Counting flight time

carlmorrison · September 22, 2013, 04:01:00 PM

The CAP regs for pilot ratings state the required hours as "pilot time logged in accordance with FARs." The FARs, as far as I can tell, refer to just PIC time. Is this what the CAP regs mean? Or is total flight time, which would include instruction time, counted? Thanks!!

Critical AOA · September 22, 2013, 04:14:08 PM

It is as stated. If 60-1 states total flight time, it includes dual. If it states PIC, it means PIC. Take the example below from 60-1.

Quote3-6. Airplane Qualifications. In order to operate certain CAP Airplane models, pilots (other than CAP Solo pilots) must meet one or more of the following requirements:
a. Single Engine Airplane.
(1) High Performance Airplanes – 100 hours total time.
(2) Complex Airplanes – 100 hours total PIC time of which at least 10 hours PIC and 25 takeoffs and landings are in complex airplanes.

Total means total. PIC means PIC.

SunDog · September 23, 2013, 12:07:29 AM

I didn't look tonight, as it doesn't much affect me - but take a quick glance at the FARs IRT logging time. If you're low on time, remember check ride hours are your PIC hours, and regardless of the ratings/status of the pilot in the right seat, if you aren't under instruction, you're the PIC. Even on an inital Form 5, while WMIRS may list the check pilot as PIC, I think as far as FAA is concerned, you da man. . .

I've had one or two CFI/check pilots tell me they were logging dual instruction on a CAP checkride over the years, and another who was a CFI say the same thing - not that I cared what they put in their log book, but if it ain't instruction, you are the PIC. That's how I logged it. Watch that in CAP - plenty of check pilots are not CFIs, and plenty of CFIs in CAP are not check pilots - in either case, you are the PIC, unless it's an instructional flight. Generally, seniors don't usually get flight training in CAP, but it can be done - but you'd know if that was the case for you.

On the other extreme, I know a very high time guy who dosen't log anything, except what he needs to support his FAA currency. As much as he flies, I doubt he records one flight in thirty in his log book.

If you're current you can build some time as safety pilot, if you can find someone who needs hood work - you can log the time he spends under the hood. I think (but you should check!) that you don't need any status above private pilot SEL to be a safety pilot. . . it is valuable time, and even though it's odd that you can log it while the other guy flies it, it an be fun. . .

lordmonar · September 23, 2013, 01:27:41 AM

And from the FAA http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/sdl/local_more/avsafety_program/media/LOGGING%20PILOT-IN-COMMAND%20TIME.pdf

vento · September 23, 2013, 04:31:18 AM

Quote from: carlmorrison on September 22, 2013, 04:01:00 PM
The CAP regs for pilot ratings state the required hours as "pilot time logged in accordance with FARs." The FARs, as far as I can tell, refer to just PIC time. Is this what the CAP regs mean? Or is total flight time, which would include instruction time, counted? Thanks!!

I was going to suggest you to ask a lawyer, but then that would be pulling your legs.

IMHO, for the purpose of CAPR 35-6 in regards to Senior And Master Pilot, any time logged in accordance with FAR counts. Even the very first flight as a student pilot with a CFI is logged in accordance with FAR.

Flying Pig · September 23, 2013, 01:33:20 PM

What it means is that you log time in accordance with the FARs. Just what it says. CAP does not have their own method of logging time. Any questions about logging time while flying in CAP or using your time to count towards a CAP rating, CAP will always defer to the FAR. Your "total time" counts towards you Mission Pilot and MTP quals.

JeffDG · September 23, 2013, 01:55:09 PM

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 23, 2013, 01:33:20 PM
What it means is that you log time in accordance with the FARs. Just what it says. CAP does not have their own method of logging time. Any questions about logging time while flying in CAP or using your time to count towards a CAP rating, CAP will always defer to the FAR. Your "total time" counts towards you Mission Pilot and MTP quals.

Mission Pilot qual is PIC time, not "total time", so that counts your pre-license solo time, plus almost all of your post-license flying (very limited exceptions...if your hands are on the controls, it's PIC time whether you're acting as PIC or not)

Flying Pig · September 23, 2013, 01:59:30 PM

My mistake, you are correct.

Also one thing to consider is that the PIC time is not airframe specific If I recall. You could he a 2000 hour helicopter pilot with a fresh private airplane add on and you would qualify.

JeffDG · September 23, 2013, 02:03:28 PM

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 23, 2013, 01:59:30 PM
My mistake, you are correct.

Also one thing to consider is that the PIC time is not airframe specific If I recall. You could he a 2000 hour helicopter pilot with a fresh private airplane add on and you would qualify.

Yep...you could rack up the hours in gliders too.

Flying Pig · September 23, 2013, 02:25:30 PM

Yeah....... I have about 60 of those. I considered it 60hrs worth of emergency procedures and Power off 180s training

JeffDG · September 23, 2013, 02:35:02 PM

Speaking of which...that Helo-Airplane transition is one of those "exceptions" of where your hands are on the controls, but you cannot log PIC.

To log PIC as the "sole manipulator of the controls", you must be rated in category, class, and if necessary, type. So if you have a Helicopter certificate, you are not rated in airplanes, so no PIC for you. Also applicable for single-multi transitions.

You can, however, log PIC without "endorsements". So, if you do some time with the CFI to learn the 182 and get your High Performance endorsement, that's PIC time (Category-Airplane, Class-Single Engine Land). Also if you are flying with a CFII or safety pilot and end up in actual instrument conditions before you receive your Instrument Rating, that's still PIC time.

Flying Pig · September 23, 2013, 05:03:03 PM

Thats the boat I was in back when I did my helicopter add-ons. I was already an Instrument rated airplane pilot when I added on all my helicopter ratings.

Critical AOA · September 23, 2013, 09:20:20 PM

If the reg says airplanes it means airplanes, not other types of aircraft.

Critical AOA · September 23, 2013, 09:26:35 PM

Definitions.

Aircraft. A device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air.

Airplane. An engine-driven fixed-wing aircraft heavier than air, that is supported in flight by the dynamic reaction of the air against its wings.

SunDog · September 23, 2013, 11:26:02 PM

CAP airplane- a machine that achieves flight when the time spent arranging flight equals or exceeds the intended time aloft.

vento · September 23, 2013, 11:47:21 PM

Quote from: vento on September 23, 2013, 04:31:18 AM
Quote from: carlmorrison on September 22, 2013, 04:01:00 PM
The CAP regs for pilot ratings state the required hours as "pilot time logged in accordance with FARs." The FARs, as far as I can tell, refer to just PIC time. Is this what the CAP regs mean? Or is total flight time, which would include instruction time, counted? Thanks!!

I was going to suggest you to ask a lawyer, but then that would be pulling your legs.
IMHO, for the purpose of CAPR 35-6 in regards to Senior And Master Pilot, any time logged in accordance with FAR counts. Even the very first flight as a student pilot with a CFI is logged in accordance with FAR.

Sec 61.51 is the portion of FAR I've looked. I don't believe it is specifically written for PIC.