Up or out

[Garibaldi]

I know we've discussed cadet progress and lack of it, but what if a SM stalls for whatever reason? Is there an up or out policy for SMs? I probably should know this...

The reason I ask is that I have no plans to progress any further than I have already. I don't possess a BA/BS so doing an extension course is out. I cannot afford to take a week off for RSC. I am quite content to stay where I am and take as many PD courses as necessary, but going to Level 5 and staying there for eternity (I lack the ambition, leadership ability and the desire to command) just doesn't appeal if there is nowhere left to go. I mean, as long as there is the bogus carrot of advancement beyond Major dangling ahead of me, I'm good. At some point I probably will suck it up and go to RSC, but if there is nowhere left after Lt Col, I don't really want to do it.

I'm sure I'll get tossed under some bus or at the rabid dogs for this, but as I mentioned before, I am a doer, not an administrator or commander. A grunt, if you will. Command doesn't appeal to me whatsoever. I have never wanted to be a squadron, group, wing, or region commander, much less National CC so I don't really see the point in proceeding to Level 5 for me.

Besides all that, "Colonel Estes" just doesn't ring as well as "Major Estes".

[SarDragon]

There is no policy that I've ever heard of. I spent 14 years as a Captain, of my own accord, and have been a Major now for 11.

I think if that policy did exist, there would be a huge number of senior members exiting. We each have our own reasons for not promoting past a certain point, and forcing the issue would, IMHO, hurt the organization.

[Eclipse]

There's no policy, not even an unwritten one, beyond positive peer pressure.

Members exist at the intersection of "their interest" and their "commander's tolerance".

Personally, I think this is to the detriment of the organization as a whole, and turns the PD into
an optional, arguably irrelevant exercise.

I don't know how you could implement an "up or out" in a volunteer paradigm, though I think
clearing out the silver oaks, and members knowing they have a finite clock on their membership
might spur people to do more, not to mention force a constant stream of new guys.

It would also limit or negate the empty-shirt silver oaks that tend to pile up in the corners of the
organization, giving us an unfair "seasoned" appearance to the casual observer.

It's an interesting paradigm.  Run full-boat in the military or most jobs for 10 or 15 years
and you're considered a success, leave CAP after the same amount of time and many people
will view you as a "quitter" (or some feel that way personally).

It all points to a serious lack of strategic planning and willingness to just let people
pinball all over the organization doing whatever they want (or don't want).

And then we wonder why we're always short-handed, lack leadership, and many are poorly motivated.

Self-actualization is no way to run a national organization of any kind, especially one
which purports to train youth and save lives.

[a2capt]

You can only go so far, only so many are ever going to get the Bird. Do the rest of us just quit then?

[coudano]

The goal of CAP membership isn't to "get the birds" (or the stars)

It's to perform missions for america (Emergency Services, Cadet Program, and Aerospace Education)



You can command as a 1st LT.
And you can be a ground pounding GTL and squadron assistant logistics officer as a bird colonel.



At the end of the day, what i'm saying, is that under the current regime, rank doesn't matter.


Derive your satisfaction from your participation in the missions.
That's what matters.

[Garibaldi]

That's the issue. I wasn't sure what the policy was, if there even was one. There are a lot of Lt Colonels and not enough places for them. Thinking the NCO corps should take care of some of this, with us younger folks and operators filling the NCO slots and the officer slots being filled by admin and mission base staff. At least, that is my opinion. Having an NCO corps with progression would eliminate a lot of dead end careers.

[Panache]

That's the issue. I wasn't sure what the policy was, if there even was one. There are a lot of Lt Colonels and not enough places for them. Thinking the NCO corps should take care of some of this, with us younger folks and operators filling the NCO slots and the officer slots being filled by admin and mission base staff. At least, that is my opinion. Having an NCO corps with progression would eliminate a lot of dead end careers.

And that's why we have the Lt. Colonels-serving-coffee-at-the-Squadron-meeting phenomena.

That beings said, I've never experienced any sort of "up-or-out" pressure, and I suspect I'll be happy staying a Captain.  I have no desire to do any sort of large-scale administrative functions for CAP.

Where I see this maybe being a problem is the newly-designed NCO Corps, with it's quota system.

[SunDog]

I am a doer, not an administrator or commander.

My wing tolerates a lot of us that are aligned with your approach - let the rank ride, contribute as you can, add/improve your speciality skills.  I haven't heard of anyone getting chased out because of it.  Can't speak to other wings, or rogue sqdn CCs, of course.

SLS is probably far enough; make Captain, and do the job that interests you. Seems legit, I think? It may be an easier road to travel for MPs and MOs.  If you turn out when called, put hours on, and stay qual'ed, you "count" for the wings numbers, to get/keep aircraft.  I guess you're an asset in that case, regardless of rank.

But I don't know if that holds true for other areas, like GT, or CP, etc. There are a lot of rules that aren't written down, and some odd ducks with personal agendas to serve.  Maybe check with peers in other sqdns in your wing, see what their exoerience has been, IRT your area of interest?

[AlphaSigOU]

I've completed all five levels in the PD program, and in July I pin on Lt Col; and it'll be highly unlikely if I ever see chickens or stars on my shoulders. I am now on wing staff, having worked at squadron level for several years. But I won't become an 'empty shirt' once I get my silver bottle caps; there will be jobs I can do at whatever level called for, whether at squadron, wing or region level. And I've not served - yet - as a squadron commander.

[Eclipse]

Having an NCO corps with progression would eliminate a lot of dead end careers.

The only thing it will mean is one corner of "seasoned" empty-shirt Chiefs to load-balance the corner of "seasoned" empty-shirt Lt Cols.

[Devil Doc]

I'm sure I'll get tossed under some bus or at the rabid dogs for this, but as I mentioned before, I am a doer, not an administrator or commander. A grunt, if you will. Command doesn't appeal to me whatsoever. I have never wanted to be a squadron, group, wing, or region commander, much less National CC so I don't really see the point in proceeding to Level 5 for me.

Im in the Same Boat. I will have an BA/BS within the next 5 years or so, working on it Slowly. I just want to make the Rail Road Tracks, and leave it at that. I dont care to be an "Administrator" or "Squadron Commander". Id rather be in the Field Ground Pounding then working at Mission Base. I learn all of the skills though because if there is ever an spot that needs filled I can do it. If my squadron dont do anything id say within the next 3-5 years or so. There will be no one to take over Squadron Commander, I sure as heck aint doing it, LOL.

[USMCGunny]

I don't usually throw my two cent in on these forums, but here goes.  I am a new member to CAP.  I am sixty-two years old and a retired Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant.  What attracted me to CAP was Emergency Services and wanting to participate in Missions.  I have opted to keep my retired military grade of E-7, which makes me a Master Sergeant in CAP.

I will be attending Squadron Leadership School this weekend which effectively will complete my Level two qualifications.  I have completed my technician rating for communications and have been assigned as the assistant Comm. Officer for the squadron.  I plan to work hard and complete all my General emergency services qualifications.  With this plan for my CAP career I am fat and happy.  I am just a grunt at heart and mission oriented.  My squadron seems to be happy that when they call me for a mission I'm ready to go.

My Marine Corps Career Path: http://marines.togetherweserved.com/bio/Roger.Sanchez

[FlyTiger77]

Perhaps my perspective is a little different from most I have read on this thread, but while folks are content to just come in and do the job they enjoy (MP, MO, GTL, etc)--and those jobs are the important ones--the other, less glamorous and possibly less enjoyable ones still have to be done by someone. If not you, who? Probably someone who would rather be doing the cool jobs, too.

I see PD progression as an opportunity to become a contributor to the running of the organization, without which the 'fun' jobs can't be supported. I encourage folks after they get their feet wet to look at taking on one of the 'overhead' positions (admin, personnel, logistics, etc) in addition to the high-speed, low-drag positions. Otherwise, a small cadre has to stay inside and keep house while the rest of the kids get to go out and play.

In my perfect world, a member has three jobs each: a mission position (MP, MO, GTL, GTM, etc), a mission base staff position (you need to have something to do between sorties anyway!), and a unit 'overhead' position. That sort of spreads the wealth and lets everyone play.

[USMCGunny]

Catch-22 isn't it?  Without missions I guess we would just be a cadet program.  What I was saying about retaining my grade of Master Sergeant, still goes.  I am filling a Staff position as Squdron Assistant Comm. "O", only not as an officer.  All jobs in CAP are important to the organization.  I am still willing to pitch in and do the job where needed.  Some people just like grunt work while others aspire to move up and fill the Group, Wing and HQs corporate positions, I am thankful for them.

Lets not forget we are also volunteers.  While I am retired and have more time than most I can understand where some who are still working and with young families can only do so much.  Still even I still have a wife and grandchildren and obligations outside of CAP.  I can truly say I want to be happy in CAP and not become a victim of burnout.  Yes lets all pitch in and work for the good of our squadrons and CAP and be the best at what positions we can handle. Just my opinion and not meaning any disrespect. 

[Panache]

Perhaps my perspective is a little different from most I have read on this thread, but while folks are content to just come in and do the job they enjoy (MP, MO, GTL, etc)--and those jobs are the important ones--the other, less glamorous and possibly less enjoyable ones still have to be done by someone. If not you, who? Probably someone who would rather be doing the cool jobs, too.

I have to disagree to a certain extent.

I acknowledge that I'm below-average when it comes to strategic organizational planning and large-scale administration.  As such, I feel that the best way I can serve is to play to my strengths, which is more locally-based and "tactically" (used to mean "small-scale") orientated.

[Eclipse]

I am filling a Staff position as Squdron Assistant Comm. "O", only not as an officer.

There is no grade-connected distinction in staff duties, the expectations are exactly the same whether you are without grade, a MSgt, or a General.

The same goes for those "Group, Wing and HQs corporate positions". (There's no such thing as a "corporate" position in CAP below NHQ).

At some level it's all grunt work, or not, depending on your viewpoint, but grade is irrelevant, certainly as the paradigm exists today.
You can rise to CUL / Wing DC and remain without grade, or serve as a unit assistant Comm Officer with Eagles on your shoulder.
The pay and duties are the same.

[FlyTiger77]

I am still willing to pitch in and do the job where needed. 

This is really all the organization can ask for.

(I hope you didn't think my response was directed at you. It wasn't. You just happened to press "Post" just a little sooner than me.)

...I'm below-average..

There are probably some who would contend that I am, too! 

[USMCGunny]

This is really all the organization can ask for.

(I hope you didn't think my response was directed at you. It wasn't. You just happened to press "Post" just a little sooner than me.)

I din't take it personally.  As they used to say in the Corps, 'No sweat GI, payday come soon, LOL!!   

[SunDog]

Catch-22 isn't it?  Without missions I guess we would just be a cadet program.  What I was saying about retaining my grade of Master Sergeant, still goes.  I am filling a Staff position as Squdron Assistant Comm. "O", only not as an officer.  All jobs in CAP are important to the organization.  I am still willing to pitch in and do the job where needed.  Some people just like grunt work while others aspire to move up and fill the Group, Wing and HQs corporate positions, I am thankful for them.

Lets not forget we are also volunteers.  While I am retired and have more time than most I can understand where some who are still working and with young families can only do so much.  Still even I still have a wife and grandchildren and obligations outside of CAP.  I can truly say I want to be happy in CAP and not become a victim of burnout.  Yes lets all pitch in and work for the good of our squadrons and CAP and be the best at what positions we can handle. Just my opinion and not meaning any disrespect.

Yep, I don't think we have a shortage of folks who want to be in charge, organize, etc.  I know it can be a load on 'em. I suspect a bunch of 'em actually lke that stuff, at least to some degree. For a while, anyway!

But getting and staying proficient in aircrew, especially MP, takes a lot of time.  At least for me, anyway. . .I'm not sure, but I'm under the impression that's also the case for Ground Team, above entry level.  No substitute for actually doing it, and doing it is very time consuming.  As is, I'm not likely to fly CAP on Saturday and then volunteer for something CP related on Sunday.  I'm still working full time. An older LtCol warned me that CAP will eat every hour you're williing to give them.  pace yourself was his advice.

[Brit_in_CAP]

An older LtCol warned me that CAP will eat every hour you're williing to give them.  pace yourself was his advice.

:clap: :clap:

I got that advice as well!

As it happens...from an older Lt Col