Does the new Corporate Service Dress Uniform Violate the UCMJ and USC Codes?

Started by Guardrail, February 05, 2007, 06:39:26 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

DNall

Quote from: O-Rex on February 12, 2007, 03:22:46 AM
Quote from: DNall on February 10, 2007, 12:20:29 AM
Also go to pin on CAP halfway btwn the metal grade & button for the jacket & all the Army style outter wear, all that allows you to put the US back on the lapel.

Actually, TP tried to run that up the flagpole about two years ago: we were to wear pin-on rank on the USAF coat, with the CAP shield as a "unit crest."  It got shot down, and the rest you already know....
That's an especially problematic issue since it'd look like army officer. can't be a unit crest

O-Rex

Not really: have you seen the windbreaker? Black! Sound familiar??  Rumor has it that they might use the black trenchcoat too.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall for that dscussion:

Army: "Hey, nobody asked us.."

USAF: "Welcome to our world."

lordmonar

Just a related...but sort of off topic not.....doe the ACA have permission from the Navy, Army and Marines to use their uniforms?
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DNall

You know I have no idea about that. They aren't affiliated formally like we are, but get pretty good support none the less.

Hawk200

Quote from: O-Rex on February 12, 2007, 03:43:24 AM
Not really: have you seen the windbreaker? Black! Sound familiar??  Rumor has it that they might use the black trenchcoat too.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall for that dscussion:

Army: "Hey, nobody asked us.."

USAF: "Welcome to our world."

Funny. Really funny.

But also disturbing, too. How many different branches of service do we risk torquing off, before someone does something about it?

The Air Force may have their directive to support us, but the Army doesn't. And the encampments in my wing? Run on an Army installation. If Pineda decides to relabel the black Army trenchcoat as a "corporate" item, and make it an outergarment for the TPU, how long til the Army refuses to assist us?

Or maybe some states that offer support to our wings mandate that the TPU not be worn on their facilities. Could happen. May not be likely, but it could.

Guardrail

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 12, 2007, 04:09:35 AM
How many different branches of service do we risk torquing off, before someone does something about it?

The Air Force may have their directive to support us, but the Army doesn't. And the encampments in my wing? Run on an Army installation. If Pineda decides to relabel the black Army trenchcoat as a "corporate" item, and make it an outergarment for the TPU, how long til the Army refuses to assist us?

That's a great point!  I never thought of that.  That is reason enough to get rid of this uniform (or change the outergarments to AF ones, at the very least). 

Quote from: RiverAux on February 12, 2007, 02:57:16 AMOr maybe some states that offer support to our wings mandate that the TPU not be worn on their facilities. Could happen. May not be likely, but it could.

Perhaps, but I don't think that will happen without the Army getting torqued off first.

DNall

Full length trenchcoat, with grade on, kinda hard to see the blue pants. Yeah I could see where that would be a problem.

What's the word on the Army conversion to blue service dress. It is going to be a white epaulet shirt w/ black nameplate & black graed slides over the blue pants? Cause yeah most people should be able to tell the difference in those pants & see that the slides are black & not blue & that the stripe on them is gold not silver, but you know that's going to bother some people right?

Dragoon


Hawk200

Quote from: DNall on February 12, 2007, 04:37:54 AM
Full length trenchcoat, with grade on, kinda hard to see the blue pants. Yeah I could see where that would be a problem.

What's the word on the Army conversion to blue service dress. It is going to be a white epaulet shirt w/ black nameplate & black graed slides over the blue pants? Cause yeah most people should be able to tell the difference in those pants & see that the slides are black & not blue & that the stripe on them is gold not silver, but you know that's going to bother some people right?

I keep seeing different information on the stripe. Some sources say their will be one, others say they don't. Even the last time I looked on army.mil, they hadn't decided yet.

Although there will be a little more similarity between Army and Air Force. The thing is, either way, if you show up on an Army installation with Army uniform pieces on, it's going to get someone's blood pressure rising.

It's bad enough that we have the Army windbreaker. It's still an Army uniform item, and the Army may not take well to Civil Air Patrol members wearing it, especially with rank insignia. It won't matter if you can confuse the two or not.

I think this is the biggest danger with the TPU. Other than the coat (which looks Coastie to a lot of folks) it was made up with a number of uniform pieces from various branches. Air Force pants, headgear, rank slides. Army windbreaker, and as mentioned above, possibly the trenchcoat. Those branches weren't consulted, and it may cause issues. Even a black leather jacket extremely similar to an Air Force issue item can be misconstrued.

I know the BDU's are considered military uniform, so we wear it under allowance from the Air Force. Was the Air Force consulted on when the Blue Beret was authorized? I suspect not. And I think limiting it to BDU's (both blue and cammie) was a way of hopefully escaping notice by the Air Force. I still think that one day an Air Force cop is going to really notice, and then there is going to be some problems.

It may or may not be an issue of UCMJ or USC violations. But even if not, there is capacity for great conflict here.

DNall

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 12, 2007, 06:30:31 PM
It may or may not be an issue of UCMJ or USC violations. But even if not, there is capacity for great conflict here.
Which I think we can all agree is pretty easily avoided with some minor changes, right?

Hawk200

Quote from: DNall on February 12, 2007, 08:23:25 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 12, 2007, 06:30:31 PM
It may or may not be an issue of UCMJ or USC violations. But even if not, there is capacity for great conflict here.
Which I think we can all agree is pretty easily avoided with some minor changes, right?

I think it would all depend on the changes.

DNall

There's some mentioned here. Outterwear is a real probelm cause you shouldn't use the AF or Army style w/ or w/o grade. Obviously the best course is to submit corporate uniform items & changes to the aETC uniform board, not for approval but for endorsement.

SAR-EMT1

Question: how much longer is Pineda in office?
Second question: after TP leaves office, how long will the TPU last before it is thrown out by the next CC  ?
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

Hammer

Quote from: Dragoon on February 06, 2007, 08:00:39 PM
Here's the best I could do on short notice.

In the USAF Uniform Reg (AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2903), in table 1-3 it says DO NOT wear:

"in civilian attire. For example: grade insignia, cap devices,
badges and other U.S. or Air Force insignia, distinctive
buttons, etc."

Footnote 6 of that table spells it out

"Officers and Enlisted: Do not wear or mix unique uniform items with civilian clothes.
These items are those unique to the uniform. They include grade insignia, cap devices,
badges and other U. S. or Air Force insignia, such as items with the "Wing and Star"
design, and so forth. Exception: Tie tacs and lapel pins when wearing business attire
authorized."

Now, to me, the CAP corporate uniforms counts as "civilian attire."  (After all that's the whole reason to have them - so we can avoid military oversight.)  Others may have a different view.

So yeah, the grade insignia, both slides and pin-on, would seem to be covered by this.  And, I think so would the "U.S." collar insignia.

Of course, like all rules, it only matters if it's enforced.  If USAF tells its military members who are also in CAP not to wear the corporate service dress, we'll know for sure.  My guess is they won't get around to it.

Let me ask a sensable question:  From what you quoted from the AFI, it's illegal for me to wear the Air Force Hap Arnold cuff links on my white dress shirt?!?!  Is that right or wrong?

ddelaney103

Quote from: Hammer on February 21, 2007, 05:29:16 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on February 06, 2007, 08:00:39 PM
Here's the best I could do on short notice.

In the USAF Uniform Reg (AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2903), in table 1-3 it says DO NOT wear:

"in civilian attire. For example: grade insignia, cap devices,
badges and other U.S. or Air Force insignia, distinctive
buttons, etc."

Footnote 6 of that table spells it out

"Officers and Enlisted: Do not wear or mix unique uniform items with civilian clothes.
These items are those unique to the uniform. They include grade insignia, cap devices,
badges and other U. S. or Air Force insignia, such as items with the "Wing and Star"
design, and so forth. Exception: Tie tacs and lapel pins when wearing business attire
authorized."

Now, to me, the CAP corporate uniforms counts as "civilian attire."  (After all that's the whole reason to have them - so we can avoid military oversight.)  Others may have a different view.

So yeah, the grade insignia, both slides and pin-on, would seem to be covered by this.  And, I think so would the "U.S." collar insignia.

Of course, like all rules, it only matters if it's enforced.  If USAF tells its military members who are also in CAP not to wear the corporate service dress, we'll know for sure.  My guess is they won't get around to it.

Let me ask a sensable question:  From what you quoted from the AFI, it's illegal for me to wear the Air Force Hap Arnold cuff links on my white dress shirt?!?!  Is that right or wrong?

Strictly speaking, yes.

However, let's wade into the those murky gray waters called "spirit of the regs."

The goal of the "no mixing" rule is to avoid wear/use of the uniform or protected items in a way that would reflect poorly on the Service.  We don't want people wearing the Service Dress jacket as a sport coat, for example.  This is similar to the "no wearing to KKK meetings" rule.

While there are lots of people breaking the letter, they're not doing it in a way that reflects poorly on the service.  Wearing your cuff links or putting your grade insignia on your VFW cap probably wouldn't be considered a disrespectful act.

The TPU, as long as you wear it properly and don't try to pass yourself off as a AF officer, will also not break the spirit of the rules.  I liken this to the PD/FD/EMT uniforms that wear military officer insignia - you can be an AD E-6 and a VFD Lieutenant without stepping on anyone's toes.

In truth, with the removal of the grade from the flight cap and the "US" cutouts from the lapels, I think the AF had changed what they considered the heartburn areas.

ColonelJack

Quoting SAR-EMT1:
"Question: how much longer is Pineda in office?
Second question: after TP leaves office, how long will the TPU last before it is thrown out by the next CC  ?"

Major General Pineda has, I believe, one more year left in his term (more or less).

To answer your second question ... I seriously doubt the Corporate Service Uniform will be "thrown out" by the next National Commander.  Though there is a vocal group that doesn't like it and doesn't want it, there's a growing number of CAP officers who either have one or are getting one ... and the new CC isn't going to intentionally torque off a large percentage of his membership by taking that $160 jacket and making it instantly obsolete.  (Not if the next CC is a person of at least moderate intelligence, anyway.)

I really am having a hard time understanding some of the vicious hatred of the uniform.  The "it doesn't look good" line, I can understand, though I disagree with it.  The "it wasn't properly approved/introduced" line I can deal with, though once again, I can't see how it could've been done otherwise.  But to just plain hate the thing with such vitriol and demand its immediate rescindance -- or outright banning -- or worse ... this I don't understand.

Remember, we're the Air Force's Auxiliary.  We're not the Air Force.  We're supposed to look somewhat different.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

Hammer

Quote from: ddelaney103 on February 21, 2007, 05:54:58 PM
Quote from: Hammer on February 21, 2007, 05:29:16 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on February 06, 2007, 08:00:39 PM
Here's the best I could do on short notice.

In the USAF Uniform Reg (AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2903), in table 1-3 it says DO NOT wear:

"in civilian attire. For example: grade insignia, cap devices,
badges and other U.S. or Air Force insignia, distinctive
buttons, etc."

Footnote 6 of that table spells it out

"Officers and Enlisted: Do not wear or mix unique uniform items with civilian clothes.
These items are those unique to the uniform. They include grade insignia, cap devices,
badges and other U. S. or Air Force insignia, such as items with the "Wing and Star"
design, and so forth. Exception: Tie tacs and lapel pins when wearing business attire
authorized."

Now, to me, the CAP corporate uniforms counts as "civilian attire."  (After all that's the whole reason to have them - so we can avoid military oversight.)  Others may have a different view.

So yeah, the grade insignia, both slides and pin-on, would seem to be covered by this.  And, I think so would the "U.S." collar insignia.

Of course, like all rules, it only matters if it's enforced.  If USAF tells its military members who are also in CAP not to wear the corporate service dress, we'll know for sure.  My guess is they won't get around to it.

Let me ask a sensable question:  From what you quoted from the AFI, it's illegal for me to wear the Air Force Hap Arnold cuff links on my white dress shirt?!?!  Is that right or wrong?

Strictly speaking, yes.

However, let's wade into the those murky gray waters called "spirit of the regs."

The goal of the "no mixing" rule is to avoid wear/use of the uniform or protected items in a way that would reflect poorly on the Service.  We don't want people wearing the Service Dress jacket as a sport coat, for example.  This is similar to the "no wearing to KKK meetings" rule.

While there are lots of people breaking the letter, they're not doing it in a way that reflects poorly on the service.  Wearing your cuff links or putting your grade insignia on your VFW cap probably wouldn't be considered a disrespectful act.

The TPU, as long as you wear it properly and don't try to pass yourself off as a AF officer, will also not break the spirit of the rules.  I liken this to the PD/FD/EMT uniforms that wear military officer insignia - you can be an AD E-6 and a VFD Lieutenant without stepping on anyone's toes.

In truth, with the removal of the grade from the flight cap and the "US" cutouts from the lapels, I think the AF had changed what they considered the heartburn areas.

Oh great, I can wear the tie tac but not the matching cuff links...  Legally, since it says tie tac, I can't wear clip.  Nice.

If the individual did earn the MoH, then legally he CAN wear his uniform to KKK meetings.  Pretty handy since now they are wearing BDU's, or so I saw on the History Channel.

davedove

Quote from: Hawk200 on February 12, 2007, 06:30:31 PM

It's bad enough that we have the Army windbreaker. It's still an Army uniform item, and the Army may not take well to Civil Air Patrol members wearing it, especially with rank insignia. It won't matter if you can confuse the two or not.

Technically, the windbreaker is not an official uniform item, it is a piece of civilian style clothing that has been authorized for optional uniform wear.  The regs allow the wear of the windbreaker as a civilian item:

27–30. Windbreaker, black (from AR 670-1)
c. How worn. All personnel may wear the windbreaker with the class B, hospital duty, and food service uniforms.  Personnel will not wear the windbreaker in formations unless authorized by the commander. Personnel will wear the windbreaker zipped to at least the second button down from the top of the shirt. Only non-subdued, pin-on grade insignia is worn on the windbreaker. Personnel may wear the windbreaker without insignia when wearing civilian clothing. (emphasis mine.)

Now the problem comes when you try to add insignia and such:
1–12. Distinctive uniforms and uniform items
a. The following uniform items are distinctive and will not be sold to or worn by unauthorized personnel:
(1) All Army headgear, when worn with insignia.
(2) Badges and tabs (identification, marksmanship, combat, and special skill).
(3) Uniform buttons (U.S. Army or Corps of Engineers).
(4) Decorations, service medals, service and training ribbons, and other awards and their appurtenances.
(5) Insignia of any design or color that the Army has adopted.
b. Individuals will remove all distinctive items before disposing of unserviceable uniform items.

So, it could be adopted for CAP corporate wear with no rank insignia or CAP distinctive insignia, but not anything that looks like Army insignia.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

DNall

Quote from: ColonelJack on February 21, 2007, 06:10:27 PM
Quoting SAR-EMT1:
"Question: how much longer is Pineda in office?
Second question: after TP leaves office, how long will the TPU last before it is thrown out by the next CC  ?"

Major General Pineda has, I believe, one more year left in his term (more or less).

To answer your second question ... I seriously doubt the Corporate Service Uniform will be "thrown out" by the next National Commander.  Though there is a vocal group that doesn't like it and doesn't want it, there's a growing number of CAP officers who either have one or are getting one ... and the new CC isn't going to intentionally torque off a large percentage of his membership by taking that $160 jacket and making it instantly obsolete.  (Not if the next CC is a person of at least moderate intelligence, anyway.)

I really am having a hard time understanding some of the vicious hatred of the uniform.  The "it doesn't look good" line, I can understand, though I disagree with it.  The "it wasn't properly approved/introduced" line I can deal with, though once again, I can't see how it could've been done otherwise.  But to just plain hate the thing with such vitriol and demand its immediate rescindance -- or outright banning -- or worse ... this I don't understand.

Remember, we're the Air Force's Auxiliary.  We're not the Air Force.  We're supposed to look somewhat different.
We're supposed to be somewhat different by THEIR choice & according to what THEY designate for us. The corporate-STYLE unforms have never until recently even been uniforms. They were always standardized business attire people were likely to already have in their closet before joining. And, they were wupposed to look distinctly un-military. For better or worse the current shift is a big one that has gone far beyond the spirit of having alternative uniforms in the first place. At some point it's going to go too far & require sweeping corrective action by AF that will hurt us all. A lot of people will argue this uniform combination is that step across the line that's going to eventually piss them off enough to slap us down again.

A uniform change like this that seduces members into buying it even though it's problematic around the military & approved by a VERY unacceptable process, is very very bad. A new CC that lets that stand w/o modification merely because members are still caught up in that seduction is seriously lacking in moral courage, and if that's the case they aren't capable of doing the job.

It's absolutely fact that this combination w/ AF slides on the white shirt IS pissing off people on AF bases all over the place. It's matter of time before that alone or in combination with other factors causes serious problems. That's not something CAP can deal with & not worth any amount of gain from this combination.

Anyway, the only thing I'm asking for is embroider CAP on the top of those AF slides & that's it. I don't care about the nametag, I like the two-line tag & think it ought to be adopted across the board for blue or white shirts & for cadets too. I think that potentially sets the stage for CAP to get back the blue CAP slides or something like them (black maybe) down the road. I really don't understand why this was done in the first place though. I got no problem with the blue pants & such, do think it should include the flight hat exactly as worn with blues, but why not stick with gray slides? What made them think this was a good idea when AF already said no over & over again to similiar changes in the uniforms they do control.


Quote from: davedove on February 21, 2007, 06:42:09 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 12, 2007, 06:30:31 PM
It's bad enough that we have the Army windbreaker. It's still an Army uniform item, and the Army may not take well to Civil Air Patrol members wearing it, especially with rank insignia. It won't matter if you can confuse the two or not.
Technically, the windbreaker is not an official uniform item, it is a piece of civilian style clothing that has been authorized for optional uniform wear.  The regs allow the wear of the windbreaker as a civilian item
Yes but it's being worn WITH metal grade AND with a uniform, not as civilian attire. I think you'll find they have a problem with that.

davedove

Quote from: DNall on February 21, 2007, 06:59:55 PM

Quote from: davedove on February 21, 2007, 06:42:09 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 12, 2007, 06:30:31 PM
It's bad enough that we have the Army windbreaker. It's still an Army uniform item, and the Army may not take well to Civil Air Patrol members wearing it, especially with rank insignia. It won't matter if you can confuse the two or not.
Technically, the windbreaker is not an official uniform item, it is a piece of civilian style clothing that has been authorized for optional uniform wear.  The regs allow the wear of the windbreaker as a civilian item
Yes but it's being worn WITH metal grade AND with a uniform, not as civilian attire. I think you'll find they have a problem with that.

I would think so too, as the metal insignia are definitely "distinctive uniform items."  I would also make that argument about the blue AF slides.

I really wonder what possessed them to use the blue slides instead of just using the gray slides.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003