Hawk Mountain Ranger School

[sarmed1]

"... that others may live" was the ending of the Code of the Air Rescueman's  as penned by BG Richard Kight (a LTC at the time and commander of the Air Rescue Service ..'46-'52)... i

mk

[Spike]

"... that others may live" was the ending of the Code of the Air Rescueman's  as penned by BG Richard Kight (a LTC at the time and commander of the Air Rescue Service ..'46-'52)... i

mk

You win!   :clap: :clap: :clap:

[sarmed1]

ok trivia aside:  my HMRS disclaimer...of sorts
As with all CAP activities your personal mileage (and experiences) may vary.  That being said either to the positive or the negative of HMRS or any activity your opinions should be based on your personal experience rather than the experience of others...
poor.....Recon sucks because people told me they had a horrible time and the instructors are dumb.
not so poor....Others in my have squadron have told me that Recon school sucks; they had a bad experience there

I would expect that senior members here would make the same analogy.....go experience it for your self, then spew your opinion (good or bad or somewhere in between) based on what you saw/did...not what others told you

I would be more than happy to answer any questions about either winter or summer courses (of at least things I have knowledge of....specific incidents I doidnt see I cant really say much about)

mk

[davidsinn]

ok trivia aside:  my HMRS disclaimer...of sorts
As with all CAP activities your personal mileage (and experiences) may vary.  That being said either to the positive or the negative of HMRS or any activity your opinions should be based on your personal experience rather than the experience of others...
poor.....Recon sucks because people told me they had a horrible time and the instructors are dumb.
not so poor....Others in my have squadron have told me that Recon school sucks; they had a bad experience there

I would expect that senior members here would make the same analogy.....go experience it for your self, then spew your opinion (good or bad or somewhere in between) based on what you saw/did...not what others told you

I would be more than happy to answer any questions about either winter or summer courses (of at least things I have knowledge of....specific incidents I doidnt see I cant really say much about)

mk

Normally I would like to form my own opinion but I flat refuse to spend that much money to go to an activity that hazes cadets like that and then publishes it on the net for all to see with the cadet hazee named!

[FW]

Well then.  Go to Pawingcap.com/hawk

You (Cadet TSgt RD) can find everything you need to know.  What specifically shall we now discuss?  Are there unanswered questions you have about Hawk 2010. 

Here are questions I have about Hawk 2010;

1) Does every one have to eat Rabbit stew?
2) Is the Pink Web Belt allowed to be presented to Senior Members who are "less than perfect rangers"?
3) Are the Expert Rangers going to be partying all week like last year? 
4) Is the Cadet with asthma who never had any symptoms before going to be called weak during the march up the mountain when he has his first asthma attack? Like a certain Cadet last year who had to be taken to the local med center? (a neighboring Squadrons Cadet BTW)
5) Are pushups in the shower going to be part of training this year again?

Seriously.....all 5 items are issues that are now sitting at Maxwell. 

What other things does anyone need to know before attending??  I am a wealth of knowledge, or I can direct you to the General Counsel at Maxwell should you have other questions. 

I hope the answers will be such that the school will continue.  We had similar situations about 9 years ago after some serious investigations found many problems with the curriclulim and, attitude of the instructors and staff.   NHQ, at the time, planned on closing it.  After some major revisions, the school remained open and, all went smoothly.  I would hope the "old days" are not back as, we've spent some major cash on improvements to the site.  If the school closes, maybe we can recoup the money by developing the site for "time shares or vacation rentals" 

[arajca]

I would expect that senior members here would make the same analogy.....go experience it for your self, then spew your opinion (good or bad or somewhere in between) based on what you saw/did...not what others told you

I base my opinion of an activity on either attending a particular activity or seeing the results of an activity. My experience with the few hawks rangers I have met has been less than positive. I have no reason to go there just to form an opinion. For those who say not all hawk rangers are bad actors, remember, we have to go with what WE see, not what you say.

That being said, if a cadet or senior wants to go, fine. If they ask my opinion about, I'll give it to them. If they come back with a big head, there are ways to deflate the ego. Blue Beret has a similar image issue, but they're starting to get it under control.

[sarmed1]

I would like to think that if the NHQ staff including the National Legal officer did not identify the use of the pink belt to signify the squadron that did the poorest on inspections as hazing that it must not be (I mean maybe they kept him distracted from the mid day formation for the days he was there).... but I suppose that could be an interpretation one could get from that

But then we should avoid the use of any term that may signal out individuals or groups of individuals that dont succeed at the tasks we give them.... so use of the word failed would be out.....nor should we list anyone's rank or order of selection choices for NCSA's as it may make them feel inferior, and I suppose identifying honor cadet, or honor squadron would equally make someone feel "less than adequate" and well that whole cadet competetion thing is right out the window...everyone who came is a winner (because obviously if you arent the winner...you are the looser)

I'll bite that the push-up thing in the shower if substantiated, is hazing.....fairly clear cut there (its hard to identify that as a physical training evolution)

Ego deflation should occur to anyone in CAP...we may be cool but we arent that cool....I dont care if its HMRS, Blue Beret or encampment staff....I have seen it from just about any activity even whithin just a squadron organizations....

mk

[lordmonar]

Well like most things.....it is usually the exceptions that stand out in most people's minds.

I would probably say that most HMRS grads are just normal CAP members who do their job well and move on.

We always get one or two people who come back with an "all that" attitude....and not just from HMRS....I've seen it from encampment as well.

Ego issues are easy to handle....you ignore them.  That is the meanest, dirtiest thing you can do to someone with and Ego problem.  You don't ask them to come out to help, you don't task them to be instructors, you don't let them wear their extra bling (unit CC's still retain the right to dictate head gear and NCSA patchs).

Having said all that......I like the idea of HMRS and will attend one of these days.

[arajca]

The idea may be good, but the execution is flawed.

[davidsinn]

I would like to think that if the NHQ staff including the National Legal officer did not identify the use of the pink belt to signify the squadron that did the poorest on inspections as hazing that it must not be (I mean maybe they kept him distracted from the mid day formation for the days he was there).... but I suppose that could be an interpretation one could get from that

But then we should avoid the use of any term that may signal out individuals or groups of individuals that dont succeed at the tasks we give them.... so use of the word failed would be out.....nor should we list anyone's rank or order of selection choices for NCSA's as it may make them feel inferior, and I suppose identifying honor cadet, or honor squadron would equally make someone feel "less than adequate" and well that whole cadet competetion thing is right out the window...everyone who came is a winner (because obviously if you arent the winner...you are the looser)

I'll bite that the push-up thing in the shower if substantiated, is hazing.....fairly clear cut there (its hard to identify that as a physical training evolution)

Ego deflation should occur to anyone in CAP...we may be cool but we arent that cool....I dont care if its HMRS, Blue Beret or encampment staff....I have seen it from just about any activity even whithin just a squadron organizations....

mk

52-10

1c. Hazing. Hazing is defined as any conduct wherebysomeone causes another to suffer or to be exposed to any activity thatis cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.Actual or implied consent to acts of hazing does not eliminate theculpability of the perpetrator. Examples of hazing include usingexercise as punishment or assigning remedial training that does not fitthe deficiency (such as making a cadet run laps for having poorlyshined shoes). Hazing, as defined in this policy, is considered a formof physical abuse and the reporting procedures for physical abuse mustbe followed.

A pink belt seems demeaning and humiliating to me. Especially if it makes the cadet cry and then they post his picture on the internet, name him and point out that he's crying because he has to wear it.

Your middle paragraph is not what I'm wanting. I hate the idea of everybody gets a trophy and crap like that. We are not equal. That's life. I get it. We do not need to point and laugh at the underdog though. I was the target of hazing my whole life and it will be a cold day in hell before it's allowed to happen in front of me. I would have no problem calling out a senior officer that allows crap like that to happen.

[sarmed1]

A pink belt seems demeaning and humiliating to me. Especially if it makes the cadet cry and then they post his picture on the internet, name him and point out that he's crying because he has to wear it.

If you could point me to that particular posting, I was not aware of it.....PM would be fine or here doesnt matter to me.

......so back to the topic (I think hazing is a separate thread

I have to agree there are parts of the HMRS program that could use improvement.  For the end user its all about what you are looking to get out of the program:

If you are looking for "cool uniform bling" then you are in luck..no shortage there...course out of the Wing you are likely to feel the wrath.....
If you are looking to say you are a RANGER...because Army Rangers are cool...well you are misguided, and will likely feel the wrath...in or out of the PAWG
If you are looking for an exercises in teamwork and leadership...it has that
If you are looking to challenge yourself physically or mentally, well it kind of has that (pretty much dont say I quit and you're pretty much going to finish...even if they have to drag you thru) I would recommend PJOC if thats your thing
If you are looking to learn outdoor skills, spend time in the woods, it definitely has that (there is nothing that flushes....)
If you are looking for CAP GSAR training...it does have that....but I would go with NGSAR or you own local/Wing program; what it does cover are geared to what happens in PAWG
If you are looking for uniques SAR skills it has that.....rope/steep terrain rescue, medical operations and wilderness survival

details.......more than happy to discuss
mk

[Spike]

A pink belt seems demeaning and humiliating to me. Especially if it makes the cadet cry and then they post his picture on the internet, name him and point out that he's crying because he has to wear it.

If you could point me to that particular posting, I was not aware of it.....PM would be fine or here doesn't matter to me.

Look at the Hawk site and click on the newsletters for each day from last year's Hawk.  I believe it is second or third day.  Better do it quick, before PA WING takes them down though!

[Gunner C]

A pink belt seems demeaning and humiliating to me. Especially if it makes the cadet cry and then they post his picture on the internet, name him and point out that he's crying because he has to wear it.

If you could point me to that particular posting, I was not aware of it.....PM would be fine or here doesn't matter to me.

Look at the Hawk site and click on the newsletters for each day from last year's Hawk.  I believe it is second or third day.  Better do it quick, before PA WING takes them down though!

Looks like they beat us to it.  Won't load.

I did look at the other newsletters.  Frankly, I don't see anything that's particularly hard.  AAMOF, I see a bunch of stuff that's, well, chicken droppings.  White laces???  Really?  Photographing "gigs"?  Please.  I see a bunch of lard-butt SMs running around playing ranger.  Even the SMs who are there as instructors and students aren't in any semblance of a uniform.  Red bibs?  That went out years ago.  I don't even think the Army has those branch color bibs anymore (and the Army used to be crazy about that crap).

This thing appears to be a drain on resources.  Get rid of it and put more resources into NGSAR.  Much better.  More professional.

[davidsinn]

http://www.pawingcap.com/hawk/news/20070708-hawk-news.pdf

[Gunner C]

http://www.pawingcap.com/hawk/news/20070708-hawk-news.pdf

Ah, there it is.  I'm not sure that the cadet is crying, but the whole thing is dumb IMO.

[NCRblues]

That cadet may or may not be crying, but just by making us think he could be is wrong. That little article smells of sarcasm, in a horrible way to cover up a shameful item at this event. No PAO in the world should ever place a picture of a cadet possibly crying on a public newsletter. That is wrong, just plain wrong.
I have a couple of questions for those that have attended.
1.   What are the ascots for? I thought the pistol belts marked the staff. So now you have ranger tabs, ascots, boot laces AND pistol belts?
2.   In several of the pictures, cadets can be seen carrying around neck bracers.  Are we training the cadets to place these immobilization units on injured personnel?

[lordmonar]

2.   In several of the pictures, cadets can be seen carrying around neck bracers.  Are we training the cadets to place these immobilization units on injured personnel?

If we are....is there something wrong with that?  IMHO that is something we do need to teach our ground teams.

[NCRblues]

At least in this state, you have to have an EMT license to use one of them, so I am not against this being taught, but a disclaimer needs to be used, and I was wondering if one was given.

[fyrfitrmedic]

At least in this state, you have to have an EMT license to use one of them, so I am not against this being taught, but a disclaimer needs to be used, and I was wondering if one was given.

Which state? I'd be interested in reading the state statutes/regulations/scope of practice regarding the use of c-collars.

[cap235629]

spinal immobilization is an EMT-B level skill here as well. Not part of the training in any DOT first responder class.  It was the same when I was in Massachusetts as well.

NREMT-I with advanced protocols for trauma and cardiac emergencies.....