?
I understand, sir!
But since we are the USAF aux. Shouldn't CAP NCOs be called sir, too?
If yes, can I have some proof other than "some guy on the interwebz told me."
Edit:turning into a bit of a furball/troll thread.
There is no reg that says to call NCOs as sir/ma'am in the AF as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong former AF NCOs). And as jimmydeano said earlier, CAPP 151 has the proper terms of address for CAP. But sometimes in the real world, people due things which aren't specifically covered in a manual. These things that people do get carried over from one generation to the next organically. It's called tradition. If you make your cadets call you sir when you're an NCO, you're likely going to get a lot of blank stares and no support. In the AF it's just a commonplace thing that they do. Don't sweat it, and press on.
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 09:15:57 PM
I have never heard the air force call NCO sir . E-1 Airman E-2 Airman E-3 Airman first class E-4 Senior Airman E-5 Staff Sergeant E-6 Technical Sergeant E-7 Master Sergeant & First Sergeant E-8 Senior master sergeant & First Sergeant . E-9 Chief Master Sergeant - First Sergeant - Command Chief Master Sergeant - Chief Master sergeant of the air force . this how you address them there is no ma`am our sir .
AH, troll...got it...
You have never been in the AF, Branch's handle things differently, that is why each branch has a basic training instead of one massive one for D.O.D.
Thanks for playing, but your wrong.
I don't have a horse in the race about how to address CAP SM NCOs, except to note that as an Army guy working in a joint environment we addressed AF NCOs as "sergeant" or "chief" as appropriate without ever being "corrected."
However, CAP actually has written doctrine on how to address cadet NCOs; and that is "sergeant" or "chief" as appropriate.
That is what we are - and should be - training our cadets as to how to address each other.
As a side note, when working with our AF partners in a joint environment, I noted a lot of first names being used in conversations amongst AF members that would have been considered highly inappropriate amongst soldiers. Just a cultural difference, I expect.
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 09:15:57 PM
I have never heard the air force call NCO sir . E-1 Airman E-2 Airman E-3 Airman first class E-4 Senior Airman E-5 Staff Sergeant E-6 Technical Sergeant E-7 Master Sergeant & First Sergeant E-8 Senior master sergeant & First Sergeant . E-9 Chief Master Sergeant - First Sergeant - Command Chief Master Sergeant - Chief Master sergeant of the air force . this how you address them there is no ma`am our sir .
Mr. Moon, I understand that in your expeirnce you may never have heard USAF NCO's called sir or ma'am.
I retired as a MSgt in 2008 after 22 years in the service.......so my experince is long and still fairly freash.....and on day one my TI instructed me to call him "Sir". I was supposed to say "Sir, Ariman Harris reports..." or "Sir, Airman Harris reports as ordered...." before I said anything else!
Now....I know other services do it differently, but as it has been said....CAP is the USAF Auxillary....so let's do it their way.
Quote from: Ned on September 14, 2011, 09:26:52 PM
I don't have a horse in the race about how to address CAP SM NCOs, except to note that as an Army guy working in a joint environment we addressed AF NCOs as "sergeant" or "chief" as appropriate without ever being "corrected."
However, CAP actually has written doctrine on how to address cadet NCOs; and that is "sergeant" or "chief" as appropriate.
That is what we are - and should be - training our cadets as to how to address each other.
As a side note, when working with our AF partners in a joint environment, I noted a lot of first names being used in conversations amongst AF members that would have been considered highly inappropriate amongst soldiers. Just a cultural difference, I expect.
Ned, i think that really depends on what type of AF shop your dealing with. It seems firefighters/cops/CATM and other semi combat AF units follow the rank/sir/ma'am way a lot more than say Com's/maintainers/finance/admin.....
Just my view from being on active duty AF.
To amplify what Ned said........Sergeant and Chief are ALSO acceptable terms for USAF NCO's.......we just don't (in my not so humble experience) get a hard on for it like other services (this is not a ding on other services).
My pet peeve is with people who jump down other people for using a generic term of respect. I particularly hate "I work for a living" as that teaches disrespect toward officers.
If you perfere "sergeant" instead of sir.....just tell them "call me sergeant" and press on.
http://www.woodfieldcap.org/SMgrade.shtml
here`s your prof . http://www.woodfieldcap.org/SMgrade.shtml
so how am i wrong sir ?
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 09:44:07 PM
so how am i wrong sir ?
You are not wrong.....but neither is sir or ma'am....that is my point.
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 09:43:02 PM
here`s your prof . http://www.woodfieldcap.org/SMgrade.shtml
That someone somewhere can make a website that says whatever they want?
Flight Officers aren't transitional, we're full members with full grade and aren't necessarily transitioning from anywhere. >:(
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 09:44:07 PM
so how am i wrong sir ?
You where asked what military service you have had, you did not answer.
More than one AF NCO have told you how it is done in the active duty AF, you ignore it. The AF uses sir/ma'am for NCO's, sorry it hurts you so bad to think about that.
I understand what CAP say, if you want to make your cadets call all cadet enlisted members by their name and rank than go for it, but sir/ma'am works just as well.
With all do respect sir i have told every one and the information is listed in front of every one now so how is it wrong when it proves it to be right ?
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 09:52:26 PM
With all do respect sir i have told every one and the information is listed in front of every one now so how is it wrong when it proves it to be right ?
Here's something very, very fundamental you need to learn about CAP now. There are lots of opinions about things floating around out there which turn into legends or "how we've always done it" which then get misconstrued as fact.
Just because it's on a CAP website doesn't make it true.
As an example, the grade abbreviations are wrong. Also, there's no E-4 Sgt in CAP (I think, didn't I see this in another thread somewhere?)
And we're still waiting for an answer to my Q, which I will repeat here, in a more direct fashion:
Do you have any direct military experience? If so, what is it?
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 09:52:26 PM
With all do respect sir i have told every one and the information is listed in front of every one now so how is it wrong when it proves it to be right ?
Which post did you not read? Mr. Moon the information on the web site is not "wrong" per se......but it is not really correct either.
In the USAF we almost never address officers by their rank....as in "Yes Captain, No Captain, right away Captain" nor do we usually address NCO's by their rank.
Sir or Ma'am are what you usually hear.....some time you might also hear "boss" a time or two.
Saying "Yes Master Sergeant" or "Yes Sergeant" are not "wrong".....you just don't hear it that often.
So where you are wrong is where you teach people to say that "Full Rank and Name" is the ONLY way to address NCO's....it is not. Where you also going wrong is where you don't listen to your elders who are trying to keep you from making a fool of yourself. You can do what you want, and you should do what you think is "right".....just remember that us old, been there done that, guys are trying to keep you and all your cadets (and my extention CAP) from looking stupid.
End of rank....breaking off, RTB, Out.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 14, 2011, 09:58:27 PM
As an example, the grade abbreviations are wrong. Also, there's no E-4 Sgt in CAP (I think, didn't I see this in another thread somewhere?)
Actually there is an E-4 Sgt in CAP. Part of that screwed CAP NCO program...it has not been updated since they did away with the E-4 Sgt rank in the USAF.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 14, 2011, 10:05:21 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 14, 2011, 09:58:27 PM
As an example, the grade abbreviations are wrong. Also, there's no E-4 Sgt in CAP (I think, didn't I see this in another thread somewhere?)
Actually there is an E-4 Sgt in CAP. Part of that screwed CAP NCO program...it has not been updated since they did away with the E-4 Sgt rank in the USAF.
Actually, Mr. Harris >:D , the latest CAPR 35-5 shows CAP NCO grades only down through SSgt.
Quote from: SarDragon on September 14, 2011, 10:14:10 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 14, 2011, 10:05:21 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 14, 2011, 09:58:27 PM
As an example, the grade abbreviations are wrong. Also, there's no E-4 Sgt in CAP (I think, didn't I see this in another thread somewhere?)
Actually there is an E-4 Sgt in CAP. Part of that screwed CAP NCO program...it has not been updated since they did away with the E-4 Sgt rank in the USAF.
Actually, Mr. Harris >:D , the latest CAPR 35-5 shows CAP NCO grades only down through SSgt.
Well.....don't let it be said I am never wrong and can't admit it! ;D
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 14, 2011, 09:52:26 PM
With all due respect sir, I have told everyone, and the information is listed infront of everyone now so how is it wrong when it proves it to be right ?
I gotta be honest, I tried to correct the grammar here, and I couldn't. What were you trying to say?
It's post count trolling. Thats it. Ya'll are being taken for a ride. ;) 'Matt Moon' must be an adopted character name.
Probably.
Nco=non-commisioned OFFICER :P >:D
Just throwing that out there
Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bYiLol6XbE
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 15, 2011, 12:09:22 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bYiLol6XbE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bYiLol6XbE)
And?
We're still waiting for your answer to my Q.
Quote from: Matt Moon on September 15, 2011, 12:09:22 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bYiLol6XbE
Yes, that's the army, once again i will tell you...
NOT ALL THE BRANCHS DO THE SAME THING. The AF is different from the army or navy. Simple...or it should be...
oh, BTW, ill ask again, what is your military experience?
It appears that he is ignoring us. He also appears to be ignoring a PM from me.