Kit Aircraft/ Mechanics and Maintainance

[Rob Sherlin]

  First, while looking into a PPL, I was looking into aircraft cost. With the cost of obtaining a license, and just the cost of an aircraft alone (not to mention hangar fees and such), it's almost impossible unless you have an excellent source of income to do all those things.
   I have found used planes for pretty cheap, but that also would require going to the location, doing some disassembling so it can be transported by ground, then having a hangar and supply source, as most of them are not flyable and are in need of repair (that's why they were cheap...The person selling them just gave up).
   I've also looked into "almost complete" ultralight and sport plane kits that you can get for cheap that people have given up on, that you can pretty much build inside a garage. These are planes that either have removable wings (or folding wings), which would pretty much eliminate the need for a hangar and airport fees for parking and storage.
   I've also read here on the board about a squadron restoring a "Cub" back to flying status, and it made me wonder.

   Why haven't more squadrons looked into this sort of thing? I realize cost is somewhat of an issue, but if there could be approved fundraising or something towards such a thing, I think it would be awesome for CAP because......

   1. It might not be a mission plane, but it will give the squadron another aircraft to fly.
   2. Working on such a project not only builds a team relationship between members, but also pride to see that aircraft fly again.
   3. It would give the squadrons who don't have any aircraft, a chance to have SOMETHING to fly, which might further the interest of members to go further in aviation, who would otherwise not have the opportunity (for those who do, see #1).
   4. Having such aircraft, might be a inexpensive way for members to obtain a "sport" rating, which in turn would probably make it less expensive to advance to PPL and further....Especially for senior members where there are not a lot of opportunities to get a PPL with cost reduction on doing so.
   5. Working on such a project would give members "hands on" experience on aviation mechanics for at least that type of aircraft, which might further ones interest in aviation mechanics and upkeep, which is also a huge part of aviation that's not mentioned to much (If everyones a pilot, who's going to keep those aircraft flying. It's also more cost effective to repair, or restore an aircraft, than to buy a new one).

  Just a thought, and question at the same time.

[PHall]

Well, since it wouldn't be a corporate aircraft, the unit would be on the hook for all of the costs incurred with the aircraft.
Can your squadron afford that?

[Pumbaa]

Some random thought....  Points to ponder...

Could you donate the plane to the corporation with stipulations it stays with the squadron for X amount of time?  Since the corp is a 501c(3) you can donate to it.  It's a matter if they accept the donation.

The other option is to then try and sell it once complete...  Since it is not a corporate asset, it could be done.  But then that defeats the purpose of building the plane and wanting it for the squadron.

Regardless it is still a tool to really learn about avionics, maintenance, etc.. 

However, since CAP does not pay for Seniors to get the PPL, then it would still be a good tool.  You've saved them money on at least renting an airplane if the senior members "Own" the plane since it is not a corporate asset.

I have it in our squadron master plan to do exactly what you are suggesting, but first I want to do smaller projects, that get the cadets used to and trained in Integrated master Planning, Integrated master Schedules, Earned Value, Basic engineering principles and practices.  Then we need to have some space donated to use to work on the plane at the local airport, then work on a proper fund raising plan.

You can't go headlong into a project like this without proper planning. To be disaster otherwise.

[Rob Sherlin]

   Way to go!!! I'm glad someone is thinking outside the box, but within it (as far as reg ). Even if it were a side project and a just one senior member held the title to such an aircraft (whether it be an ultralight, powered glider, sport plane, etc..) It WOULD be more opportunity to fly. From there, other people might get interested in what's going on and next thing you know, you have two, or three, and so on.
    The thought of rebuilding an aircraft and selling it for squadron support is also an awesome idea. That would also bring on "hands on" experience (build or rebuild something that carries a person, beats the heck out of model rockets by far!!!).
    The main thing is, as an "Aviation" based organization, there are not many opportunities for a person to learn to fly....anything. There are cadet programs for a chosen few (and that's putting the word "few" in the limelight for those programs), and there's nothing for senior members unless you allready have a rating.
    It seems to me, that if CAP were to expand its aviation acceptability beyond just the aircraft we use for missions and gliders, there would be more allowance to get other aviation programs going to fly other aircraft that doesn't cost as much to build, repair, or buy.

    Other than all the "red tape", I think it would be a good thing and enhance the opportunities for members.

[Climbnsink]

Lots of EAA chapters have done similar.  Might want to ask some EAA guys for opinions. 

[Eclipse]

   Why haven't more squadrons looked into this sort of thing?

Because its explicitly against regs:

2-3. Required Airworthiness Certificate. Aircraft used on CAP flight activities must have a current FAA airworthiness certificate. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, autogyros, gyrocopters, helicopters, experimental, primary category, home-built, and single seat powered aircraft (except member furnished glider tow planes) are not authorized for use on any CAP flight activity.

Whether sport aircraft would fall into this, I don't know, but my guess would be "yes".

[Short Field]

Due to liability issues, our local EAA chapter very specifically separated itself from our Chapter Flying Club.  The Flying Club owns a Cessna 172 to give the Flying Club members something to fly as they build their own aircraft.  The Flying Club members also get a lot of hands on experience as we do all the maintance work on the C-172.  This has included annuals, an engine rebuild, a new windshield, and a lot of body work.  I belong to both the Flying Club and the Chapter and got my PPL in the Flying Club airplane.  It is the cheapest aircraft to fly in the area - basically gas plus $5.00.

[DG]

Could you donate the plane to the corporation with stipulations it stays with the squadron for X amount of time?  Since the corp is a 501c(3) you can donate to it.  It's a matter if they accept the donation.

The other option is to then try and sell it once complete...  Since it is not a corporate asset, it could be done.  But then that defeats the purpose of building the plane and wanting it for the squadron.

However, since CAP does not pay for Seniors to get the PPL, then it would still be a good tool.  You've saved them money on at least renting an airplane if the senior members "Own" the plane since it is not a corporate asset.

One thing to keep in mind through all of this:

You can't have an activity as part of CAP for making tax deductible donations and then treat it as a separate entity, separate from CAP, for owning the aircraft (or hangar or meeting room or for holding a CD) or for operating the aircraft (or spending the CD).

If a donation is made to CAP under 501(c)(3) and as such is taken as a deduction on personal income taxes, the corporation owns and controls and is responsible for anything associated with the donation.

[Rob Sherlin]

  I know there's a lot of "red tape" (as I said). That's why I made the comment "If CAP were to expand it's policies on the typre of aircraft allowed." One member just posted that their Chapter flying club owns a 172 that they fly while they're building their own planes...Is this not done through CAP?
  He also stated that in flying, the cost was only that of $5.00 plus fuel, and THAT was mainly the whole point of my post. Some squadrons are assigned aircraft, others complain about flying the older aircraft when they get new ones. But, there's squadrons out there who have NO aircraft, and have members who would love to learn to fly, but can't because the squadron they joined has no access to additional aircraft, a flying club, or any program for members to do so. Therefore it ends up costing full price to learn to fly, while others get their wings for way cheaper.
   I was just looking at a concept (whether itr be part of CAP, or just a thing for members by members, outside of the regs that control us, that would make it easier to get experience in flight and go for a PPL a lot cheaper, and learn a lot about the mechanics of aircraft at the same time.
   I think if I owned a 2 seat sport plane or ultralight, and had a CFI rating, I would offer flights and lessons to other members to help them out. After a while, someone else might get a sport plane or and ultralight and do the same. Now you have two, then three, and so on. The aircraft would be owned by senior members, and allthough everyone partaking in flying them would be members of CAP, it actually wouldn't be part CAP....Just a club where members can learn to fly and enjoy flying.