Inappropriate CAP Cadet Survey

[vorteks]

CAP has other issues to address, vital to its survival rather than embracing movements, efforts outside of it boundaries.
Must have come with being part of the Total Force package.

Air Force: "Hey, CAP, we want to get more of your cadets to 'summer camp'.  Will half a mill help?"
CAP: "Oh, heck yeah it will!"
Air Force: "Great. BTW, cuz this is a lot more than, you know, some books or an orientation ride or two, our data people are gonna want to know more about how the money was spent, on whom, etc, you know, to be sure we're getting the most bang for the buck."
CAP: "Oh, uh, yeah, sure. I mean, we get that: you're giving us like 500Gs, you probably want to know that we're not blowing it on laptops and stuff, right?"
Air Force: "exactly. We just want to make sure that when we spend the money, it is effective, fairly distributed, etc. We might want some demographics data, that kind of thing, so we can say to Congress things like 'Yo, look at all the disadvantaged cadets we helped out' and 'We assisted over x number of cadets who are already on public assistance..' or whatever."
CAP: "Yeah! When do we get that big check that we can take a picture of?"

I'm sure it didn't go quite like that, but when the US Government gives you $$$, there are *always* strings attached.

I have a customer that does STEM events for the US Navy & Army.  Middle & High School students (some college).  They have similar surveys they use that generate their necessary demographics to be able to say "We're not just helping out the rich kids, here, you know.."

Doesn't at all justify or address the issue of circumventing the parents of minor children. Parents may provide as much or as little demographic information as we want.

[NIN]

You're correct. I didn't address that (and meant to).

I guess my point there is probably someone at the AF level, talking to the nice folks at RAND, were probably not thinking entirely about "hey, these are *minors*."

But they're also looking at the "integrity" of the survey. Are we surveying the participants or their parents?  Those are, really, entirely different population sets.  So a parent responding is a different set of responses, from a statistical & demographic rigor standpoint, than those provided by the cadet.  I took two stats classes in college and my two takeaways from that were "What you assume to be true about stats probably isn't," and "When you need stats, hire someone who knows what they're doing."

So yeah, there is a problem there with the methods used. I get it. My son is 14, and were he a cadet, I would not have an issue with that survey for the stated purpose, but that's me. Others might, and thats their prerogative.

But it seems we (the collective "we," encompassing CAP, RAND and the AF, not the "we" of CAP-Talk) could have probably done a little better job on the front-end letting people know this is coming and the reasons why, mostly to cut down on this tempest in a teapot that we're seeing now.

[THRAWN]

You're correct. I didn't address that (and meant to).

I guess my point there is probably someone at the AF level, talking to the nice folks at RAND, were probably not thinking entirely about "hey, these are *minors*."

But they're also looking at the "integrity" of the survey. Are we surveying the participants or their parents?  Those are, really, entirely different population sets.  So a parent responding is a different set of responses, from a statistical & demographic rigor standpoint, than those provided by the cadet.  I took two stats classes in college and my two takeaways from that were "What you assume to be true about stats probably isn't," and "When you need stats, hire someone who knows what they're doing."

So yeah, there is a problem there with the methods used. I get it. My son is 14, and were he a cadet, I would not have an issue with that survey for the stated purpose, but that's me. Others might, and thats their prerogative.

But it seems we (the collective "we," encompassing CAP, RAND and the AF, not the "we" of CAP-Talk) could have probably done a little better job on the front-end letting people know this is coming and the reasons why, mostly to cut down on this tempest in a teapot that we're seeing now.

According to this:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/RAND_survey_B4AB10DF8908D.pdf

the survey was supposed to be conducted to include cadets AND parents. Were parents included? If not, why?

[NIN]

You're correct. I didn't address that (and meant to).

I guess my point there is probably someone at the AF level, talking to the nice folks at RAND, were probably not thinking entirely about "hey, these are *minors*."

But they're also looking at the "integrity" of the survey. Are we surveying the participants or their parents?  Those are, really, entirely different population sets.  So a parent responding is a different set of responses, from a statistical & demographic rigor standpoint, than those provided by the cadet.  I took two stats classes in college and my two takeaways from that were "What you assume to be true about stats probably isn't," and "When you need stats, hire someone who knows what they're doing."

So yeah, there is a problem there with the methods used. I get it. My son is 14, and were he a cadet, I would not have an issue with that survey for the stated purpose, but that's me. Others might, and thats their prerogative.

But it seems we (the collective "we," encompassing CAP, RAND and the AF, not the "we" of CAP-Talk) could have probably done a little better job on the front-end letting people know this is coming and the reasons why, mostly to cut down on this tempest in a teapot that we're seeing now.

According to this:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/RAND_survey_B4AB10DF8908D.pdf

the survey was supposed to be conducted to include cadets AND parents. Were parents included? If not, why?

Hmmm. Yeah.  My point from above is that really these are two different population sets who might have two similar but essentially different sets of answers.

As a sq bubba, I don't *always* have a parent's email unless they give it to me. I'm not even completely certain I can easily track it in eServices (unless its the "Secondary Email" in a cadet's contact record, and then it is not clear whether thats the cadet's email or mom/dad's email) to any degree of accuracy.  I'm not sure where they might have gotten a parental email unless it was somehow collected at the time the CEAP vouchers were handled.

[CAPDCCMOM]

It was sent to parents. In the case of my son, we were also sent the survey. If when parents signed their cadet up they failed to include a parent e-mail as was requested, it did not go to the parent . Parents need to go to e-service with their cadet and update the contact information.

[JC004]

As a sq bubba, I don't *always* have a parent's email unless they give it to me. I'm not even completely certain I can easily track it in eServices (unless its the "Secondary Email" in a cadet's contact record, and then it is not clear whether thats the cadet's email or mom/dad's email) to any degree of accuracy.  I'm not sure where they might have gotten a parental email unless it was somehow collected at the time the CEAP vouchers were handled.

The CADET PARENT EMAIL line under contacts appears when it's in the system for the individual.

[Storm Chaser]

In my very personal opinion, questions about gender identity, which go beyond the physical/biological differences between male and female, are inappropriate in CAP. There are currently no CAP regulations recognizing or granting special accommodations to a separate gender group from male and female. So why are we asking this question? Are encampments providing separate dormitories and restroom facilities for genders other than biological male or female? Do we have special uniform provisions? The answer is no. While we need to embrace our core value of respect for everyone, gender identity is not CAP's business.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Holy BATMAN!

Fodder like this is why I have slowly drifted away from CAPTalk.

Are some of you people SERIOUS?

Take personal bias, world view, misinformation, lack of knowledge, and what do you get? This type of topic.

Seems to me, the main issue is the fact that some people are opposed to the word "transgender", others have no idea what an anonymous survey means, what HIPPA is, or what CAP regulations are and how they read and work. Some are SO disconnected from their cadet activities as parents to not even HAVE an email in eservices along with their cadets, and then blame CAP for this?

Who are you people?

Want to blame someone in CAP? Blame the DCPs and Unit Commanders who didn't mention this. Or perhaps they did mention it, and no one was interested in listening. Happens all the time.

Don't like this? Vote with your feet. CAP will be better for it.

[THRAWN]

Holy BATMAN!

Fodder like this is why I have slowly drifted away from CAPTalk.

Are some of you people SERIOUS?

Take personal bias, world view, misinformation, lack of knowledge, and what do you get? This type of topic.

Seems to me, the main issue is the fact that some people are opposed to the word "transgender", others have no idea what an anonymous survey means, what HIPPA is, or what CAP regulations are and how they read and work. Some are SO disconnected from their cadet activities as parents to not even HAVE an email in eservices along with their cadets, and then blame CAP for this?

Who are you people?

Want to blame someone in CAP? Blame the DCPs and Unit Commanders who didn't mention this. Or perhaps they did mention it, and no one was interested in listening. Happens all the time.

Don't like this? Vote with your feet. CAP will be better for it.

I was actually going to blame the parents. Sure it's the command that is responsible for informing their members about stuff like this, but ultimately, it is the parent's fault for not providing every possible contact that they should have.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Holy BATMAN!

Fodder like this is why I have slowly drifted away from CAPTalk.

Are some of you people SERIOUS?

Take personal bias, world view, misinformation, lack of knowledge, and what do you get? This type of topic.

Seems to me, the main issue is the fact that some people are opposed to the word "transgender", others have no idea what an anonymous survey means, what HIPPA is, or what CAP regulations are and how they read and work. Some are SO disconnected from their cadet activities as parents to not even HAVE an email in eservices along with their cadets, and then blame CAP for this?

Who are you people?

Want to blame someone in CAP? Blame the DCPs and Unit Commanders who didn't mention this. Or perhaps they did mention it, and no one was interested in listening. Happens all the time.

Don't like this? Vote with your feet. CAP will be better for it.

I was actually going to blame the parents. Sure it's the command that is responsible for informing their members about stuff like this, but ultimately, it is the parent's fault for not providing every possible contact that they should have.

Certainly indignant parents may have some blame, but again, nothing about this survey is either out of line, or illegal.

[Spam]

It was sent to parents. In the case of my son, we were also sent the survey. If when parents signed their cadet up they failed to include a parent e-mail as was requested, it did not go to the parent . Parents need to go to e-service with their cadet and update the contact information.

SOME parents. In the case of my sons, whose profile does not have a parental email, the survey was sent to them without notifying me. I've verified that I'm not alone on that. 

Mom, I'm glad that you're happy with your own outcome, but what is inappropriate to one parent may differ from what is to another. Neither you, nor CAP, has the right to break our policy to directly contact my kids without informing me, especially with a survey tool which opens up with "we won't tell" language which (to MY family and MY wife if not to YOU) smacks of the grooming and isolating language we are told in the CPP to be aware of.

We could care less what you define as normative, or that you think my own kids should live in your world as you implied in your prior post, or that you might think I'm a bad parent. I am the parent of my kids - you and CAP are not - and I don't contact your kids nor expect to do so behind your back. CAP violated our own CPP policy here, and our national Cadet Programs leadership doesn't see an issue that they've broken our trust.  I am strongly disappointed, and you can't twist the issue to make it somehow MY FAULT that NHQ did this in the blind because my wife and I didn't add our emails to our sons records.


Chaser, completely agree with your newest post here. I've people of all walks and beliefs in my family and in the unit I command, and will go to the mat to protect their rights of all our legally protected groups. I can separate my own beliefs from enforcing policy: you should have seen the letters I wrote this summer to run interference for one of my cadets to wear her muslim head scarf at encampment, or years ago to preserve the rights of an officer with spina bifida, or six years ago to challenge an IC who refused to let female pilots fly on missions. I expect CAP to equally respect my rights as a parent and to follow our own policy to not blindside parents, and to stay OUT of topics like this.


V/R
Spam

[THRAWN]

It was sent to parents. In the case of my son, we were also sent the survey. If when parents signed their cadet up they failed to include a parent e-mail as was requested, it did not go to the parent . Parents need to go to e-service with their cadet and update the contact information.

SOME parents. In the case of my sons, whose profile does not have a parental email, the survey was sent to them without notifying me. I've verified that I'm not alone on that. 

Mom, I'm glad that you're happy with your own outcome, but what is inappropriate to one parent may differ from what is to another. Neither you, nor CAP, has the right to break our policy to directly contact my kids without informing me, especially with a survey tool which opens up with "we won't tell" language which (to MY family and MY wife if not to YOU) smacks of the grooming and isolating language we are told in the CPP to be aware of.

We could care less what you define as normative, or that you think my own kids should live in your world as you implied in your prior post, or that you might think I'm a bad parent. I am the parent of my kids - you and CAP are not - and I don't contact your kids nor expect to do so behind your back. CAP violated our own CPP policy here, and our national Cadet Programs leadership doesn't see an issue that they've broken our trust.  I am strongly disappointed, and you can't twist the issue to make it somehow MY FAULT that NHQ did this in the blind because my wife and I didn't add our emails to our sons records.


Chaser, completely agree with your newest post here. I've people of all walks and beliefs in my family and in the unit I command, and will go to the mat to protect their rights of all our legally protected groups. I can separate my own beliefs from enforcing policy: you should have seen the letters I wrote this summer to run interference for one of my cadets to wear her muslim head scarf at encampment, or years ago to preserve the rights of an officer with spina bifida, or six years ago to challenge an IC who refused to let female pilots fly on missions. I expect CAP to equally respect my rights as a parent and to follow our own policy to not blindside parents, and to stay OUT of topics like this.


V/R
Spam

I'm with you to a point, but I have to address the 600 pound gorilla: why isn't your contact info in your kid's profile? Between my ever so patient bride and I, we have no less than 10 forms of contact that we provide for what ever activity Blip is going to engage in. I get your point about the outfit not including you in the notification chain, but they can't contact you if there is no contact info.

[LSThiker]

but I have to address the 600 pound gorilla: why isn't your contact info in your kid's profile?

Reminds me of this experiment from 1999.  Try it, it is a good test that is applicable to a number of things in CAP

https://youtu.be/vJG698U2Mvo

[Spam]

Holy BATMAN!

Fodder like this is why I have slowly drifted away from CAPTalk.

Are some of you people SERIOUS?

Take personal bias, world view, misinformation, lack of knowledge, and what do you get? This type of topic.

Seems to me, the main issue is the fact that some people are opposed to the word "transgender", others have no idea what an anonymous survey means, what HIPPA is, or what CAP regulations are and how they read and work. Some are SO disconnected from their cadet activities as parents to not even HAVE an email in eservices along with their cadets, and then blame CAP for this?

Who are you people?

Want to blame someone in CAP? Blame the DCPs and Unit Commanders who didn't mention this. Or perhaps they did mention it, and no one was interested in listening. Happens all the time.

Don't like this? Vote with your feet. CAP will be better for it.

Who am I?  I'm a father, a Christian, a former cadet, and an over 3 decade member and officer of CAP who can separate his own legitimate beliefs and biases from enforcing CAP's policies and programs of record, as apparently you can't. I'm a dad whose cadet sons ride with me every WED to the unit I grew up in. I check their homework, have guys nights with them, and monitor their relationships and internet usage, and I've erred many times, such as in not updating my email on their eservices profiles. I am very serious, and I'm not alone.


It really, really irks you, doesn't it, that someone might disagree with your world view?  You really, really seem to have a problem with respecting my beliefs as a father that these questions are offensive.  Your lack of respect, and that of some of your fellows on CT, is on display, as you suggest that I simply quit CAP. I also am a guy who believes that we can and should encourage people to stay in CAP by RESPECTING their positions, beliefs, and backgrounds ESPECIALLY when we disagree with them.  I've done so (this year) for a cadet whose religion I differ with strongly, but whom I am sworn to respect and support. Can't you do the same for me?


My wife and I are in charge of raising our kids - not you, not a "village" to raise our child, not the Air Force, and not CAP, and yes, as both an officer of CAP and as a dad I have a problem with forcing outside agendas related to non-protected category sex related and intrusive disability related questions on our minor cadets without telling the parents or commanders (no, an advance copy of the survey was NOT made available to parents, commanders and DCPs, and yes, I would have objected to these questions as inappropriate, had it been).


Why are you people all protecting your agendas and parsing and twisting definitions, and not standing by our policies and the rights of our parents?


V/R,
Spam

[abdsp51]

Holy BATMAN!

Fodder like this is why I have slowly drifted away from CAPTalk.

Are some of you people SERIOUS?

Take personal bias, world view, misinformation, lack of knowledge, and what do you get? This type of topic.

Seems to me, the main issue is the fact that some people are opposed to the word "transgender", others have no idea what an anonymous survey means, what HIPPA is, or what CAP regulations are and how they read and work. Some are SO disconnected from their cadet activities as parents to not even HAVE an email in eservices along with their cadets, and then blame CAP for this?

Who are you people?

Want to blame someone in CAP? Blame the DCPs and Unit Commanders who didn't mention this. Or perhaps they did mention it, and no one was interested in listening. Happens all the time.

Don't like this? Vote with your feet. CAP will be better for it.

Are you a parent?

[Spam]

I'm with you to a point, but I have to address the 600 pound gorilla: why isn't your contact info in your kid's profile? Between my ever so patient bride and I, we have no less than 10 forms of contact that we provide for what ever activity Blip is going to engage in. I get your point about the outfit not including you in the notification chain, but they can't contact you if there is no contact info.

Fair enough question, Thrawn.

Our phones are, our emails are not updated.  Screwup on my part. Does that excuse other peoples actions in going direct to them anyways? "Your Honor, the kids mom wasn't watching, so I grabbed her, but its NOT MY FAUUUUULLLT, it hers for insufficient vigilance"?

Odd how I can get smacked here for NOT watching closely enough to stop CAP from breaking the policy, but then I get smacked for being TOO protective of my kids with my belief system. I refuse to let this be twisted around to be my fault that CAP broke the policy.

V/R,
Spam

[NC Hokie]

Neither you, nor CAP, has the right to break our policy to directly contact my kids without informing me, especially with a survey tool which opens up with "we won't tell" language which (to MY family and MY wife if not to YOU) smacks of the grooming and isolating language we are told in the CPP to be aware of.

What policy are you referencing here?  I've looked through CAPR 52-10 several times since this started and I cannot find anything requiring advance or concurrent notification of parents when sending email to cadets.  I personally think this is a good idea and try to copy parents on everything I send to my cadets, but it is not required in 52-10.

As far as the "we won't tell" language goes, I think you have bad info.  Here's the statement from the survey (thanks to C/Cool for sharing the link):

This survey is confidential. CAP National Headquarters will NOT let your squadron or wing leaders know how you've answered. You won't be punished in any way for the answers you give. You have total freedom to answer honestly and to the best of your ability.

All that statement does is allay fears that a cadet might get in trouble with their leadership if they happen to tell an inconvenient truth.  I think that you'd have to try VERY hard to find any nefarious intent there.

[THRAWN]

Neither you, nor CAP, has the right to break our policy to directly contact my kids without informing me, especially with a survey tool which opens up with "we won't tell" language which (to MY family and MY wife if not to YOU) smacks of the grooming and isolating language we are told in the CPP to be aware of.

What policy are you referencing here?  I've looked through CAPR 52-10 several times since this started and I cannot find anything requiring advance or concurrent notification of parents when sending email to cadets.  I personally think this is a good idea and try to copy parents on everything I send to my cadets, but it is not required in 52-10.

As far as the "we won't tell" language goes, I think you have bad info.  Here's the statement from the survey (thanks to C/Cool for sharing the link):

This survey is confidential. CAP National Headquarters will NOT let your squadron or wing leaders know how you've answered. You won't be punished in any way for the answers you give. You have total freedom to answer honestly and to the best of your ability.

All that statement does is allay fears that a cadet might get in trouble with their leadership if they happen to tell an inconvenient truth.  I think that you'd have to try VERY hard to find any nefarious intent there.

From 52-10, 2-3 (b) "Whenever reasonably possible, cadet activities will be scheduled at least 2 weeks in advance and announced on a web-based unit calendar that enables cadets' parents to verify that a purported event is indeed an official activity. In the rare instance that a short-notice activity arises, the unit commander or project officer will notify parents of the event at the earliest opportunity."

While this survey is not a "cadet activity", using this guidance could have mitigated some of the concerns expressed here.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Spam,

I never meant to imply that you are a bad parent. If that is how you took my post, then please allow me to publicly apologize. I understand what you mean. I don't want the "village, or the Village Idiot" to raise my child either. I am just another CAP Mom doing the best I can for my sons and my cadets. I would never try to take the place of their parents or interfere with their parents.

I was merely trying to point out that information that we don't like as parents is out there. I was also trying to point out the reason some parents did not get the survey. I am not a part of Wing or of National. I am just another involved parent much as yourself doing the best I can.

I applaud how you helped your cadet wear her Hijab. I actually meant to send kudos your way for that one.

With Respect

CAP Mom

(Not a helicopter parent..A BLACKHAWK!!)

[Майор Хаткевич]

While this survey is not a "cadet activity", using this guidance could have mitigated some of the concerns expressed here.

Agreed, but if the parents don't have updated info? Is someone at NHQ supposed to make phone contact with every parent who doesn't do the bare minimum? If the concern is that the big bad world will get your kid...teach them to share info. Got an email with a survey? Check with your parents if it's ok to fill it out, if that's what you want your kids to do.


There is absolutely NO requirement for CAP to contact/copy parents on any or all communication with cadets.

2-7. Interactions Outside CAP Activities.
a. Email and Open Social Media. When adult leaders need to communicate with cadets in the
interval between official activities, if reasonably possible they will do so via email or social media that is
visible to other members. With email, adult leaders will include their supervisor or director of cadet
programs in the distribution, except for very brief messages, or email traffic distributed to two or more
members.
b. Closed Media. Texting, private messaging, and similar forms of electronic communication that
third parties cannot easily monitor are permitted only for very brief messages of an official nature. Contact
with cadets via telephone or video conference is permitted during non-school hours.