Inappropriate CAP Cadet Survey

[THRAWN]

In that case, CAP should be contacting the parents to gather the information they need, not the cadets.

And we've arrived back at the beginning...

Here's a quick sketch of how the word could have been spread:
NHQ puts out a notice of this survey coming out to all unit commanders. Unit commanders email the members of their units and the parents to tell them about the survey. If the parents didn't provide an email contact, pick up the doggone phone and call them (I know, how 20th century...) to inform them of the survey. Brief it at opening and closing. Send something home with the cadets to the parents.....

Shrugging your shoulders and saying "I don't have an email for Cadet Tenthumbs' parents...guess I can't contact them!" is a failure as a commander. Face it, most units are complaining that they don't have a huge roster, so making time to literally call every single home should take less than a Saturday. It's be a great opportunity to test out the emergency contact roster.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Never said there was. You might want to actually read what you're commenting on. My position is and will be that it is in appropriate to contact children directly without notifying their parents that it is being done.

Now, now.

That's a gem. CPP be [darn]ed, the Umbrella Corporation NEEDS this information!. Did it ever occur to anyone that sending this type of survey out to kids will lead to discussions within families that they may not be willing or prepared to have? I realize that being trans-whatever is the shiny ball of tinfoil that we should all be focused on right now, but this should have been routed through the commanders to the parents, not the kids.

Along with the other posts right above, THIS attitude is why it matters.


Not willing or unprepared to have the discussion with your kid? That's your choice. Guarantee it, if your 13+ year old didn't already know about this, they clicked male or female and moved on. Perhaps they googled it. But chances are, with your views on this, whether your kid is or isn't transgender, they won't be coming to you to ask about it. Sleep well tonight!But as to your condescending description of this perceived "issue", would you say that to a persons face?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Here's a quick sketch of how the word could have been spread:
NHQ puts out a notice of this survey coming out to all unit commanders. Unit commanders email the members of their units and the parents to tell them about the survey. If the parents didn't provide an email contact, pick up the doggone phone and call them (I know, how 20th century...) to inform them of the survey. Brief it at opening and closing. Send something home with the cadets to the parents.....

Shrugging your shoulders and saying "I don't have an email for Cadet Tenthumbs' parents...guess I can't contact them!" is a failure as a commander. Face it, most units are complaining that they don't have a huge roster, so making time to literally call every single home should take less than a Saturday. It's be a great opportunity to test out the emergency contact roster.

Less than a Saturday? How about you be responsible for yours, and I'll spend my day off with mine? Teach your kid to share information? Ask about what was talked about/announced at the meeting on the drive home?


I'm guessing you're one of the people here who are against the "village", so take the responsibility to be on top of your own kid and teach them to communicate with you. Don't pass it on to the volunteers who provide a service to you and yours.

[FW]

It's amazing how this thread devolved.  All I'm hearing now is Blah, Blah, Blah...

FACT:  CAP sent out a survey to it's Cadet members.
FACT:  no one had to answer the survey
FACT:  some parents are upset.
FACT: CAP knew of the possible consequences.
FACT: members and parents will do what they will do; CAP wishes all well, and will continue to perform in it's best interest.
FACT: I'm enjoying my popcorn.... 

[Майор Хаткевич]

It's amazing how this thread devolved.  All I'm hearing now is Blah, Blah, Blah...

FACT:  CAP sent out a survey to it's Cadet members.
FACT:  no one had to answer the survey
FACT:  some parents are upset.
FACT: CAP knew of the possible consequences.
FACT: members and parents will do what they will do; CAP wishes all well, and will continue to perform in it's best interest.
FACT: I'm enjoying my popcorn.... 

Perhaps we should do an automated phone survey to see how many parents are upset.

[Storm Chaser]

In that case, CAP should be contacting the parents to gather the information they need, not the cadets.

Talk with a transgender teen with parents that do not accept it.  The responses of the parent and the teen will be different.  It is sometimes better to get the information from the primary source.

Also, a teen may not always tell the parent until he/she is ready for the hormone therapies or needs the letter from a physician (depends on state).

Let's think about this for a second. The only reason CAP would need this information is to develop some kind of policy and accommodation for these cadets. What would those be? Exceptions to the uniform policy? Overnight accommodations? Any of these would require parental consent. So, why not involve the parents to begin with? If this is a sensitive (and controversial) issue that cannot be resolved at home, then there's not much that CAP can or should do. It's not our place.

[Майор Хаткевич]

In that case, CAP should be contacting the parents to gather the information they need, not the cadets.

Talk with a transgender teen with parents that do not accept it.  The responses of the parent and the teen will be different.  It is sometimes better to get the information from the primary source.

Also, a teen may not always tell the parent until he/she is ready for the hormone therapies or needs the letter from a physician (depends on state).

Let's think about this for a second. The only reason CAP would need this information is to develop some kind of policy and accommodation for these cadets. What would those be? Exceptions to the uniform policy? Overnight accommodations? Any of these would require parental consent. So, why not involve the parents to begin with? If this is a sensitive (and controversial) issue that cannot be resolved at home, then there's not much that CAP can or should do. It's not our place.

It is our place to deal with it when the parents who do have the bandwidth to address/resolve said "issue" at home, have no problem with their kid in CAP.

[Cadetter]

Warning: Lengthy post.
All questions on the survey are below (I think). I'm a cadet, by the way, and the parents' survey is identical except for wording (like 'your cadet' instead of 'you').

1. This survey is designed for Civil Air Patrol cadets. (I am a CAP cadet, age 13 or older.), (I am a CAP cadet, age 12 or younger.), (I am not a CAP cadet.)
2. What is your gender? (Female), (Male), (Transgender)
3. How old are you?
4. What race do you identify with?  Please check all that apply. (White), (Black/ African American), (American Indian/ Alaskan Native), (Asian), (Native Hawaiian/ Other Pacific Islander), (Other race - _____)
5. Do you identify as Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish? (No, not of Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin), (Yes, Mexican, Mexican-American, or Chicano), (Yes, Puerto Rican), (Yes, Cuban), (Yes, another Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin)
6. What is your GPA in school, approximately? (Less than 2.0 (C's and below)), (2.0 to 3.0 (B's and C's)), (3.0 to 4.0 (A's and B's)), (Higher than 4.0 (Straight A's)), (Not applicable: I am not attending school right now.)
7. Do you have any conditions that limit your ability to walk, run, or otherwise participate in physical activities? (Yes), (No), (Not sure)
8. Do you have any disability or disorder that might affect your school work or employment?  For example, ADHD, dyslexia, and autism are common types of disabilities or disorders. (Yes), (No), (Not sure)
9. Are your parents CAP members? (My father is a CAP member.), (My mother is a CAP member.),(Both of my parents are CAP members.),(Neither of my parents are CAP members.)
10. Do you receive free or reduced-price lunches at school? (Yes), (No), (Not sure), (Not applicable)
11. Do you come from a single parent household? (Yes), (No)
12. Thinking about the last year or so, how often have you typically participated in Cadet activities during the school year?
Off and on, irregularly due to other interests or commitments
A few times per month
Nearly every week, but rarely on weekends
Nearly every week, plus some weekends
13. What is your grade in the CAP Cadet Program?
14. What is your squadron's charter number?  (i.e. CA-123)
15. What city is your squadron located in?
16. Suppose that you could do just what you'd like and nothing stood in your way. Please look at the choices below, and mark the thing that you would most want to do.
Attend technical or vocational school.
Serve in the armed forces.
Graduate from a 2-year college program.
Graduate from a 4-year college program.
Attend graduate or professional school after college.
None of the above.
17. The following questions ask you about your awareness of different career paths. (Too many answers to include)
18. The following questions ask you about your interest in different career paths.  How interested are you in the following career paths? (Not including answers here, too long)
19. The following questions ask you about your feelings towards the CAP Cadet Program. (Generic, not including answers)
20. If you had your choice and nothing else could get in the way, how often would you like to attend Cadet activities during this school year? (Generic answers)
21. The following questions ask about your teamwork skills. (Generic)
22. The following questions ask about your skills related to military customs and culture. (Generic)
23. The following questions ask about how you relate to CAP Senior Members. (Generic)
24. The following questions ask about how you think about yourself. Options are Strongly disagree, disagree, neutral, agree, strongly agree
I feel that I'm a person of worth, at least on an equal plane with others.    
I feel that I have a number of good qualities.
All in all, I am inclined to feel that I am a failure.
25. During the past 7 days, on how many days were you physically active for a total of at least 60 minutes per day?  Add up all of the time that you spend in any kind of physical activity that increased your heart rate and made you breathe hard at least some of the time.
26. How many days a week do you eat breakfast?
27. In general, how healthy is your diet?
28. The following questions are about your relationships to CAP peers. (Generic)
29. The following questions are about your attitudes on drugs, alcohol, and tobacco. (Generic illegal drugs survey)
30. The following questions are about your attitudes on community service. (Generic community service questions)
31. Did you attend an encampment in the Summer of 2015
32. Was this the first time you attended Encampment?
33. At Encampment, did you participate as an in-ranks student or Cadet Cadre (staff) member?
Student Cadet
Cadet Cadre
34. What state was your Encampment located in this year?
35. About how many friends from your hometown squadron attended Encampment with you this year?
Zero
1-2
3 to 5
5 or more
36. Did you receive a full or partial scholarship to attend Encampment this year?
Yes
No
37. Did you attend all of Encampment this year?
Yes, I attended the full Encampment and graduated.
No, I was not able to complete the Encampment this year.
38. If you were not able to complete Encampment this year, what was the reason?
39. Would you like to tell us anything more that would clarify any of your answers in this survey?

ETA: The survey still permits one to continue in the survey if some or all of the questions aren't answered.

[Storm Chaser]

In that case, CAP should be contacting the parents to gather the information they need, not the cadets.

Talk with a transgender teen with parents that do not accept it.  The responses of the parent and the teen will be different.  It is sometimes better to get the information from the primary source.

Also, a teen may not always tell the parent until he/she is ready for the hormone therapies or needs the letter from a physician (depends on state).

Let's think about this for a second. The only reason CAP would need this information is to develop some kind of policy and accommodation for these cadets. What would those be? Exceptions to the uniform policy? Overnight accommodations? Any of these would require parental consent. So, why not involve the parents to begin with? If this is a sensitive (and controversial) issue that cannot be resolved at home, then there's not much that CAP can or should do. It's not our place.

It is our place to deal with it when the parents who do have the bandwidth to address/resolve said "issue" at home, have no problem with their kid in CAP.

And that's why we should involve the parents in these types of discussions.

[Майор Хаткевич]

In that case, CAP should be contacting the parents to gather the information they need, not the cadets.

Talk with a transgender teen with parents that do not accept it.  The responses of the parent and the teen will be different.  It is sometimes better to get the information from the primary source.

Also, a teen may not always tell the parent until he/she is ready for the hormone therapies or needs the letter from a physician (depends on state).

Let's think about this for a second. The only reason CAP would need this information is to develop some kind of policy and accommodation for these cadets. What would those be? Exceptions to the uniform policy? Overnight accommodations? Any of these would require parental consent. So, why not involve the parents to begin with? If this is a sensitive (and controversial) issue that cannot be resolved at home, then there's not much that CAP can or should do. It's not our place.

It is our place to deal with it when the parents who do have the bandwidth to address/resolve said "issue" at home, have no problem with their kid in CAP.

And that's why we should involve the parents in these types of discussions.

And we will if it comes to it.

[Storm Chaser]

In that case, CAP should be contacting the parents to gather the information they need, not the cadets.

Talk with a transgender teen with parents that do not accept it.  The responses of the parent and the teen will be different.  It is sometimes better to get the information from the primary source.

Also, a teen may not always tell the parent until he/she is ready for the hormone therapies or needs the letter from a physician (depends on state).

Let's think about this for a second. The only reason CAP would need this information is to develop some kind of policy and accommodation for these cadets. What would those be? Exceptions to the uniform policy? Overnight accommodations? Any of these would require parental consent. So, why not involve the parents to begin with? If this is a sensitive (and controversial) issue that cannot be resolved at home, then there's not much that CAP can or should do. It's not our place.

It is our place to deal with it when the parents who do have the bandwidth to address/resolve said "issue" at home, have no problem with their kid in CAP.

And that's why we should involve the parents in these types of discussions.

And we will if it comes to it.

If? It already came to that. CAP asked questions in a survey that some parents found objectionable. And, whether you agree with them or not, that's their parental right.

[Spam]

From the Advanced Course Content:

P. 12, [graphic]: "Come in, We're Open" sign.

"Parents & Open Access to CAP Activities
CAP is proud of its cadet programs and has absolutely nothing to hide from parents who want to know more about what their child is doing, or have a special concern about a particular aspect of a cadet activity... [paragraphs on parental observation of classes, meeting supervisory adults, asking questions, etc.]... The bottom line is that open access and a spirit of transparency helps CAP earn parents' trust, which is a prerequisite in keeping their children safe".

I'd like to follow the guidance of the module to "assume the best" intent, that sending this to cadets without parental contacts listed was simply an oversight, but the feedback I've got so far to my original post (and the sentiments of others) indicate that CAP officially hasn't any problem with discounting my concerns.

Spam

[Spam]

Captain H:

Fair enough on correction of my signature.  I apologize for the inconsistency of my message.

Here's where I think you and I both went wrong: 
On the boundary concern issue, (p. 9 of the CPPT basic course content) I raised honest concerns regarding electronic communication with cadets contrary to the CAP standards of practice, and based on the tone and content of your inputs here I felt that you were lacking in respect "Failing to respond to another person's boundary concern", p.10. What I want to do is make sure that neither of us (none of us) go further in breaking the manners and professionalism boundary, number 4, defined as "Disparaging other CAP adult leaders in front of cadets".

People get emotional regarding their offspring when others start pitching in such comments, and I apologize for my part in reacting emotionally to your comments.

Thanks for your service to CAP,
Spam

[abdsp51]

Are you a parent?

That's by far one of the most insulting things in this thread.


Does one need to be a parent to have common sense? How about working with cadets?

It's not about common sense it's about respect and decency of communicating with parents about things.  Since you are not a parent you're not going to get it.  Let's try this say hypothetically you have a child accused of a crime do you want LE talking to your child asking incriminating questions without YOU as the parent in the know?  Or how about a teacher having a discussion or lesson in their class on a topic that you do not want your child expose too.

I get where Spam is coming from on this and honestly, if Ma Blue wanted they data fine, but honestly this survey is better off going to the cadets parents who are going to be more in the know about the type of information being requested than lil Jack and Jill. 

Having taken surveys by the Rand Corp for Ma Blue it is very easy to skew the data and therefor skew the results.  And honestly if my child has a disability depending on the nature of it it's no one's business but mine, his/her's and the Dr who renders treatment.  It is not CAP's, some third party org hired by Ma Blue or Ma Blue's. 

When you have children some day then you will understand where people are coming from. 

[Robb Ottenhoff]

Captain H:

Fair enough on correction of my signature.  I apologize for the inconsistency of my message.

Here's where I think you and I both went wrong: 
On the boundary concern issue, (p. 9 of the CPPT basic course content) I raised honest concerns regarding electronic communication with cadets contrary to the CAP standards of practice, and based on the tone and content of your inputs here I felt that you were lacking in respect "Failing to respond to another person's boundary concern", p.10. What I want to do is make sure that neither of us (none of us) go further in breaking the manners and professionalism boundary, number 4, defined as "Disparaging other CAP adult leaders in front of cadets".

People get emotional regarding their offspring when others start pitching in such comments, and I apologize for my part in reacting emotionally to your comments.

Thanks for your service to CAP,
Spam

This thread has been... intense, but this reply is an example of what makes me proud to be a part of OUR organization.   We'll go to the mat, bring all of our passion to the conversation, but in the end, we stand together, respecting each other and taking personal responsibility for OUR organization moving forward, together.

I have never been prouder to be a member of CAP, and even CAPTalk, than I am at this moment.   

Thank you.

[SarDragon]

Does having a child miraculously give people wisdom? A special club card?

Not exactly, but becoming a parent is much different from herding cadets as a CAP SM. You can think of the cadets as "your kids" all you want, but until you have your own, you can't really know what parenting is truly all about. Being a sibling counts a little, but not enough. In either of these situations, there's always someone else really "in charge". That's the parent.

I was a cadet for 6 years, and a single SM for 9 more. My world turned upside-down when my first daughter was born. Now I was the one "in charge". When you have your first child, you'll see. We mostly all do.

That said, I'm otherwise not taking sides here. It's just a view from the parents' balcony.

[NIN]

Captain H:

Fair enough on correction of my signature.  I apologize for the inconsistency of my message.

Here's where I think you and I both went wrong: 
On the boundary concern issue, (p. 9 of the CPPT basic course content) I raised honest concerns regarding electronic communication with cadets contrary to the CAP standards of practice, and based on the tone and content of your inputs here I felt that you were lacking in respect "Failing to respond to another person's boundary concern", p.10. What I want to do is make sure that neither of us (none of us) go further in breaking the manners and professionalism boundary, number 4, defined as "Disparaging other CAP adult leaders in front of cadets".

People get emotional regarding their offspring when others start pitching in such comments, and I apologize for my part in reacting emotionally to your comments.

Thanks for your service to CAP,
Spam

You, sir, win at the Internets today.

Nice job.  Lot of heated commentary in here, but man (and I know this from experience) it is not easy to back off and say "OK, cool, we're good.."

[thebeggerpie]

Some sites list up to 58 different genders. On Tumblr, one can easily get up to the hundreds in the varying genders(Whether all 100+ are actually legitimate and not just made up for fun is another question.).


Wouldn't it just be easier to have everybody just type in their gender? Auto-Capitalization with Spell-check, no drag down boxes or things to click. Saves any sort of hassle regarding parents(WHICH I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE WITH, don't get me wrong.) and lets those that identify differently to put whatever they want in.


Just a thought for CAP HQ and the Rand Corp.
 

[Майор Хаткевич]

If? It already came to that. CAP asked questions in a survey that some parents found objectionable. And, whether you agree with them or not, that's their parental right.

We'll deal with the accommodations if and when it comes to that. Don't put words in my mouth. Find anything you want objectionable, but I sincerely doubt you'd say that to a transgender persons face, so I'll reserve my opinion on "overblown" until it somehow miraculously affects those with concerns. To clarify, if your kid isn't trans-gendered, what's your concern here?

From the Advanced Course Content:

Fully agreed, which is why information was sent out weeks in advance to CCs and DCPs, and parents who had current contact info got the info as well...

Captain H:


Fair enough on correction of my signature.  I apologize for the inconsistency of my message.


Here's where I think you and I both went wrong: 
On the boundary concern issue, (p. 9 of the CPPT basic course content) I raised honest concerns regarding electronic communication with cadets contrary to the CAP standards of practice, and based on the tone and content of your inputs here I felt that you were lacking in respect "Failing to respond to another person's boundary concern", p.10. What I want to do is make sure that neither of us (none of us) go further in breaking the manners and professionalism boundary, number 4, defined as "Disparaging other CAP adult leaders in front of cadets".


People get emotional regarding their offspring when others start pitching in such comments, and I apologize for my part in reacting emotionally to your comments.


Thanks for your service to CAP,
Spam

Guess we'll agree to disagree in terms of this being a "boundary concern". I've already quoted the relevant section on online communications, which, quite frankly, this wasn't. The regulations pertain to say, me, communicating one on one with a cadet. In which case I'll copy my CC, not the parent. If the parents are worried about my communications with the cadet, they are always free to check their kids email, and talk to my boss who gets all email copies. I'm not denying anyone their parental rights of control over what their kids are "exposed" to. But the word Transgender is neither scandalous, nor something most kids haven't heard of. It's listed in a list. No explanations, no obligations. They either put down Male, Female, or Transgender (or nothing), and no one will know. Outside of that, I'll carry on working with the cadets, and assume you'll carry on doing your CAP passion as well.

It's not about common sense it's about respect and decency of communicating with parents about things.  Since you are not a parent you're not going to get it.  Let's try this say hypothetically you have a child accused of a crime do you want LE talking to your child asking incriminating questions without YOU as the parent in the know?  Or how about a teacher having a discussion or lesson in their class on a topic that you do not want your child expose too.


I get where Spam is coming from on this and honestly, if Ma Blue wanted they data fine, but honestly this survey is better off going to the cadets parents who are going to be more in the know about the type of information being requested than lil Jack and Jill. 


Having taken surveys by the Rand Corp for Ma Blue it is very easy to skew the data and therefor skew the results.  And honestly if my child has a disability depending on the nature of it it's no one's business but mine, his/her's and the Dr who renders treatment.  It is not CAP's, some third party org hired by Ma Blue or Ma Blue's. 
When you have children some day then you will understand where people are coming from.

Are we really going to compare an anonymous survey with LEO interrogation with potential self-incrimination? Or going to the point of accusing teachers of teaching "bad" things?


Parents got the survey. Notification went out weeks earlier. NHQ predicted some people might get a bit uncomfortable. Doesn't mean anything was violated or ruined. None of those questions were "kid breaking", nor out of line with any questions that come up when a cadet signs up, and participates week to week.




People need to understand that opinions are just that, and there's no "right to not be offended". Would this even be an issue if the letters "transgender" weren't on the page? If you don't like it, teach your kids to share these things with you. Or email NHQ, and let them know. Ask for a policy where you get copies on ALL NHQ communications. Just don't forget to update your email address!

[abdsp51]

I get where Spam is coming from on this and honestly, if Ma Blue wanted they data fine, but honestly this survey is better off going to the cadets parents who are going to be more in the know about the type of information being requested than lil Jack and Jill. 


Having taken surveys by the Rand Corp for Ma Blue it is very easy to skew the data and therefor skew the results.  And honestly if my child has a disability depending on the nature of it it's no one's business but mine, his/her's and the Dr who renders treatment.  It is not CAP's, some third party org hired by Ma Blue or Ma Blue's. 
When you have children some day then you will understand where people are coming from.

Are we really going to compare an anonymous survey with LEO interrogation with potential self-incrimination? Or going to the point of accusing teachers of teaching "bad" things?


Parents got the survey. Notification went out weeks earlier. NHQ predicted some people might get a bit uncomfortable. Doesn't mean anything was violated or ruined. None of those questions were "kid breaking", nor out of line with any questions that come up when a cadet signs up, and participates week to week.




People need to understand that opinions are just that, and there's no "right to not be offended". Would this even be an issue if the letters "transgender" weren't on the page? If you don't like it, teach your kids to share these things with you. Or email NHQ, and let them know. Ask for a policy where you get copies on ALL NHQ communications. Just don't forget to update your email address!
[/quote]

Really how many parents?  How many CC's got notified it was going out?  Bottom line this is something that should have been sent to parents to fill out and parents have the right to oversee what their child is exposed to.  But wait you're not a parent so you don't get it.