OBC moving to eServices - open to start anytime?

Started by Майор Хаткевич, August 09, 2012, 03:44:41 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Майор Хаткевич

http://www.capmembers.com/cap_university/officer-basic-course/

Am I reading this right? Just have to wait another 11 days and I can simply start it on eServices?

jeders

It's all a part of the new Learning Management System which includes ICUT.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Майор Хаткевич

In that case great!

Now to actually find an SLS course...

Walkman


Майор Хаткевич

Yes but there aren't any I can find. Our wing discourages online course.

Spaceman3750


Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on August 10, 2012, 02:10:58 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 09, 2012, 10:08:28 PM
Our wing discourages online course.

Says who?

A conversation relayed to me when someone inquired about it. I can even see the point, I just don't see any coming up soon in the wing/surrounding wings.

Critical AOA


I did SLS & CLC in person but OBC online.  I enjoyed the interaction of the in person courses but the self-paced nature of the online OBC.  I think it is a good mix.  I don't believe that all should be on line.
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."   - George Bernard Shaw

PWK-GT

#8
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on August 10, 2012, 02:10:58 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 09, 2012, 10:08:28 PM
Our wing discourages online course.

Says who?

The Wing Professional Development Officer.

And here is a sanitized snippet of the email sent:  "We have received notice that you have signed up for the waiting list for the online Squadron Leadership School (SLS) and I would like to discuss that application with you.

SLS / CLC is intended to be an in-residence course and is the preferred method.  Because the nature of this course is interactive learning, the knowledge you will acquire over that weekend training is amplified by the interaction you will have with the Instructors and your fellow students to help with your CAP career.

We do understand that some members have unusual circumstances which may prevent them from attending the traditional in-residence courses and we want to do everything to help you progress through the Professional Development program. For that reason, the Commander is willing to consider applications for the on-line courses on a case-by-case basis."


Emphasis mine.

When asked about other in-person offerings for the remainder of the year, they admitted none were on the calendar....and weren't even being talked about yet. Barring that, he was advised to pursue the online option by his CoC.
"Is it Friday yet"


Garibaldi

Quote from: PWK-GT on August 10, 2012, 04:05:38 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on August 10, 2012, 02:10:58 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 09, 2012, 10:08:28 PM
Our wing discourages online course.

Says who?

The Wing Professional Development Officer.

And here is a sanitized snippet of the email sent:  "We have received notice that you have signed up for the waiting list for the online Squadron Leadership School (SLS) and I would like to discuss that application with you.

SLS / CLC is intended to be an in-residence course and is the preferred method.  Because the nature of this course is interactive learning, the knowledge you will acquire over that weekend training is amplified by the interaction you will have with the Instructors and your fellow students to help with your CAP career.

We do understand that some members have unusual circumstances which may prevent them from attending the traditional in-residence courses and we want to do everything to help you progress through the Professional Development program. For that reason, the Commander is willing to consider applications for the on-line courses on a case-by-case basis."


Emphasis mine.

Sounds to me like someone is afraid they'll lose their "job" if people stop going to actual classes and take on-line courses. Our wing is so widespread that the nearest unit to us is more than 55 miles away. Wing is 210 miles away. We are hosting a CLC in September and are doing both classes AND WebX (or however you spell that). If someone tried to "discourage" our members that way, there'd be a revolt.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

PWK-GT

^ +1

In all fairness, as I haven't had time to peruse all the Wing policies / supps, I don't see this "policy" posted anywhere either.

Additionally, the affected member is in LE, working a LOT of nights and weekends...which legitimately skews his schedule for these things. But as he is an uber-engaged member, who just knocked out GTM3 (locally) and GTL (NESA) in the last 45 days, nobody can accuse him of being a slacker.

So we wait and see what the Wing CC says.....
"Is it Friday yet"


a2capt

The interesting thing here is that I'm sure NHQ put a lot of thought into the course curriculum that is offered online and realizes that until this point these weekend courses have been built around interaction among the peers. Something that isn't easy, if at all, to duplicate in the online environment. However also all along the correspondence distance learning option has always been there.

I'm guessing that they counted on it's reputation of being so "awful" that anyone would opt for a weekend to wrap it up if it were available to them. 

...and now from what I've heard, from those who've taken the course online, the reviews have been more positive than not, so now that the other option has been updated for the 21st century and updated content wise, they're suddenly "afraid", "leery", or whatever, of it? Were they doing the same thing if people signed up for the ECI course equiv.? Sending out letters guilting you into withdrawing from the course?

Is this the way the new registation works? You sign up, and then have to get approval, and not get approval beforehand? As it stands now, you only need approval from your unit CC and the course director (by virtue of accepting your application/CAPF/whatever) to take a class, and now this seems backwards. You sign up, and then your Wing PDO has the opportunity to dissuade you from continuing, in effect "disapproving" your attendance, when they were not involved in that loop at all prior to this.

That seems.. overreaching, un-necessary, counterproductive, micromanaging and .. nuts. To me.

Eclipse

There will most certainly be one more this year, at least, down South.  Otherwise, put one on the calendar up your way.

That is much preferable to the check box of an online situation.  There's certainly more then a few people who need it - you've got two in the same unit in this thread.

This isn't about people worried about losing their jobs, but CAP is not a correspondence course, and these PD situations are supposed to be conversational with your peers to understand, what is happening locally.

"That Others May Zoom"

EMT-83

My experience is the Wing CC is notified when a member signs up for on-line SLS or CLC, and is given the chance to nix it. Those emails are forwarded to me (DPD), just so I'm kept in the loop.

Our preference is that members attend a traditional classroom course, for the networking opportunities, but I can't imagine on-line participation being denied, unless there's something else funky going on with that person's membership.

Walkman

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 09, 2012, 10:08:28 PM
Yes but there aren't any I can find. Our wing discourages online course.

I ran into a similar issue when I was up for Captain. I was't able to attend an earlier Wing SLS because of work, and there weren't any other ones scheduled for that year. My TIG was coming close for the promotion. So my CC went up the chain and was able to get approval for our unit to host our own SLS. The Group CC offered his business office as a venue and we had a very successful and well attended class with students from all over the Wing.

Lesson: Good commanders take care of their people.

jjmalott

Quote from: EMT-83 on August 10, 2012, 01:03:55 PM
My experience is the Wing CC is notified when a member signs up for on-line SLS or CLC, and is given the chance to nix it. Those emails are forwarded to me (DPD), just so I'm kept in the loop.

Our preference is that members attend a traditional classroom course, for the networking opportunities, but I can't imagine on-line participation being denied, unless there's something else funky going on with that person's membership.


I'm an instructor for the on-line SLS and CLC.  I understand the preference of the traditional classroom.  But, if the thought is the online setup doesn't present any networking opportunities........I would argue otherwise. 


Jeff Malott, Lt Col, CAP
National eLearning Coordinator

caphornbuckle

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 10, 2012, 02:14:21 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on August 10, 2012, 02:10:58 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 09, 2012, 10:08:28 PM
Our wing discourages online course.

Says who?

A conversation relayed to me when someone inquired about it. I can even see the point, I just don't see any coming up soon in the wing/surrounding wings.

Indiana Wing is looking to host a PD weekend with SLS, CLC, & UCC.  This is all pending except for the CLC.  Looks like 3 November 2012 at the Anderson Preparatory Academy in Anderson, IN.

PM me for more info!
Lt Col Samuel L. Hornbuckle, CAP

Garibaldi

Quote from: caphornbuckle on August 10, 2012, 02:49:09 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 10, 2012, 02:14:21 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on August 10, 2012, 02:10:58 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 09, 2012, 10:08:28 PM
Our wing discourages online course.

Says who?

A conversation relayed to me when someone inquired about it. I can even see the point, I just don't see any coming up soon in the wing/surrounding wings.

Indiana Wing is looking to host a PD weekend with SLS, CLC, & UCC.  This is all pending except for the CLC.  Looks like 3 November 2012 at the Anderson Preparatory Academy in Anderson, IN.

PM me for more info!

ARWG is having one in September. Our unit is hosting it and I THINK there's WebX involved for those distance learning types.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

MSG Mac

Quote from: EMT-83 on August 10, 2012, 01:03:55 PM
My experience is the Wing CC is notified when a member signs up for on-line SLS or CLC, and is given the chance to nix it. Those emails are forwarded to me (DPD), just so I'm kept in the loop.

Our preference is that members attend a traditional classroom course, for the networking opportunities, but I can't imagine on-line participation being denied, unless there's something else funky going on with that person's membership.

My preference is that SLS or CLC were held by each group in a Wing at least semi-annually. It's nice to say we'd prefer the classroom version, but if you're not having them why have that policy.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Eclipse

In this case the wing traditionally runs 3-4 per year, including one in the home AOR of the member(s) being discussed, and they could light one up any time they wanted to.  With a new wing CC and a lot of new staff, including down through the units, the wing's been in transition and hasn't been advanced planning as much as they usually do, not an excuse, but certainly no need to start being concerned that people will not get their PD needs filled.  This is not one of those cases where the wing "hopefully" runs one per year.

Quote from: jjmalott on August 10, 2012, 02:24:38 PMI'm an instructor for the on-line SLS and CLC.  I understand the preference of the traditional classroom.  But, if the thought is the online setup doesn't present any networking opportunities........I would argue otherwise.

Chatting online is not "networking" in the sense that has value - other than random chance, the participants won't know each other or even be in the same wing.  The valuable networking is commanders and staff from the same area discussing specific challenges that they might be able to solve together because they are sharing the same resources and people.

Further, easily 1/3 or more of the value of SLS / CLS is discussing policies, procedures, impediments and wives tales that exist within a wing and explaining them or dispelling them.  That's 1/3 of the whole point that literally cannot be done online at the national level.

Then there's the "effort" aspect - getting up, getting dressed, rearranging your life a bit is part of the "game" - you show up and are put in the mindset of doing CAP business, focused on CAP, and hopefully sequestered for a few hours - a lot different then sitting in your bathrobe with the kids making noise behind you while you update Facebook on another window.

"That Others May Zoom"

JeffDG

Quote from: Eclipse on August 10, 2012, 04:29:04 PM
Chatting online is not "networking" in the sense that has value - other than random chance, the participants won't know each other or even be in the same wing.  The valuable networking is commanders and staff from the same area discussing specific challenges that they might be able to solve together because they are sharing the same resources and people.
You know what happens when you look at the academic literature on this?  You're dead wrong.

Face to face "brainstorming" of issues is a worse way of coming up with ideas than people working on their own.  The more people you add to the mix, the worse it performs

On-line collaboration is the opposite.  People collaborating online tend to be more effective at solving problems than individuals.

Face to face brainstorming creates some social cohesion, but does not solve problems.

ZigZag911

In my experience the problem with CAP seniors is not getting them to socialize, but to actually read regulations, directives, and then think about the reasons underlying them...also, planning activities and courses.

Frankly, I think the online approach is going to be more standardized, more informative and more focused than our 'in-residence' courses, which vary so greatly from one weekend or location to another.

JaL5597

Meh...

I took SLS and TLC the "traditional" way and the OBC and CLC online.

The "traditional" methods allow for the face to face contact but also allows people to simply sit in the back and just occupy a seat simply to receive credit.  The online CLC while people knock the premise of it did not guarantee graduation and if I remember right almost a quarter of the class was dropped for non participation.   My group had some issues with tasks in the class due to the online nature of what we were doing but I think most people walked away from the class having learned something.

Networking?  Turned out there were three of us in my class from the same wing and that helped even though we were split up by the instructor.  I was able to use the experience to find out what seniors in other parts of the country were doing to bring ideas back to my squadron in an attempt to improve our program.  There are 13 squadrons in my wing and the new perspective that the class provided helped me in the program and gave me some new ides and ways to look at things.  Something I might add might not of happened if I was looking at things from the same way everyone else in the wing is.

The online classes are not for everyone and I have recommended to people that they not go that route but that is more based on the person and not anything against the class.

Eclipse

#23
Quote from: JeffDG on August 10, 2012, 05:06:59 PM
You know what happens when you look at the academic literature on this?  You're dead wrong.

Not by a long, grand canyon-sized shot, no way, no how.  First, those "academic studies" are nonsense, I've read them - they are propagated by people
invested in social media.  You have academic studies, I have 12+ years of leading these activities and see exactly how much the impact initiate, spirit and actual action.

Second, we're not talking about "brain storming", we're literally talking about social cohesion, that's one of the points of the SLS / CLC's latest rev.
Getting people out of their home squadron, exposed to the "real" CAP in s different, less benevolent environment, so that maybe some of their ideas
are called into question.

Heck - just seeing other people in uniform generally helps 1/4 of the class who still think we're wearing wing patches on blues, and grade on one collar.

You want to figure out cold fusion? Yeah, maybe working by yourself in mom's basement is better.  Want to figure out how to cooperate to fly more O-rides, get better training accomplished, or decipher / dispel a bunch of wives tales?  That requires being in the same room and asking collective / collaborative questions.

One of the reasons CAP is struggling is specifically because of this nonsense that it can be accomplished between Quesadillas and Halo over Teamspeak.

It cant.

There are places where technology moves things forward, makes things easier, or relieves some burden.  Professional Development training is not one of them.

"That Others May Zoom"

JeffDG

Quote from: Eclipse on August 10, 2012, 06:58:02 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on August 10, 2012, 05:06:59 PM
You know what happens when you look at the academic literature on this?  You're dead wrong.

Not by a long, grand canyon-sized shot, no way, no how.  First, those "academic studies" are nonsense, I've read them - they are propagated by people
invested in social media.  You have academic studies, I have 12+ years of leading these activities and see exactly how much the impact initiate, spirit and actual action.
I'm impressed these social media proponents who have debunked brainstorming were so forward looking.  These go back to the 60s and, unlike your vast experience, the more current studies use things like empirical data and fMRIs

Eclipse

#25
Yes, by all means let's use data regarding online learning from the 60-'s.  Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the very well accepted ideas of the Kaizen which is the exact opposite of online, distributed learning and working.  Getting people in the same room with a fixed focus and no distractions.  I'll take those over a webconference any day, assuming you're looking to actually accomplish more then just punch a ticket.

The comment that people feel free to simply drop the class without ramifications closes the argument - clearly zero positive peer pressure exists, or they found that class was not even worth the zero-effort of logging in.  The bar is on the floor and even that's too high?

Not to mention that if the online class has academic requirements not found in the in-face, then they aren't even the same class, are they?

"That Others May Zoom"

JaL5597

Quote from: Eclipse on August 10, 2012, 10:28:22 PM
Yes, by all means let's use data regarding online learning from the 60-'s.  Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the very well accepted ideas of the Kaizen which is the exact opposite of online, distributed learning and working.  Getting people in the same room with a fixed focus and no distractions.  I'll take those over a webconference any day, assuming you're looking to actually accomplish more then just punch a ticket.

The comment that people feel free to simply drop the class without ramifications closes the argument - clearly zero positive peer pressure exists, or they found that class was not even worth the zero-effort of logging in.  The bar is on the floor and even that's too high?

Not to mention that if the online class has academic requirements not found in the in-face, then they aren't even the same class, are they?

If you find the online forum so useless then why do you have almost sixteen thousand posts on here?


Eclipse

Quote from: JaL5597 on August 10, 2012, 10:47:40 PM
If you find the online forum so useless then why do you have almost sixteen thousand posts on here?

Relevance?

I have 16k posts here because A: I have TMTOMH + TMBFMOG, and B: because CAP is something I care about and am heavily invested in.
I would also compare my 16k posts here, to the majority of people who participate in the social nonsense, of which I do not participate.  So
I waste my bandwidth and attention here, arguing about berets and ribbons instead of keeping up to date on the dinner and TV-watching habits
of my "friends".


Quote from: Eclipse on August 10, 2012, 06:58:02 PM
There are places where technology moves things forward, makes things easier, or relieves some burden.  Professional Development training is not one of them.

"That Others May Zoom"

JaL5597

While I found the OBC annoying it was better than having to memorize all the errors in the ECI-13 books so it was possible to pass the tests.  It serves its purpose in exposing members to a number of areas within our program.

I am not sure what the issue is about the "academic" requirements about the online professional development courses is.  The goal is to make sure you learn something and not just occupy a seat.  I could go to CLC and sit there for two days and be talked at and retain ZERO and then look like a total idiot when I go back to my unit or I could actively participate and maybe learn something in the process.  And then be an asset to my squadron and wing. 

There is nothing wrong with exchanging ideas and man we did a lot of that and a great deal of arguing to the point that some of the CT flame wars look mild.  The only thing I took issue with was a "team building" module which we couldn't really see the point of in the online classroom.

But hey what do I know.

SarDragon

I know that Bob (Eclipse) and I have been at odds many yimes in the past, but I am compelled to agree with him on this issue.

A group-paced SLS or CLC serves several functions.

There's the class itself, with both presentation and discussion segments. The curriculum is well put together, and conveys a lot of useful information over a single weekend.

There is the networking aspect, and the opportunity to put names with faces, and talk about issues on an informal basis with members from other units.

There is the instructor/director aspect that no one seems to have mentioned before. Let's review some PD requirements:

Level II - Complete SLA as a student

Level III - Complete SLS as a student

Level IV - Serve in a director or staff member capacity in a CAP approved course or serve as a director or staff member of a national, region, or wing conference

Level V - Conduct a Level I Foundations Course summary conversation and serve in a director or staff member capacity in a CAP approved course

One of the best ways to complete the Level IV and Level V requirements is by teaching at a SLS and/or CLC. Shifting these courses to an on-line format robs members of these opportunities.

I have taught SLS, and it was great to be able to see the students work with each other during the course's team exercises. I don't think the online environment can provide that experience to the students.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Eclipse

Quote from: JaL5597 on August 10, 2012, 10:59:45 PM
While I found the OBC annoying it was better than having to memorize all the errors in the ECI-13 books so it was possible to pass the tests.  It serves its purpose in exposing members to a number of areas within our program.

Despite the title of the thread, we're not talking about the OBC, which is a push, at best, it was always a correspondence course designed to
be completed by a single person.  ECI-13 needed to be updated, and the OBC did just that.  This is a place where technology was the best solution.

We are discussing online SLS/CLC, which is the exact opposite of the OBC in that it is designed and intended to be a discussion situation between local
peers and mentors, not another excuse to not be involved locally.

The SLS is supposed to mentor unit commanders and staff, and the CLC Wing & Region staff.  As a commander, I want to insure my people are getting the correct message as it applies locally, and with any polices and procedures I think are important covered as well.  That's the whole point of these things.

The next thing we'll see is an online TLC & UCC, which would really miss the point.

"That Others May Zoom"

Fubar

Quote from: SarDragon on August 10, 2012, 11:07:47 PMA group-paced SLS or CLC serves several functions.

I would say SLS or CLC can serve several functions, however I have seen several that do not adequately fulfill the intended purpose. My SLS experience was so poor, I sought out the online version of CLC based upon my experience.

Obviously the better solution here would be to hold SLS/CLC activities to a minimum standard throughout the organization, but that's pretty darn hard to do (see: encampment, TLC, CLC, etc).

As the "customer" of these courses, I elected not to be punished for a poor execution of CLC and decided to go online, which resulted in a better experience for me than had I attended in person. If the CLC courses being held at the time were of the caliber that Eclipse describes, then I would have definitely gone in person.

Eclipse

^ Unfortunately your experience is not atypical, and in typical CAP fashion, instead of fixing the actual problem, we create an
entire new bureaucracy to avoid uncomfortable conversations.

"That Others May Zoom"

LGM30GMCC

I see value in both on-line and off-line SLS/CLC. I just finished SOS by correspondence a couple months ago. I went to ASBC in residence, and have been to a number of CAP and USAF in-residence courses. I greatly prefer the in-residence courses but I also don't buy the 'zero value' of distance learning methods.

You've said they 'can't' network and 'can't share ideas or wives tails' when that is precisely what we do here all the freaking time. We bounce ideas around, we argue about this and that, and we get to know each other (for better or worse) in some capacity. Remove the screen names and use real names (which you can do in a more secure environment) and suddenly it makes a lot more sense.

'Command and Communities of Practice' an article in ASPJ by Maj Christopher Daniels, Maj Don Grove, and Maj Ed Mundt describes some of what Eclispe is referring to as 'useless'. The article talks about how HP, IBM, BP, Chrysler, Xerox, and the USAF have all been implementing similar ideas to connect people to their peers to spread the implicit knowledge within the organization.

There is the worry about a lack of consequences for dropping out or failure of a course; yet in-residence courses of CAP don't have any either other than lost money and time. As has been pointed out, going to a 'show up and graduate' course, you can sit in the back of the room and have zero interaction and still pass unless the school very specifically lays out pass/fail metrics, and consistently applies/enforces them and makes sure students are aware of them.

I strongly prefer in-residence courses. I believe they have greater value and done well are definitely better. I do not believe on-line courses are worthless. My understanding is on-line SLS/CLC actually has testing and a pass/fail metric system. I know the Basic IG Course does and it is on-line. I would have preferred something in-residence but since it wasn't offered, I took the on-line one and it was good.

I definitely encourage folks to get to the in-residence courses, the sad truth is there are a number of wings that just don't do a good job about them in some capacity. We can rail on the commanders all we want (and I think there should be more accountability of commanders than there is) but there does need to be a balance. If CAP had a lot more money to help get people to these courses it would help, but that is a different discussion for a different time.

Walkman

There are models for online learning that do hit on the points of concern mentioned here. My son graduated this year from a fully accredited online high school that held students to a very high academic standard and had a rigorous course of study (he attended 2 years). The software used for the classes was very well put together.

There was a window showing the instructor on web cam, a window for PPT or whiteboard style presentation, a smaller window showing each student on webcam and a chat box with expanded features like "raising your hand" and "yes" or "no" buttons. The instructor would present the class using his webcam and usually a PowerPoint presentation, the students would click the "raise your hand" button to ask questions, discussion was handled either via chatbox or by group webcam. There was lively interaction possible between everyone and I saw it happen as well. Sometimes the teacher would transfer the main webcam window over to a student and they would drive the discussion.

Results: which cadet do you think was the one bringing up Montesquieu, The Spirit of Laws and it's place in the U.S. Constitution during Character Development?  8)

I used the system during semi-annual staff/parent meetings where the headmaster and some of the teachers would discuss how to mentor and work with the students during the classes. We'd have parents from all over the country together for some very good discussions.

I guess my point is this: My preference for classes like this would be live and in person first. I'm a front row, likes to discuss & debate kind of student. However, I have seen technology that is able to recreate a decent amount of the dynamics of that kind of classroom remotely. That would be my second choice if there were no options to attend a class. I would rather not take a class like SLS in a format like the OBC if I could avoid it. Reading lots of text than multiple choice at the end isn't my best learning mode, personally.

What's the software format of the new online SLS? What kind f features does it have?

Майор Хаткевич

Sir. Mind sharing the specific program used for your son?

Walkman

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 13, 2012, 03:53:21 AM
Sir. Mind sharing the specific program used for your son?

Wilco. I'll have to do it later tonight.

JaL5597

Quote from: Walkman on August 13, 2012, 03:22:55 AM
What's the software format of the new online SLS? What kind f features does it have?

Moodle.

It is a similar platform to Blackboard which is used by colleges and universities in the online academic setting.  Its fairly straightforward.