Jump Pilot

[Flying Pig]

Does anyone here fly skidivers?  Im look for a part time gig, advice...suggestions

[scooter]

Did that for a while. Did not pay much, long days, lots of waiting around, short flights. Quit when one of my divers was killed in front of the spouse waiting for her free tandem jump. Good people, enthusiastic, and for the most part very safety conscious.

[IceNine]

^ Wow that's a buzz kill...

[Pumbaa]

Jumping out of perfectly good airplanes.... 

Not me.

[Trung Si Ma]

I looked at it (three different schools), but the aircraft were junk.  Obviously, they did the absolute minimum on the planes at each of the schools.  They load to the limits while carrying the absolute minimum fuel.

The funny thing is that they were proud of how little they spend on the aircraft.

[Eclipse]

I looked at it (three different schools), but the aircraft were junk.  Obviously, they did the absolute minimum on the planes at each of the schools.  They load to the limits while carrying the absolute minimum fuel.

The funny thing is that they were proud of how little they spend on the aircraft.

Well of course they are - everyone but the pilot can leave if things get "exciting".   

[Flying Pig]

A few of the schools I have seen are the same way.....flying a 1972 C182 with 20,000 hours on it.  But I have seen a couple, even one near me where their stuff isnt to bad.  Mostly just in need of a bath.

I have been told by a couple pilots I know that fly skydivers can be a great skill builder.  Also, the schools near me have a couple turbines also.  Maybe scam some time in a Caravan or an Otter.

[Climbnsink]

Poke around here:  http://www.diverdriver.com/
It can be fun but there are some pitfalls jump pilots are responsible(per FAR's) for some stuff they really have no control over.  If you are your way to the airlines it might not be worth the time/infraction risk.  For part time commercial pilots wherein a dopey infraction on your record isn't going to change your life- have fun.

[Stonewall]

A full-time law enforcement pilot, father, husband and most importantly, a CAP squadron commander, and you're looking for part-time work?

WOW!

I work full-time and in the Air Guard, have 2 kids and a wife, and I find it hard to think about CAP, let alone command a squadron and pick up a part-time gig.

[bosshawk]

You don't know Rob.  In addition to everything else he 'fesses up to, he flies CD for me in his spare time.

[Flying Pig]

Not really looking for "work".  Honestly, I probably dont need another flying hobby or the Mrs. will tell me to turn in my Form 91 card!  She is pretty gracious with the CAP gigs.

On the other side......I keep forgetting  I have weekends off now.  I haven't had weekends off in 11 years......which means more CD stuff for Paul!  My son will be joining CAP next year, which will be the perfect excuse to get involved more with Cadet Programs too.

So maybe Ill put this skydiving thing back in the box now that I think about it.  Thanks for bringing me back to reality!!!

[Stonewall]

I'm here for you, Rob.

Like you, I haven't had weekends off for years, at least 8.  I could always take a weekend off for a scheduled activity, but I didn't have them off regularly.  Of course, I do have one weekend a month with the Guard, but I use that as an excuse to get away from the daily grind.

[Gunner C]

Good idea except:

• Lousy maintenance
• Old aircraft
• Regulations met with a wink
• Overgross takeoffs
• Booze/Drugs

I've spent a lot of time around drop zones - there's not too many that are on the up and up.  Be very careful.

Gunner

[JGremlin]

Jumping out of perfectly good airplanes.... 

Not me.

You obviously have never seen the inside of a jump plane. 

There are a lot of phrases I would use to describe the jump planes that I used to fly. But 'perfectly good' would not be one of them. And the company I worked for was above average in terms of MX on the planes as DZ's go.

It's not a bad gig, but it ain't a great gig either. More often than not, pilots are treated like free labor. When you're not flying, you're doing whatever needs to be done. For free. I'm glad I did it. I'm even more glad I don't do it anymore.

[heliodoc]

Did the gig for approx 2.5 years and have to agree with Mr J Gremlin

MX was taken care of pretty religiously by the A&P on the field and when an 30K engine install occurred he was on top of the oil sampling..

Divers are fun people BUT will test the mettle of the pilot of the pilot because they can' t touch the real metal.  Some will want to go higher, some just love to jump thru the clouds and there are the ones that can not take no for answer.  On occasion I would flip 'em my pilots license and ask just what they thought that piece of plastic cost to get into wonderful C182 (1961) NON GLASS environment.

Some would really start talking to you, others could care.  Some owners are the same way.  I was lucky, 12.00 flt hour and approx 3.00 on the ground.

For those who think skydive pilots are just a bunch of renegade, cowboy pilots... I'll call BS
Taking care of near gross weight, approx 30 gallons total, and 5 SOB (4 pax, 1 pilot), and making sure preflights and engine run ups are done correctly.  Concentrating on altitudes and everyone knowing the drill for engine shutdown for both above and below 1000 ft are always on the forefront of a diverdrivers  plate.  I respect these guys because some of the ones I personally have met KNOW how to operate at low altitudes and in sometimes demanding traffic environments and at gross weights near CAP operations and sometimes in less than perfect aircraft.  But if one can fly old tin and reliable old tin, then CAP operations are somewhat similar in mission environments. But I know CAP types, they'll lecture til the day is long on how tough 90kt and 10 degree flaps flying is and how demanding 1,000 foot flying is.... and there are days that it is.  But diver flying with everyone moving about at times and shifting around in the cabin getting ready for the door to open and flying track that they call, puts alot of teamwork together, albeit for a short time.

Its good flying and pays a LITTLE better than CAP, but I did both and if I can get to it at my new location, I'll do it again....

CAP pilots ....  I am ready....... Flame away on how bad skydive pilots are and I will counter near every argument you may have.  Owners and operators of skydive outfits are not getting rich and they do not have access to all the fancy CAP MX programs but there are many that DO live by the letter of the law and do get visited by the local FSDO on more than one occasion

But as an Sqdn AE Officer, I encourage any type of flying to the cadets....  Jump pilots like their brothers in the agricultural application "bizness" often have a diiiiiiiiiiferent set of interests and abilities than straight and level bus drivers.  But when one really gets down to it.... Pilots are UNDERPIAD bus drivers to people and products for their bosses and shareholders. 

In closing, I have had to assist CAP pilots inflight for directions to locations, giving inflight airport status, reporting altimeter, even pushing planes in and out of hangars and that is how I help the aviation community as a skydiverdriver.....................

[JGremlin]

CAP pilots ....  I am ready....... Flame away on how bad skydive pilots are and I will counter near every argument you may have. 

The only thing most jump pilot could be better at is choosing a career. 

[Bloodhound]

A tip I got from a wise old pilot when I was considering flying jumpers...

get a spare ignition key for the plane you will be flying and put it on a string around your neck

It may save your butt when one of those people take or knock the key out on their way out of the door.

I decided to tow gliders and instruct instead.

[Hawk200]

A tip I got from a wise old pilot when I was considering flying jumpers...

get a spare ignition key for the plane you will be flying and put it on a string around your neck

My father was told the same thing when he considered it. At some clubs, it's considered a rite of passage to take the key. Struck me as fairly stupid for it to even be considered an "initiation". There are good pilots, but stunts like that can get someone killed.

[NIN]

Good idea except:

• Lousy maintenance
• Old aircraft
• Regulations met with a wink
• Overgross takeoffs
• Booze/Drugs

I've spent a lot of time around drop zones - there's not too many that are on the up and up.  Be very careful.

OK, no offense here, but these are some pretty gross generalizations.

(And I just read heliodoc's post, and +1 to what he said)

Mind you, I'm an -active- skydiver and a former aviation mechanic and I've been around aviation for pretty much my whole life.  I probably know a thing or two here.

Lousy Maintenance
I've jumped at a number of DZs with a variety of planes.  While I don't do a pre-flight or an annual on the plane before I get in it, I sure do look it over if I can.   I've helped our pilots do their preflights (they appreciate the help, usually, and my ulterior motive is an extra set of eyeballs on the plane) and found downing deficiencies that temporarily pissed off my buddies but ultimately kept us all safe.  Sometimes I don't have the ability to look at the MX, but I do look at the general condition of the plane.  A nasty, dirty plane isn't always an indication of poor maintenance, but its a red flag, for sure.   

The DZ I presently jump at, we have a husband and wife team who are the owner-operators for our DHC-6 and they also own 3 C-206s.  Van, the owner, has just about every flying rating you can have, as well as being an A&P and an IA.   (in another of NIN's "Its a Small World" situations, Van worked at DFRC and knew Ed Lewis)  After having worked with him on the airplanes a little, and watching how absolutely nuts he is about attention to detail surrounding MX, I have ZERO concern with the maintenance of our planes.  One of their 206s is immaculate, the other two are definitely "working" airplanes in that they look a little rough but mechanically they're in fine shape. 

However, the worst 182 I ever jumped out of had a nice paint job and looked great from 15 ft away.  Pay no attention to the placarded instruments (ie. everything that used a vacuum source was marked "INOP").. Eeek.  Vowed to never jump there again.  They ground looped their Beech 18 later that year.

Old Aircraft
Yep, aircraft are old.  For the longest time, you couldn't buy light Cessnas due to the production line being shut down.  People had to deal. 

Actually, some of the older airplanes are the most suitable for skydiving ops for a number of reasons:  better gross weight, different designs of the doors, less stuff to rip out to make it appropriate for skydiving, etc.  Plus, you can get a perfectly good older plane for a LOT cheaper.  If I wanted to start a DZ and actually pay my bills in doing so, which plane would I buy? The immaculate $50,000 1959 C-182 that was already STC'd for skydiving ops with a jump door or a 2008 C-182 G-1000 that cost $325,000?

The place I started jumping at in Michigan had three C-182s that were in tremendous shape. All were pre-1960 182s.  The gent who owned the place had been there since the 1960s and had owned those planes for years.  These bad boys were -optimized- for static-line parachuting, too.

BTW, I don't see military HALO guys complaining about the age of the C-130 they just had to jump out of that was built before most of them were born...   

Regulations Met With a Wink
Admittedly, this does happen.  Cloud clearance is a biggie.  Hey, man, I thought the forward throw would put us in that 2 mile wide hole... my bad. 

That's usually a couple individuals or the pilot, but seldom is it systemic or organizational. As an instructor, I wouldn't put up with it.  The FARs (91 and 105) exist to keep us and the people we share the airspace with safe. 

I wouldn't jump at a place where they ignored the FARs or the USPA's BSRs.  Do the rules occasionally get broken? Yep.  I bet people don't drive the speed limit, too!

I once jumped at a DZ where a skydiver flew his canopy in front of a Cherokee on short-final (the pilot did a carrier-style wave off and nearly clipped some construction equipment. The skydiver flew past less than 100 ft in front of the plane as it was just transitioning over the numbers).  Not good.  The DZ's  pilot was a very aggressive guy who flew the plane like it was his own personal fighter jet.  I was not made comfortable (the place had a poor rep in the area, anyway), and that just sealed it for me.  A year later, they crashed the King Air they had, killed everybody on board.  I don't recall the NTSB's probable cause, but I'm certain their safety and regulatory culture wasn't helping matters.  Funny thing was, the pilot was an ATP who flew DC-9s for one of the smaller regionals.  He'd had 3 DUIs and didn't bother to inform his company or the FAA.  Should I now perform a breathalyzer and a records check in the jetway before I get on one of this airline's planes?  Talk about winking at the regs.

But again, that's not widespread and if a place is that bad, it gets an ops check from the local FSDO. 

BTW, that last time I exited the plane after official sunset without a light visible for 3 miles, well, I think my watch was off...

Overgross Takeoffs
I've heard the stories about 5 jumpers and a pilot in 182s, and unless all those folks were "skinny minis" I'm sure that plane was overgross.  I've never seen it, but I've heard of it years ago.

However, just as an exercise one day, to assuage my own curiosity, I did a W/B on one of our 182s using the actual (not estimated) weight of each jumper with equipment, the pilot and the gas in the tanks.  I gotta tell you, it was *close*.  Close enough that perhaps the first load after getting gas should be the somewhat *smaller* folks and save the fat guys for the next load.  But it was not overgross.

A DHC-6 with 20 jumpers is not over gross, either.

Load factor and operating the aircraft within parameters is part of the business of skydiving. That plane is not making money for anybody if its being flown light or aggressively.

The folks who fly for us now are some of the most precise pilots I've ever had the pleasure of flying with.  Partly because they're the owners, they treat their plane with a high degree of precision to ensure that they're not going to have to do a premature $60,000 hot end job on the engine.  (our pilot last year was a little bit of a hot dog and we always got a little extra altitude and he was pretty aggressive about getting the plane back down quick.  This year, not so much.  13,200 quite consistently, all day long.   Having flown in the front of the plane a few times, I note that both Van and his wife Emiko are always monitoring and adjusting to put the torque and turbine temps where they want them, both heading up and down.  Very precisely.  And not once have I looked out when the green light goes on and had to think "Uh oh, where is the spot." We're always at the right altitude and the right airspeed over the right piece of real estate.  I

n other words, folks who are operating the airplanes as designed, within parameters and safely. And that goes on all over the country.

Booze/Drugs
I have flown a lot of places and I've jumped a lot of places.  I refuse to jump with people who do drugs. (and yes, I've met a couple.  I grounded a kid this year who took some speed. I thought he seemed a little squirrelly and he later admitted to me that he'd taken some speed and then jumped.  I grounded his happy ass right there on the spot) And *every* place I've been to has a "beer light" rule (no open containers on the DZ until the last load is wheels up) that is assiduously enforced.  Heck, we don't even let the tandem students celebrate with a beer even though they're not going up again.   Go home and do that.

After the beer light is on, man, we rip it up.  And yeah, there are a couple guys who probably do some drugs.  But my guess is that the percentages are far less than in the population.  Hell, I've seen CAP senior members get more ripped up at the club than skydivers.. <GRIN>  But in the morning, folks are bright eyed and bushy tailed and while we might be a little rough, we've adhered to the 8hr bottle-to-throttle rule (and sometimes the 12hr rule, too).  If I saw a guy drinking at the fire pit at 2am who was trying to get on the first load of the day, I'd stop him. And most of my fellow jumpers at nearly every place I've jumped would too.

Just as an FYI, the FAA is increasing surveillance of DZs surrounding MX and OPS due to a few crashes and some concerns..  One concern is that the previously considered "single point" seat belt isn't enough to restrain people in an accident sequence.  So the FAA, the USPA and the Parachute Industry Association are going to work on coming up with better seatbelt standards for jump aircraft. 

But the problem is not widespread.

Gunner C, I'd be interested to see what places you've been to where this has been an issue.  Sure, maybe at the Gulch in the 1970s.   But I highly doubt that a decent DZ in the US has these problems.  Skydiving has become too much of a business (different from the old school "club" or "bandit" operations of the 1960s)  in the last 20 years to let too much of that be widespread.

Remember the rule: If you want to make $1,000,000 running a DZ, start with $2,000,000.

Rob, as to you flying jumpers:  Its strictly day VFR flying, and usually single-engine.  If you're looking to build any kind of time for flying after your stint as a helo-cop, skydiving flying is probably not it.   One of our old pilots went to apply to some of the regionals (Colgan, for example) and while he had about 2000 hrs of twin turbine time, it was all day VFR.  They wanted to see night, instrument, etc.  He had very little of that. Ooops.

Its a good side job for some occasional money if you can get it, but you're not going to fly jumpers to pay the bills.  If you can weasel into a place that has a Caravan or a Twin Otter and get checked out by the DZ, then yeah, man, go for it.  But chances are they're going to want a guy who is already checked out in those aircraft, the Twin Otter in particular.  But chances are you're gonna fly a 206 or 182.  IIRC, you're in Fresno, so Madera is to the north, and then its a hoof to every other DZ (90+ miles).  Ugh, that's a hell of a long way to drive to fly jumpers for slave wages.



Now, I have a buddy who wants to build and fly a UH-1 on the boogie circuit. He's waiting on the FAA to say whether you can use a "RESTRICTED" category rotorcraft for jumpers.    Maybe he's looking for pilot for the west coast...<GRIN>

[NIN]

A tip I got from a wise old pilot when I was considering flying jumpers...

get a spare ignition key for the plane you will be flying and put it on a string around your neck

My father was told the same thing when he considered it. At some clubs, it's considered a rite of passage to take the key. Struck me as fairly stupid for it to even be considered an "initiation". There are good pilots, but stunts like that can get someone killed.

The Golden Knights were notorious for doing this.

BTW, the key in most Cessnas, as I recall, is on the left side of the panel. If the pilot is so inattentive that a jumper can reach all the way across him for the key, maybe he deserves it.

(And as one of our pilots once said "Hey, man, you're 10,000 ft over an airport when it happens. If you can't put the plane down on the airfield like that, maybe you should consider another line of work")