MFD inop.

[scooter]

Had some hangar flying going on and the G1000 crowd came up with this question. If the MFD is inop., is it OK to fly the G1000? Haven't seen any guidance on this. After much discussion we concluded it is probably OK since the PFD has everything you need to fly the airplane and navigate. Is there any official guidance in any of the Wings or national stan/eval concerning this?

[heliodoc]

scooter

Looking at page 7-66 in the C182 NAVIII  info / POH

Mention is made of Reversionary mode if EITHER screen displays malfunction by  going to  MFD  or PFD.

Still searching thru the EP's for something more tantalizing.  I try to look at some more G1000 notes to get up to speed on it...have not flown it for awhile

Need to get our Wing stan eval read on it......

[CASH172]

According to the 172S NAV III PIM, the MFD Display is a required item per the CEL.  The kinds of operations equipment list says the MFD and PFD backlighting are required for Night VFR and IFR.  There is however, a note regarding Day VFR and the PFD backlighting is required if MFD backlighting has failed.  The backup mode must also be active so engine instruments are displayed.  The MFD is required for Day VFR if the PFD display has failed and the backup mode must be active so the flight instruments are shown. 

I seriously doubt the 182 version is going to be much different.  Just note that losing the MFD will cause a loss of more than just a fancy display.  You're losing your Honeywell AP, Nav/Comm2, GPS 2, and a second set of processors. 

[flynd94]

OMG, the plane will fall out of the sky is the MFD stops working.  How about looking outside.

[PHall]

OMG, the plane will fall out of the sky is the MFD stops working.  How about looking outside.

Keith, he was talking about if it is legal to fly with a failed MFD, as in the MFD was INOP before the flight.

If it fails IN-FLIGHT, then yes, look out the window and use the back-up instruments.

But taking off with a known inop MFD, that's another question.

I predict that there will be a MEL for the G-1000 Cessna's pretty soon.

[flynd94]

Phil,

I kinda of new what he was talking about, just making a sarcastic remark.  There already is a MEL list for the C182 G1000, its the equipment list.  If its (MFD) is broke, you don't fly.

[scooter]

I'm sitting here looking at the operations equipment list in section 2 of the POH. The only thing I can find about not flying is the back lighting work around mentioned earlier and the MFD Fan. Where does it say no fly if MFD inop? This is a GFC 700 AFCS aircraft.

[scooter]

I also assume the PFD is in the reversionary mode so the EIS is visible.

[CASH172]

I'm sitting here looking at the operations equipment list in section 2 of the POH. The only thing I can find about not flying is the back lighting work around mentioned earlier and the MFD Fan. Where does it say no fly if MFD inop? This is a GFC 700 AFCS aircraft.

Section 6 under Weight and Balance/Equipment List has a CEL that puts the MFD Display as a R for Required item. 

[scooter]

Thanks for the reply. But this is for W&B which means it has to be installed to certify the airplane, right?  Does it imply it must also be working? Is that addressed somewhere in FARs or elsewhere? This is going to win me a beer or two maybe. Thanks.

[CASH172]

FAR 91.213(d)(2)(ii) states:  (d) Except for operations conducted in accordance with paragraph (a) or (c) of this section, a person may takeoff an aircraft in operations conducted under this part with inoperative instruments and equipment without an approved Minimum Equipment List provided--
(1) The flight operation is conducted in a--
[(i) Rotorcraft, nonturbine-powered airplane, glider, or lighter-than-air aircraft, powered parachute, or weight-shift-control aircraft, for which a master minimum equipment list has not been developed; or]
(ii) Small rotorcraft, nonturbine-powered small airplane, glider, or lighter-than-air aircraft for which a Master Minimum Equipment List has been developed; and
(2) The inoperative instruments and equipment are not--
(i) Part of the VFR-day type certification instruments and equipment prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations under which the aircraft was type certificated;
(ii) Indicated as required on the aircraft's equipment list, or on the Kinds of Operations Equipment List for the kind of flight operation being conducted;

I think that'll get you your beers.  While MFD isn't a M on ATOMATOFLAMES, pilots must still understand how to go about required equipment.  I'd recommend a good read of AC 91-67. 

Now back to studying for my CFII checkride. 

[DG]

Had some hangar flying going on and the G1000 crowd came up with this question. If the MFD is inop., is it OK to fly the G1000? Haven't seen any guidance on this. After much discussion we concluded it is probably OK since the PFD has everything you need to fly the airplane and navigate. Is there any official guidance in any of the Wings or national stan/eval concerning this?

Scooter,

During your G1000 check out with CAP, first with the ground school, and then with your transition syllabus, and finally with your Form 5,

did your instructors cover and emphasize the KOEL?

[scooter]

We did. However the KOEL in the aircraft POH does not say the MFD must be operational to fly. It only talks about the background lights. So we had this discussion on how to interpret this and determine if it was OK to fly with just the PFD. Fortunately, its broke at home so is in the shop. The discussion started about if this happened at a remote base somewhere. Could we fly home without a waiver from the FAA?

We suspect the cause of our MFD problem is the new software installed in G1000 and the GMA during the last 100hr.

[DG]

We did. However the KOEL in the aircraft POH does not say the MFD must be operational to fly. It only talks about the background lights. So we had this discussion on how to interpret this and determine if it was OK to fly with just the PFD. Fortunately, its broke at home so is in the shop. The discussion started about if this happened at a remote base somewhere. Could we fly home without a waiver from the FAA?

We suspect the cause of our MFD problem is the new software installed in G1000 and the GMA during the last 100hr.

Scooter, that's good.  And I see your point.

Many pilots come to me for an annual (renewal) Form 5 in the G1000, and they never have heard of the KOEL.

I typically ask, "Did you verify if the forward avionics fan is working?  The rear avionics fan working?"  Many times they say they can't hear the aft fan.  "Did you follow the check list which allows you to hear the aft fan nicely?"

Then I ask, "What if the forward avionics fan is not working, would you fly?

Most times, I get, "Oh, no!"

When I ask why, I get "Oh, because it will damage the avionics."

Then I ask, "But is it airworthy?"

Sometimes I ask the question in regard to the standby batt, which we have seen go inop.

They don't know, and say they have never heard of the KOEL.

So I point it out to them in the POH.

"Gee, nobody ever showed me that."

"What, did your buddy sign you off?"

[heliodoc]

^^^^^^

While we can argue all these "fine points" about buddy signoffs

It really boils down to this....... CAP never got or asked for a real definition of the FITS program, TRIED to mold it own "training program" which varies from State to State and REALLY this nor REAL true  TRAINING on the NHQ website for ...... get ready folks.....STANDARDIZATION, STANDARDIZATION, STANDARDIZATION.

The AF has a definite POI...does CAP in its website??  Does it have a SERIOUS training program that can IDENTIFY and CLARIFY all these points??

Sure one can "blame it on the FAA"... but with CAP bragging "exceeding standards" about things flying.... they sure did not do any of us a service by sending only a "few " to Indepencdence , KS and really never executed training programs for the G1000.

A few Wings have some sort of training program(s) but it is fractured and in this day of websites where is AAALLLLL that support from NHQ Stan Eval through out this program in establishing a COHERENT STRUCTURED  program...  After all this I can see why sometimes its better to go to an FBO and PAY for the instruction and get a good set on this

There ought to be a BETTER support on the NHQ website on ALLLL the important subject areas in which to study just like PTS in order to maintain currency other than self study and try to plod along trying to study for some CAP CFI "favorite missed highlight" for a Form 5

STANDARDIZATION Mr CAP NHQ man, that is all we ask.  Something nationwide, not just some local training issue.  The only training issue ought to be the weather and the training area.  It is evidenced by all these posts in CAPTALK

[scooter]

Here is some stuff we learned from this if you have a MFD or PFD replaced.
1. The new one is a clean slate. It must be reprogrammed with the software in the airplane.
2. The nav database must  be reloaded.
3. The first time it is turned on after the above, it will take a while for the GPS to figure out where it is. Since the memory does not know where it shut down, it must search for all satellites, acquire at least 5, and then start calculating. This can apparently take up to 5 minutes so be patient.
4. There are 3 fans behind the instrument panel. One each for the MFD and PFD plus the big one you can hear on preflight. If the big one fails, you will know (no noise). If FD fan fails, you may not know. The shop did not know if this failure would show up as an alert. It may show up as an xFD overheat or some such thing.

Hope this helps you sometime in the future.

[Eclipse]

My non-pilot, "guy who has to deal with the hearing later" take on this would be...

MFD Inop.

1) Plane in the air?  Turn around and go home.

2) Plane on the ground?  Go home and call the maintenance officer.

Assuming its legal to do so, I suppose you can add an "*" to #2, but only in a high-ORM, real-world where you've got the only thing available.

Why even have the conversation that the MFD being broken isn't the beginning of a chain of failure that ends with your being the example instead of setting it?

I like to get my name published as much as the next guy, but not in the Sentinel.

[RiverAux]

Think I have to agree with Eclipse on this one. 

[scooter]

Yep! Agree with eclipse also.

However, the first person to power up the airplane after the databases are installed will probably the guy that installs the nav database, probably crew chief. Knowing the delay needed to acquire a position will save some grief.

I also wonder if national is tracking G1000 failures to see if there are any trends we should all be aware of. My guess, probably not.

Something else the shop told me. When the airplane goes to annual and 50 hr inspections, nothing on G1000 is checked unless it is addressed on a work order. Cessna has a G1000 inspection program to make sure components are up to specs but the shop will not do it unless authorized, even if its covered by warranty. If this is the case then the first time you know some component is not performing according to specs is when it fails. This, of course, will happen when you most need it.

[desertengineer1]

3. The first time it is turned on after the above, it will take a while for the GPS to figure out where it is. Since the memory does not know where it shut down, it must search for all satellites, acquire at least 5, and then start calculating. This can apparently take up to 5 minutes so be patient.
Hope this helps you sometime in the future.

One quick tidbit on the GPS...  If the almanac (ephemeris data for each sat) is invalid, the receiver must revert to downloading it on the NAV message, which is 50 bps (I think).  Without an initialization latitude or longitude, it can take 12-15 minutes depending on the receiver type.  As you said, it has to listen sequentially for all services.  I think the initial power-up for a new MFD doesn't have any init data for the GPS, and it reverts to the default startup processing.

Upon power-up, the GPS is expecting initialization data from the avionics.  Init Lat, Lon, UTC time, and misc parameters such as group delay, lever arms, and the like are required to avoid the default startup procedure (GPS knows which sats to expect overhead, and system clock is valid) and aids the Nav modes in the G1000 (lever arms, Group Delay, ect..).  The immediate GPS availability you normally see is due to valid init data from the avionics.

Just a few tidbits for you...  Cheers..