History of The CAP Distinctive Grey/White Uniform -- Better Options?

[Hawk200]

Here's an idea: Why don't we ask the Air Force what they'd like to see in our alternate uniforms? Seems to be a little too much of, "The Air Force can't tell us what to do!".

I have a feeling that working with them, instead of trying to tell them what they aren't allowed to do with us, will be far more rewarding.

This corporate mindset seems to be creating more problems than it solves. From what I saw in the beginning, the point of the corporate side was so we could shop around our abilities, and gain missions in that manner. It wasn't designed to create a break from the Air Force.

[Eclipse]

The whole idea of this uniform proposal is to simplify the corporate dress uniform.  If it had blue trousers, then it would fall in the same path as the CSU.

Despite what the nervous Nellies at National seem to believe (CAP distinctive - grey, grey and grey), there is one salient fact:

The United States Air Force does not have a monopoly on blue cloth, nor on uniforms cut from blue cloth.

Actually, in the CAP context, they do.

It doesn't matter what the USAF, DOD, or Federal Government can enforce outside of CAP, or that the local PD or SDF wears a uniform that looks "too military", as far as CAP members are concerned, we wear what is authorized by the USAF.  Period.

To Hawk's point, I agree 100%.

I have said for years that the best course for our national leaders is to meet with the USAF, hat in hand, mea culpa the slate clean, and
ask them for the top 5 or ten things the USAF needs from us, and their top 5 or ten annoyances about us, and then go and fix those things immediately, regardless of the internal gnashing of teeth, and not come back to the table until they are fixed, or our avenues for the fixes are exhausted.

1 year and done.

Then we can sit as partners with other services without a bunch of animosity and angst hanging over the conversations.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Actually, in the CAP context, they do.

It doesn't matter what the USAF, DOD, or Federal Government can enforce outside of CAP, or that the local PD or SDF wears a uniform that looks "too military", as far as CAP members are concerned, we wear what is authorized by the USAF.  Period.

Blue of any shade automatically equates to "too military?"

Actually, if you would take the same grey cloth that our epaulettes are cut from, and fashion it into a service coat identical in cut to the Tony Nelson AF uniform, that would look a lot more "military" than even the CSU did.

I have said for years that the best course for our national leaders is to meet with the USAF, hat in hand, mea culpa the slate clean, and ask them for the top 5 or ten things the USAF needs from us, and their top 5 or ten annoyances about us, and then go and fix those things immediately, regardless of the internal gnashing of teeth, and not come back to the table until they are fixed, or our avenues for the fixes are exhausted.

Forgive my cynicism here, since I agree with much of what you have to say, especially the part of asking the AF what they need of us.

But it seems to me that beyond the cadet program providing warm bodies for Lackland, they really don't need us a lot.

Many, many Airmen in this age don't even know who we are.

Yes, we bear some of the blame for that, with the "corporatist" mindset and distancing ourselves from the AF at the National level, but not all.  It would be virtually nothing for the AF to educate trainees at BMT about us, along with the ANG and AFRES.

So, I think the first question should be the one some are afraid to ask the AF:

DO you need us? Are we still relevant to the Air Force in 2010?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Here's an idea: Why don't we ask the Air Force what they'd like to see in our alternate uniforms? Seems to be a little too much of, "The Air Force can't tell us what to do!".

I have a feeling that working with them, instead of trying to tell them what they aren't allowed to do with us, will be far more rewarding.

This corporate mindset seems to be creating more problems than it solves. From what I saw in the beginning, the point of the corporate side was so we could shop around our abilities, and gain missions in that manner. It wasn't designed to create a break from the Air Force.

I agree with you.  I never intended to imply I wanted any sort of break from the AF.  I don't.  In the 17 years I've been in CAP the drift away from the AF has been distressing for me.

My point is that the "low light/at a distance" issue of "distinctiveness" needs to be revisited, along with many other aspects of our relationship.

[Eclipse]

Forgive my cynicism here, since I agree with much of what you have to say, especially the part of asking the AF what they need of us.

But it seems to me that beyond the cadet program providing warm bodies for Lackland, they really don't need us a lot.

Until the USAF is no longer responsible for inland SAR, they need us a LOT, especially considering the continues cutbacks in the military and local governments.  Our services could not be replicated in the private or military sector for less than 10x's what we cost today.

Many, many Airmen in this age don't even know who we are.

Many Airman today could not name the Secretary of Defense or the CJCS, either, that doesn't lessen our value, just presents more opportunity.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Until the USAF is no longer responsible for inland SAR, they need us a LOT, especially considering the continues cutbacks in the military and local governments.  Our services could not be replicated in the private or military sector for less than 10x's what we cost today.

I'm not disputing that...but outside of CAP-USAF and 1st Air Force, how many in the AF know that is one of our missions?

Many Airman today could not name the Secretary of Defense or the CJCS, either, that doesn't lessen our value, just presents more opportunity.

Are they not still required to learn that in BMT?  I know both of those and I'm not in the military.  Heck, our cadets are required to learn that (Chain of Command).

What I mean by education, trying to get back on track here, is that Airmen should know as much about us as they do the ANG and AFRES...I think more education would ameliorate a lot of the problem with new E-1's seeing a 50+ y.o. Second Lieutenant and wondering what this "old guy" is doing wearing "our" uniform and complaining about it.

As to "distinctive" uniforms, I think it's probably an exercise in futility to ask the AF what our "distinctive" uniforms should look like...because the answer will, in all probability, be the grey/white as is, no alteration.

[Hawk200]

What I mean by education, trying to get back on track here, is that Airmen should know as much about us as they do the ANG and AFRES...

I would hope they would know more than that. I didn't know much about the Guard/Reserves just out of BMT, other than the basic facts. Even many of the Guardsmen/Reservists were a little in the dark. Actual information wasn't that in depth. Yes, I went to Air Force Basic.

I think more education would ameliorate a lot of the problem with new E-1's seeing a 50+ y.o. Second Lieutenant and wondering what this "old guy" is doing wearing "our" uniform and complaining about it.

I would agree. Probably wouldn't hurt for the Air Force to teach a little more about all the other uniformed services. Too much "Joint Ops" talk, but little action. There's even issues with joint Active/Reserve units. Although in some of the melded units I've seen, the people worked well together in spite of some of the issues.

As to "distinctive" uniforms, I think it's probably an exercise in futility to ask the AF what our "distinctive" uniforms should look like...because the answer will, in all probability, be the grey/white as is, no alteration.

But you'll never know if you don't ask. At least asking indicates that we would like to work a little more closely with them. That could even garner a few more missions. The idea that CAP is independent really needs to go away. If someone has a problem with being told what to do, they need to find a hobby and leave CAP. We're not here for ourselves, never were. Our history is of service, one way or another.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

But you'll never know if you don't ask. At least asking indicates that we would like to work a little more closely with them. That could even garner a few more missions. The idea that CAP is independent really needs to go away. If someone has a problem with being told what to do, they need to find a hobby and leave CAP. We're not here for ourselves, never were. Our history is of service, one way or another.

I don't hold the idea that CAP is independent of the AF, and, as I've said, since I've been in CAP (1993), I've noticed a worrying trend toward "all we do is fly SAR, and the only way we want the AF involved is to assign mission numbers so we can get funded, reimbursed, etc.  Cadet programs, Aerospace Education, uniforms?  Don't need 'em.  Just put gas in the 172."

I'm sure you remember, as I do, the dark days of 1995, when John McCain wanted us taken away from the AF entirely.  The bad thing is, a surprising amount of the CAP membership agreed!

My idea as far as uniforms go is not to tell the AF "this is what we wear and get stuffed if you don't like it."  My idea is for CAP to come up with several different combinations, ranging from building on the extant G/W to an airline derivative to some of the "police/fire" styles some have presented and asking the AF what they're good with.

I just don't believe an option should be taken off the table simply because it's blue: "Oh, Jeez-Louise, they'll think we're trying to bring back the CSU!!!!"  That's over-reacting as far as I'm concerned.

I'd even be happy with a derivative of the pinks and greens...that is a connection to our history.

[Eclipse]

I don't hold the idea that CAP is independent of the AF, and, as I've said, since I've been in CAP (1993), I've noticed a worrying trend toward "all we do is fly SAR, and the only way we want the AF involved is to assign mission numbers so we can get funded, reimbursed, etc.  Cadet programs, Aerospace Education, uniforms?  Don't need 'em.  Just put gas in the 172."

That's local, or in your circle - by no means is that universal or a trend anywhere I go.

[ZigZag911]

My reading of what USAF prefers in terms of CAP uniforms (based on CAP-USAF CC comments at Winter Board):

1) cadets in USAF style uniforms (after all, it's a recruiting tool for them)

2) seniors (and I suspect they would rather all seniors do this, to "end the confusion") in gray & whites or blue BDU...too many of us simply do not look like the AF ideal for one of its members, and as long as we're in the USAF style uniform some CAP seniors will be mistaken for AF personnel.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That's local, or in your circle - by no means is that universal or a trend anywhere I go.

I have witnessed it, in senior squadrons especially.

You are fortunate that you haven't.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My reading of what USAF prefers in terms of CAP uniforms (based on CAP-USAF CC comments at Winter Board):

1) cadets in USAF style uniforms (after all, it's a recruiting tool for them)

2) seniors (and I suspect they would rather all seniors do this, to "end the confusion") in gray & whites or blue BDU...too many of us simply do not look like the AF ideal for one of its members, and as long as we're in the USAF style uniform some CAP seniors will be mistaken for AF personnel.

• I believe that would prove my hypothesis that the cadet program trumps everything else, at least as far as the AF goes.
• Finally taking away the AF uniform that we have been allowed to wear with pride for 50-odd years...they might as well take away the status of the AF Auxiliary from us.  I for one have considered it an honour to wear the AF uniform and to be forced to chuck that, especially because of the actions of a few (just like the berry boards era), especially for the bloody awful grey/white uniform...I believe not a few people would finally say "that's it" - and these aren't people who are in just to wear the uniform, despite what some may think...they're in for the whole package.
• There are AF people who do not meet the "AF ideal."  And if CAP personnel are mistaken for AF personnel, it is not CAP's fault.  There are plenty of identifiers on our modified AF uniform to make us identifiable.

[Eclipse]

I have witnessed it, in senior squadrons especially.

One of the top reasons why we should do away with them - they tend to get inbred and forget what CAP is really about.

You are fortunate that you haven't.

Believe me, I know.  When I hear some of the stories here, it makes me all the more appreciative of the low-level dysfunctions I have, which pale compared to many of you.

[RiverAux]

My reading of what USAF prefers in terms of CAP uniforms (based on CAP-USAF CC comments at Winter Board):
2) seniors (and I suspect they would rather all seniors do this, to "end the confusion") in gray & whites or blue BDU...too many of us simply do not look like the AF ideal for one of its members, and as long as we're in the USAF style uniform some CAP seniors will be mistaken for AF personnel.

Hmm, I don't recall hearing that unless you are talking about a private conversation you had with him rather than what was in the public sessions.  I'm pretty sure we would have been talking about it non-stop if CAP-USAF made such a statement.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Hmm, I don't recall hearing that unless you are talking about a private conversation you had with him rather than what was in the public sessions.  I'm pretty sure we would have been talking about it non-stop if CAP-USAF made such a statement.

Agreed.  Something that drastic would certainly have bubbled up through the rumour mill by now.

[billford1]

The whole idea of this uniform proposal is to simplify the corporate dress uniform.  If it had blue trousers, then it would fall in the same path as the CSU.

Despite what the nervous Nellies at National seem to believe (CAP distinctive - grey, grey and grey), there is one salient fact:

The United States Air Force does not have a monopoly on blue cloth, nor on uniforms cut from blue cloth.

Shade 1620 and Shade 1550 - those are theirs, and if someone tries to make a uniform out of that, as was done with the CSU, they have every right to raise unholy Hades.

But if we do not use those, there is no reason we cannot have a CAP-distinctive uniform that is blue.  I have already mentioned airline pilot uniforms that are listed as "dark navy."  Civilian designed, civilian made, for civilians.

If we would go lighter in shade, there is no way that the AF could (credibly) say that confusion would result.

Something like RAF blue-grey, or even similar to the US Postal Service, would have blue in it, and would not clash with the extant grey shoulder boards.

This looks closer to our grey than any sort of blue worn by the USAF:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/caswo.cfm

Or even going darker, like the RAAF has done (midnight blue, looks almost black):

http://www.raaf.gov.au/Leaders/caf.aspx

Of course, I'm not blind to the possibility that the AF can invoke the very vague "low-light/at a distance" simply because they don't like something.

My point is, we should not limit ourselves to the extant gray when we do have a wide range to choose from for proposals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_force_blue (bottom of page)

If we could we could swap out gray for Navy Blue that would result in less color diversity. Please no gray pant suit.

[ZigZag911]

CAP-USAF had some pretty strong comments in writing on one of the agendas; I thought it was Winter Boards, could have been May NEC, but I really think it was earlier.

These were reinforced in person by CAP-USAF CC at the meeting, which I watched on my computer.

The statement was made essentially that NO military-appearing CAP distinctive uniform, regardless of color, would be acceptable to USAF.

After the Boards I spoke with someone who was there, who had reliable information that the CAP-USAF CC (Col. Ward?) was communicating the views of several senior USAF generals, including the 3 star commanding AU.

Some of this did get mentioned on CT at the time (in fact, I think I posted about it), but folks either missed the key comments or glossed over them.

[arajca]

Which is why, at the end of the CSU, I'll be exclusively wearing the golf shirt. I wouldn't want to offend any AF generals.

[Eclipse]

CAP-USAF had some pretty strong comments in writing on one of the agendas; I thought it was Winter Boards, could have been May NEC, but I really think it was earlier.

Nothing anyone has been able to cite - the only thing anyone has ever quoted are "I heard", or restatements of the agenda item which contains several factual errors.

To this date, no one has been able to cite a single source as the USAF having any recent angst over the CSU, or even any recent interest in our uniforms at all.

It's all been hearsay and conjecture.

[FW]

Gentlemen, let me help muddy the waters a bit.
First, the Air Force supports all our missions.
Second, the Air Force supports our "Air Force style" uniforms and wants us to wear it correctly.
Third, the "CAP distinctive" uniforms were developed for members not able to wear the "AF style" uniform. 
The current CAP-USAF/CC, Col Ward, has not made any public statements saying anything about the "style" of the distinctive uniforms HOWEVER, the CSAF, has made it clear; the Air Force is the final arbiter on ALL CAP uniforms.  That is in writing and, the official policy of the US Air Force.  Whatever stems from that comment, I will live with.