Education of CAP Pilot Recruits

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

We really need to do a better job of setting expectations for pilot recruits wanting to become CAP Pilots, MP's and IP/CP's.

Being a CAP pilot is not like flying in a Flying Club.  There are much more stringent rules, regulations, paperwork and uniform requirements to fly our planes.

Flying as an MP requires even more paperwork, learning the skills required for demanding flying at 1000 AGL, learning to fly utilizing Crew Resource Management, and the counter-intuitive (to civilian pilots) learning that the MO commands the flight. 

To the majority of Private pilots these are all skills that need to be learned and they take time to master.  Once an understanding of the CAP system, the flight regime, and CRM should be CFI be encouraged to become an IP or Check Pilot.  They don't necessarily need to be MP but they do need a through understanding of the above.

Thoughts?

[Eclipse]

Agree completely - one of the reasons I encourage new members who are pilots to work through Observer before reaching for MP
(though many times that just results in trying to fly right seat).

Flying the aircraft is the >start< of the conversation.  Far too many think that's all there is to it.

[SunDog]

We really need to do a better job of setting expectations for pilot recruits wanting to become CAP Pilots, MP's and IP/CP's.

Being a CAP pilot is not like flying in a Flying Club.  There are much more stringent rules, regulations, paperwork and uniform requirements to fly our planes.

Flying as an MP requires even more paperwork, learning the skills required for demanding flying at 1000 AGL, learning to fly utilizing Crew Resource Management, and the counter-intuitive (to civilian pilots) learning that the MO commands the flight. 

To the majority of Private pilots these are all skills that need to be learned and they take time to master.  Once an understanding of the CAP system, the flight regime, and CRM should be CFI be encouraged to become an IP or Check Pilot.  They don't necessarily need to be MP but they do need a through understanding of the above.

Thoughts?

Some time to master the skills, but not a lot of time. 1,000 AGL leaves a lot of time and space twixt you and the ground at 90 knots in a C172/182. We ain't dragging our fangs in the dirt, at the speed of heat. Our aircraft lack maneveurabilty in the vertical plane, so we don't go up (or down) particularly quickly. I don't think CFIT in VFR  has been a problem for us. Exception is mountain flying, of course, where the ground may  come up after YOU. . .

Concur with you more readily on CRM. Believe a few flights will get a pilot used to the challenge-and-response checklist style. Brief a few times on divsion of labor, then practice it.

We talk with prospective new pilots, give them an idea. Truly, walking through the door as a private pilot, with 175 hours or more, most of the work is done. Adding MP is a much, much lighter study and practice lift than, say, getting an instrument rating. Probably a bit less than a Commerial -maybe more like a Multi?

Not trvializing it, and the bookwork and ground training requires more than a few hours. I think four, maybe five, 2.5 hour training flights, three or four study sessions with another MP, and a solid weekend in the books solo could do it.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Some time to master the skills, but not a lot of time.

Some time to learn the skills, not some time to master the skills.  It takes 10,000 hours to truly master a skill.  To become a trusted MP takes years not months.  New MP's don't need to master the skills right away but please do not trivialize the time needed to master the skills needed for MP.

1,000 AGL leaves a lot of time and space twixt you and the ground at 90 knots in a C172/182. We ain't dragging our fangs in the dirt, at the speed of heat. Our aircraft lack maneveurabilty in the vertical plane, so we don't go up (or down) particularly quickly. I don't think CFIT in VFR  has been a problem for us. Exception is mountain flying, of course, where the ground may  come up after YOU. . .

Pardon, have you had someone pull the power on you without warning at 1,000?  After the obligatory 3-5 seconds when you can't believe that the engine has stopped, you will hit the ground in about a minute.  That means that every second that you are in the grid at 1,000 feet you better have your landing site picked out.  Think you can learn that essential skill that will save the life of your crew in four flights, six months, a year, a lifetime?  Yes save their lives.  This isn't some hamburger run at 4,500 feet, this is a mission that your sole responsibility is to fly the plane safely and protect the lives that are entrusted to you!

Concur with you more readily on CRM. Believe a few flights will get a pilot used to the challenge-and-response checklist style. Brief a few times on divsion of labor, then practice it.

CRM at it's most basic level is running the checklist.  There are so many more aspects to CRM that directly contribute to the success of the CAP mission.  Suggest more CRM study, practice, and thought is required.  Definitely more thought.

We talk with prospective new pilots, give them an idea. Truly, walking through the door as a private pilot, with 175 hours or more, most of the work is done.

Walking through the door with 175 hours is mearly the start of the training, NONE of the work is done.  A 175 hour pilot has a long way to go just to become a proficient and safe pilot, and then the 'initial' MP training begins.

Adding MP is a much, much lighter study and practice lift than, say, getting an instrument rating. Probably a bit less than a Commerial -maybe more like a Multi?

Instrument no, Commercial - HaHa, Multi maybe.  Here is the difference, when you fly at 1,000 feet in possibly hostile terrain there are two other volunteers sitting in that plane that are trusting their lives that you know what you are doing. 

Not trvializing it, and the bookwork and ground training requires more than a few hours. I think four, maybe five, 2.5 hour training flights, three or four study sessions with another MP, and a solid weekend in the books solo could do it.

From what I have been reading, you ARE trivializing MP training, MP requirements, CRM, the inherent dangers of flying at 1000 feet at 90 knots.  I have serious doubts about flying with you!

Are you really a CAP MIssion Pilot?

[Eclipse]

^ What he said, seriously.

[Flying Pig]

We really need to do a better job of setting expectations for pilot recruits wanting to become CAP Pilots, MP's and IP/CP's.

Being a CAP pilot is not like flying in a Flying Club.  There are much more stringent rules, regulations, paperwork and uniform requirements to fly our planes.

Flying as an MP requires even more paperwork, learning the skills required for demanding flying at 1000 AGL, learning to fly utilizing Crew Resource Management, and the counter-intuitive (to civilian pilots) learning that the MO commands the flight. 

To the majority of Private pilots these are all skills that need to be learned and they take time to master.  Once an understanding of the CAP system, the flight regime, and CRM should be CFI be encouraged to become an IP or Check Pilot.  They don't necessarily need to be MP but they do need a through understanding of the above.

Thoughts?

Some time to master the skills, but not a lot of time. 1,000 AGL leaves a lot of time and space twixt you and the ground at 90 knots in a C172/182. We ain't dragging our fangs in the dirt, at the speed of heat. Our aircraft lack maneveurabilty in the vertical plane, so we don't go up (or down) particularly quickly. I don't think CFIT in VFR  has been a problem for us. Exception is mountain flying, of course, where the ground may  come up after YOU. . .

Concur with you more readily on CRM. Believe a few flights will get a pilot used to the challenge-and-response checklist style. Brief a few times on divsion of labor, then practice it.

We talk with prospective new pilots, give them an idea. Truly, walking through the door as a private pilot, with 175 hours or more, most of the work is done. Adding MP is a much, much lighter study and practice lift than, say, getting an instrument rating. Probably a bit less than a Commerial -maybe more like a Multi?

Not trvializing it, and the bookwork and ground training requires more than a few hours. I think four, maybe five, 2.5 hour training flights, three or four study sessions with another MP, and a solid weekend in the books solo could do it.

Your post describes one of the biggest reasons I left CAP.  I fly SAR professionally in both fixed wing and helicopters and CAPs program barely touches the surface of what is required to be proficient.  Ive seen CAP assign high altitude grids to 250hr private pilots.  High Alt, I am talking about 10K + by managers who were not pilots and accepted by pilots who didnt know enough to say no thank you. Mind blowing  At 175hrs, most of the work is done?  I wouldnt fly with a 175hr pilot unless I had access to the controls.  At less than 500hrs I wouldnt have a person anywhere near the mountain and that 500hrs better have had some real mountain flying experience.  At 175hrs a pilot does not even begin to understand how deep being a mission pilot can go unless they come from some background with aviation or SAR.

90kts at 1000ft leaves a lot of time between you and the ground?  Last time I did it with a student, light on fuel and two aboard in a 172, it took 46 seconds from throttle chop to wheels down. 

In a Huey it takes about 10 seconds if anyone cares

[Eclipse]

90kts at 1000ft leaves a lot of time between you and the ground?  Last time I did it with a student, light on fuel and two aboard in a 172, it took 46 seconds from throttle chop to wheels down. 

Not to mention that it's just as plausible for the engine to fail while in a high-angle turn around a point while taking photos, etc.

[JeffDG]

I love the "CRM is running checklists" school of thought.

The MO is NOT a co-pilot.  His duties do not include running checklists with the pilot.  Now, if the MO has a lull in his other duties, fantastic...excellent way to lighten the load and help out.

[SunDog]

Some time to master the skills, but not a lot of time.

Some time to learn the skills, not some time to master the skills.  It takes 10,000 hours to truly master a skill.  To become a trusted MP takes years not months.  New MP's don't need to master the skills right away but please do not trivialize the time needed to master the skills needed for MP.

1,000 AGL leaves a lot of time and space twixt you and the ground at 90 knots in a C172/182. We ain't dragging our fangs in the dirt, at the speed of heat. Our aircraft lack maneveurabilty in the vertical plane, so we don't go up (or down) particularly quickly. I don't think CFIT in VFR  has been a problem for us. Exception is mountain flying, of course, where the ground may  come up after YOU. . .

Pardon, have you had someone pull the power on you without warning at 1,000?  After the obligatory 3-5 seconds when you can't believe that the engine has stopped, you will hit the ground in about a minute.  That means that every second that you are in the grid at 1,000 feet you better have your landing site picked out.  Think you can learn that essential skill that will save the life of your crew in four flights, six months, a year, a lifetime?  Yes save their lives.  This isn't some hamburger run at 4,500 feet, this is a mission that your sole responsibility is to fly the plane safely and protect the lives that are entrusted to you!

Concur with you more readily on CRM. Believe a few flights will get a pilot used to the challenge-and-response checklist style. Brief a few times on divsion of labor, then practice it.

CRM at it's most basic level is running the checklist.  There are so many more aspects to CRM that directly contribute to the success of the CAP mission.  Suggest more CRM study, practice, and thought is required.  Definitely more thought.

We talk with prospective new pilots, give them an idea. Truly, walking through the door as a private pilot, with 175 hours or more, most of the work is done.

Walking through the door with 175 hours is mearly the start of the training, NONE of the work is done.  A 175 hour pilot has a long way to go just to become a proficient and safe pilot, and then the 'initial' MP training begins.

Adding MP is a much, much lighter study and practice lift than, say, getting an instrument rating. Probably a bit less than a Commerial -maybe more like a Multi?

Instrument no, Commercial - HaHa, Multi maybe.  Here is the difference, when you fly at 1,000 feet in possibly hostile terrain there are two other volunteers sitting in that plane that are trusting their lives that you know what you are doing. 

Not trvializing it, and the bookwork and ground training requires more than a few hours. I think four, maybe five, 2.5 hour training flights, three or four study sessions with another MP, and a solid weekend in the books solo could do it.

From what I have been reading, you ARE trivializing MP training, MP requirements, CRM, the inherent dangers of flying at 1000 feet at 90 knots.  I have serious doubts about flying with you!

Are you really a CAP MIssion Pilot?

While not feeling an obligation to hand you my resume, yes, I'm a MP, four figure flight time, and instrument rated. I am not a CFI, IP, or CP.  I think 175 hours is plenty to become a safe and competent pilot in a Cessna 172 or 182.

And, respectfully, I gotta disagree - I have heard the 10,000 hour rule - but MP is a SUB-SET of being a pilot, not a stand-alone skill. The baseline is being a pilot, and all that entails. MP is an add-on. Yep, you won't be the best MP in the Wing if you take the Form 91 at 200 hours, but you'll be competent and safe. If you've passed a F5 and a F91, I'll fly with you.  I think (hope?) CAP doesn't expect every MP will be a master after the first F91. 

I don't see my attitude as trivializing the skills - just satisfied that a 200 hour pilot with some common sense, reasonable intellect, and normal coordination can be a safe, effective MP. Apperantly CAP thinks so, and the CP must have, as well.

I think, from oberservation, that recent experience may be as, or nearly important as, total experience. If you aren't personally  comfortable with a 175 hour pilot, I respect that, that's a personal limitation you are entitled to. If the guy has been flying a lot, and a lot lately, I notice they are usually sharper than a more experienced guy who has had a long lay off.  I see/suspect some people who fly (in any crew position) are apprehensive the entire time - not a good place to be, or to put yourself.  Some eventually master it, get a handle, figure out how to think it through when things go wrong, without getting panicked. Some never get it worked out. . .

It is true that as I gain more total hours, I find I am sharper, longer, and can miss a bit more time and still fly well. I anticipate more, stay ahead of the situtation better, etc. So, total time does matter. But a bright lad or lass who has logged 45 hours in the last two months? My impression is they usually have excellent skills. They may not know where the self-serve pumps are, or remember the FSS number, but they can do the job.

I had one quit at 600 feet on final - certainly got a rush, shaky hands afterwards, but I did O.K, and with less than 200 hours, back in the day. Learned to do a carb-heat-at-idle as an additional, non-Cessna checklist item, too.

CRM is great, and I am a believer; I know what CRM is, and division of labor and attention, and much of that is worked out before flight. Remember, these are very simple aircraft, including the glass, when it comes to emergency procedures. We operate well within their speed, altitude, and performance limitations.  We don't fly them on the ragged edge of the envelope. Our margines are pretty wide, and we almost always have plenty of time.  If the mill stops at 1,000 AGL, you have a reasonable glider - it's not gonna come down like the Space Shuttle. 200 hours, 2,000 hours, keep focused, follow your training. 2,000 hours may touch down a bit smoother. Or, may not.

The immediate bold-face is simple, easily memorized, and quickly completed.  Touch down under control, wings level, as slow as possible, and you can, literally, walk away from a forced landing on the average driveway. We won't be able to use the airplane again, but we'll still have you with us. Probably. . .

Let's not pull the ladder up behind us - most pilots of average talent  can fly our aircraft safely at 1,000 AGL,  at 90 knots, with a brief, well focusde amount of trainig.

[Mustang]

Flying as an MP requires even more paperwork, learning the skills required for demanding flying at 1000 AGL, learning to fly utilizing Crew Resource Management, and the counter-intuitive (to civilian pilots) learning that the MO commands the flight. 

Respectfully, the MO most certainly does NOT "command the flight".  The MP is the pilot in command/aircraft commander and is the FINAL authority as to the conduct of ALL aspects of the sortie, period. In the interest of good CRM, the MP should consult with the MO and MS in planning the sortie, but all final decisions rest with the MP.

This "MO as 'mission commander'" is a bunch of crap dreamt up and perpetuated by the NESA MAS people. It has no basis in the regulations whatsoever. Quite the opposite, in fact.


<-- experienced MP/MO/MS/AOBD/OSC/IC/EIEIO

[Eclipse]

This "MO as 'mission commander'" is a bunch of crap dreamt up and perpetuated by the NESA MAS people. It has no basis in the regulations whatsoever.

NESA is the national and only official CAP school for emergency services.

Its staff contains a number of people from the National Operations Directorate and the curriculum committee.

It makes sense, and it works.

MP = Driver

MO = Mission Commander.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Flying as an MP requires even more paperwork, learning the skills required for demanding flying at 1000 AGL, learning to fly utilizing Crew Resource Management, and the counter-intuitive (to civilian pilots) learning that the MO commands the flight. 

Respectfully, the MO most certainly does NOT "command the flight".  The MP is the pilot in command/aircraft commander and is the FINAL authority as to the conduct of ALL aspects of the sortie, period. In the interest of good CRM, the MP should consult with the MO and MS in planning the sortie, but all final decisions rest with the MP.

This "MO as 'mission commander'" is a bunch of crap dreamt up and perpetuated by the NESA MAS people. It has no basis in the regulations whatsoever. Quite the opposite, in fact.


<-- experienced MP/MO/MS/AOBD/OSC/IC/EIEIO

Nothing good ever comes from postings that start with "Respectfully", and "With all due respect". 

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

This "MO as 'mission commander'" is a bunch of crap dreamt up and perpetuated by the NESA MAS people. It has no basis in the regulations whatsoever.

NESA is the national and only official CAP school for emergency services.

Its staff contains a number of people from the National Operations Directorate and the curriculum committee.

It makes sense, and it works.

MP = Driver

MO = Mission Commander.

+ 1 Eclipse

As a NESA Instructor and CAWG MAS planner you all know my feelings on this.  In my experience, Type "A" personalities have the hardest time adapting to CRM and the concept of MO as Mission Commander.

Type "A"'s have a hard time trusting anyone else to run their checklists for them, their ego has a hard time accepting someone else commanding the mission. 

An adherence to CRM, including challenge and response checklists, predefined roles of MP/MO that compliment each other and balance the workload successfully contribute to a safe, efficient flight in which the success of a safely executed mission is paramount.

Relegating the MO to a Scanner that operates the radio, while you plan the flight, run the checklist, and load yourself up is neither efficient, nor contributes to a successful mission.

[a2capt]

It's a mixed bag- with regards to the aircraft, the PIC has the final say.
With regards to the mission, the observer, or mission base, or IC have the final say, depending on what proximity and scope the decision comes from.
With regards to safety, anyone onboard can say "No. Stop. Now."

Somewhere in all this, if you've got two pilots up front, they're going to figure that out themselves. In 99% of the sorties there's no misunderstanding here.

[Mustang]

This "MO as 'mission commander'" is a bunch of crap dreamt up and perpetuated by the NESA MAS people. It has no basis in the regulations whatsoever.

NESA is the national and only official CAP school for emergency services.

Its staff contains a number of people from the National Operations Directorate and the curriculum committee.

It makes sense, and it works.

MP = Driver

MO = Mission Commander.

If it ain't in the regs, it ain't. 

And it ain't in the regs.

[Eclipse]

If it ain't in the regs, it ain't. 

And it ain't in the regs.

Procedures that make sense and increase crew efficiency don't need to be in the regs.
That's mental gymnastics, especially when there is nothing but ego to the contrary.

For the record, the KB directs members asking about the aircrew duties and responsibilities to
the NESA PPT which explicitly calls out the MO as "Mission Commander" in those words, but you've
decided NESA doesn't count.

But hey, what does NHQ and the head of OPS know that you don't, right?

[Mustang]

Procedures that make sense and increase crew efficiency don't need to be in the regs.
That's mental gymnastics, especially when there is nothing but ego to the contrary.

There's this to the contrary, Bob:

"This regulation prescribes concepts, policies, and standards that govern all Civil Air Patrol (CAP) supervisory, ground, and flight personnel in the training, qualification, and execution of CAP operational missions.  Practices, procedures, and standards prescribed in this regulation are mandatory and may not be supplemented or changed locally without the prior approval of NHQ CAP/DO." (CAPR 60-3)

Unless you can show me an approved supplement authorizing you to implement this locally, you're violating the reg by doing so.

For the record, the KB directs members asking about the aircrew duties and responsibilities to
the NESA PPT which explicitly calls out the MO as "Mission Commander" in those words, but you've decided NESA doesn't count.

But hey, what does NHQ and the head of OPS know that you don't, right?

They know as well as I that neither NESA nor the KB are regulatory in nature, and we are compelled to follow the regs and approved supplements, period.

[Eclipse]

Unless you can show me an approved supplement authorizing you to implement this locally, you're violating the reg by doing so.

"I don't like reality, so show me the supplement."  I can't tell you how tired people trying to get real work done are of hearing that.

BTW - that IC Badge isn't "in the regs", either, but there you go...

[Mustang]

Type "A"'s have a hard time trusting anyone else to run their checklists for them, their ego has a hard time accepting someone else commanding the mission.

Trust me, there are PLENTY of Type A personalities in military and airline cockpits and none of them have a hard time trusting their copilots or first officers to run the checklists. It's their job, in fact. The reason this works in those environments is that both the military and the airlines have detailed standard operating procedures which clearly delineate crew responsibilities by seat, leaving no ambiguity as to who is responsible for what. CAP has no such animal.

An adherence to CRM, including challenge and response checklists, predefined roles of MP/MO that compliment each other and balance the workload successfully contribute to a safe, efficient flight in which the success of a safely executed mission is paramount.

Absolutely right. And should CAP choose to adopt these standards and procedures, I'll enthusiastically apply them.  But they haven't.  And until they do (or your wing/region has an approved supplement implementing them), you're coloring outside the lines--which is highly frowned upon in a mission environment.

Relegating the MO to a Scanner that operates the radio, while you plan the flight, run the checklist, and load yourself up is neither efficient, nor contributes to a successful mission.

Also agree with this, and all good MPs should certainly delegate duties when necessary to manage their workload--but it's quite a leap from delegating duties the MP remains responsible for, to saying the MO is "Mission Commander".  If the MO were truly in command of the sortie, why is there no requirement for any sort of a checkride, either initially or annually, for a position of such great responsibility? 

[Mustang]

"I don't like reality, so show me the supplement."  I can't tell you how tired people trying to get real work done are of hearing that.

Wow. I'd relieve any commander with that attitude. Your job is to uphold CAP standards, not pass judgment on them.

BTW - that IC Badge isn't "in the regs", either, but there you go...

Wrong again, Bob. It's in the ICL to CAPM 39-1 dated 12 Mar 2012.