I just withdrew from Encampment.

[Daniel]

I rode six hours to an encampment where I was supposed to be the C/XO. A position I would have rode 12 hours for. However on arrival I was told that I was being "Reassigned" (demoted) to AV/Medical, because the cadet commander wanted to have her friend a phase IV who just graduated NSCA with her. Apparently he was slotted to be cadet commander and declined after being chosen for an NCSA, but on the way back he decided he wanted to go and apparently his mommy wouldn't let him stay if he didn't have a good position. He put in his CAPF31/check the day we arrived at the camp

found it odd when the cadet commander instead of asking me to make an excel sheet would ask to use my laptop. She made several sheets of in-processing and inspection worksheets while I sat around and did nothing over the 24 hours I was there with one exception, after nagging about the way they were holding my laptop, when they needed it moved from the barracks (where they did most of the work) to wing HQ (to print) they would ask me to carry it. I started to feel that I could leave as long as I left my laptop behind then, and even more so once thier version of AV would be to have everyone give their powerpoints to me so I could set them up on my laptop.

It seemed like the senior staff didn't have the time of day to listen to the issue until after it would be impossible to get a ride home.
Aside from a refund which "I would let my people get with his people on", I asked to shake each of their hands and be on my way.

Heres the real question is this situation universally unacceptable or in some wings is this acceptable?

Can you just bring in staff and move staff down the chain like that?

[JayT]

That's disgusting they did that to you. Shame on them!

[Eclipse]

Heres the real question is this situation universally unacceptable or in some wings is this acceptable?

Not universally.  Most encampments treat their cadet staff with a lot more weight and respect, and I am somewhat surprised that a position like Cadet XO didn't have a lot more work and involvement prior to the activity, let alone once you got there.

We only have a piece of the story, but it sounds, from 50K feet, like either the senior staff of this activity are "lights-off", or there is more here than we know about.

C/Maj. is more grade-appropriate for C/XO, but that is something that should have been worked out during the application and appointment process, not day-of.  C/XO to "AV/Medical" (whatever that is), is a pretty long fall and not remotely similar duties.

Can you just bring in staff and move staff down the chain like that?

The short answer is "yes".

The much longer one is "Why?", and "Who thought this was a good idea?"
This looks and sounds like squandered member initiative and morale in favor of nepotism because of a disconnected senior staff, but again, we only have your side.

I and my staff have dealt with similar issues to this in the past - cadets who don't understand that "life is choice" and "you can't do everything", so they apply all over the place and then try to do musical chairs with activities and positions. Our stance has nearly always been "the deadline passed, you did not apply, so we made our choice from the applicant pool...", or "you chose to apply for "x" because you thought you had a better deal in your pocket, which fell through...".

On a rare occasion we solicited outside when we had to, but again, this is something which is supposed to happen months before the activity, with changes only made last-minute due to cadets who drop-out, have disciplinary issues, or who clearly are unsuitable for the position, which does not appear to be the case in this instance.

My suggestion would be to let some time pass and discuss this with your commander, who should then find out exactly what the deal was through the
chain.  It won't change your situation, but might prevent it from happening in the future, assuming there wasn't a justifiable reason behind the action.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Honestly, if someone was slotted for that particular job, and unless they were grossly incapable of performing the job, there should be NO reason for this. If a cadet decided to do COS instead of Encampment, that was their choice. There are many, MANY, events that cadets can participate in, and it's their responsibility to decide. Pulling something like this on someone AFTER they made the drive down is just poor form.

[Daniel]

Not universally.  Most encampments treat their cadet staff with a lot more weight and respect, and I am somewhat surprised that a position like Cadet XO didn't have a lot more work and involvement prior to the activity, let alone once you got there

I did do a lot of work, coordinating the "executive staff" then when I got there they took the position from me before I could do crap.

[Eclipse]

I just re-read.

The Cadet Commander was appointed on the first day of the activity after he was going to blow it off for COS?

If true, this is ridiculous.  We have 2-3 months of prep work for our Cadet Commanders, assuming they weren't part of the planning over the Fall
from the year previous.

This may also cross into the discussion of the C/CC's responsibilities.  We have seniors do hots and cots, and leave the "experience" to the cadet executive
staff (with significant guidance and oversight of the Commandant).  We make it clear that "This year is yours.  Make it your own and fix the things you don't like."  If they have to, the seniors can step in last minute and make it happen, but that rarely is needed (though we do need to adjust expectations sometimes for cadets being used to hand-holding and spoon-feeding).

I know some encampments basically hand a script to the staff and say "stand there", which we have never thought was the right way to do it.
I can't imagine how someone not involved in the planning process could possibly be an effective leader for an activity of this scale unless the
whole thing is "baked" by the seniors in advance with little input from the cadet staff.

[Daniel]

I just re-read.

The Cadet Commander was appointed on the first day of the activity after he was going to blow it off for COS?

If true, this is ridiculous.  We have 2-3 months of prep work for our Cadet Commanders, assuming they weren't part of the planning over the Fall
from the year previous.

This may also cross into the discussion of the C/CC's responsibilities.  We have seniors do hots and cots, and leave the "experience" to the cadet executive
staff (with significant guidance and oversight of the Commandant).  We make it clear that "This year is yours.  Make it your own and fix the things you don't like."  If they have to, the seniors can step in last minute and make it happen, but that rarely is needed (though we do need to adjust expectations sometimes for cadets being used to hand-holding and spoon-feeding).

I know some encampments basically hand a script to the staff and say "stand there", which we have never thought was the right way to do it.
I can't imagine how someone not involved in the planning process could possibly be an effective leader for an activity of this scale unless the
whole thing is "baked" by the seniors in advance with little input from the cadet staff.

Umm.. no, The cadet commander replaced me on the first day. She was chosen probably after the cadet that replaced me as XO dropped for COS. Although I ironically the Cadet commander did do COS with this gentlemen.

[Al Sayre]

This sounds like a conversation you need to have with your Squadron/CC and your Wing DCP (I am assuming that this was your wing's encampment, and all of the players were from your wing).

[Daniel]

This sounds like a conversation you need to have with your Squadron/CC and your Wing DCP (I am assuming that this was your wing's encampment, and all of the players were from your wing).

I have, and it was absolutely not my wing I was a guest at another wing.

[Al Sayre]

If the C/CC and C/XO that replaced you were from that wing, there probably isn't much that can be done.  While it wasn't handled very well, it was their sandbox, and their DCP & Encampment/CC get to make their rules...

[Daniel]

If the C/CC and C/XO that replaced you were from that wing, there probably isn't much that can be done.  While it wasn't handled very well, it was their sandbox, and their DCP & Encampment/CC get to make their rules...

Yup and as long as I get my money back. I could care less. I'm not going back to that wing... um ever.

[lordmonar]

So.

You are telling me....you don't care a whit about putting on a good quality product for your cadets.....all you care about is haveing a job title.

Sorry Daniel.....I know you feel hurt....but I'm not buying into it.

Leadership is about getting the job done and you quit because they were treating you bad.  Welcome to life.

[Daniel]

So.

You are telling me....you don't care a whit about putting on a good quality product for your cadets.....all you care about is haveing a job title.

Sorry Daniel.....I know you feel hurt....but I'm not buying into it.

Leadership is about getting the job done and you quit because they were treating you bad.  Welcome to life.

Not exactly, I quit because they wounldn't let me get the job done. I quit because I was sidelined.

Now I didn't post this because I wanted to put any wing out. I wanted to see one thing, which is if the changes in slotting of staff is a cardinal sin everywhere and if I was putting too much empasis on the whole thing.

[N Harmon]

As CAP members we accept that we must be flexible in our assignments and that they are always "subject to the needs of the mission/activity".  If I arrive at a mission as the only qualified X, and a X is really needed, then it is salute and execute time. Semper gumby, and all of that.

Except that does not seem to be the case here.  Here you had a person arrive prepared to do a job and was replaced by another not so prepared, because the later was a friend of the commander. I believe I would be pretty angry too.

[jimmydeanno]

There is a significant difference in being hired to be a C/XO for an encampment and being bumped to Audio Visual cadet, and showing up and being asked if you can be Deputy Commander instead.  To have a cadet travel from another wing, under the assumption they are going to fill a specific role only to tell them, without notice, that they aren't needed is rude and violates our core value of respect.

Checking into a mission base and being assigned as a CUL instead of GBD isn't a fair comparison.  Imagine being asked to be a squadron commander, then the first day you show up to do the job there is someone else standing in front of the formation.

[ZigZag911]

The cadet CC or Commandant of Cadets should have had the integrity to call you before you left home (ideally several days before, so you could consider the situation), explained the situation, and let you decide whether to participate under these circumstances.

Even then, it's a lousy thing to do to somebody, anybody, at the last minute...perhaps there is more to this story, but even so, it could have been handled better.

For instance, the C/Major who came aboard at the last minute could have been give "AV/Medical", or some other support or training role...perhaps Stan/eval?

[lordmonar]

There is a significant difference in being hired to be a C/XO for an encampment and being bumped to Audio Visual cadet, and showing up and being asked if you can be Deputy Commander instead.  To have a cadet travel from another wing, under the assumption they are going to fill a specific role only to tell them, without notice, that they aren't needed is rude and violates our core value of respect.

Checking into a mission base and being assigned as a CUL instead of GBD isn't a fair comparison.  Imagine being asked to be a squadron commander, then the first day you show up to do the job there is someone else standing in front of the formation.

How so?

The C/Lt was hired because the C/Maj was unavailable.  The C/Maj became avialible.....I don't see the problem.

Again...I can feel his pain.  It is not easy getting the rug pulled out from under you.  The leadership lesson is what followed.  Do you focus on the mission and get the job done....or do you get all hurt and go home.

He withdrew from encampment...........that means he feels his personal situation is more imporatant than the mission at hand.

Nope....not going to get on his side at all.

If he stuck it out......then maybe I would be "Dude...that sucks.....theose leaders are tools"......but in this case it is ....."He's a quiter".

[PHall]

There is a significant difference in being hired to be a C/XO for an encampment and being bumped to Audio Visual cadet, and showing up and being asked if you can be Deputy Commander instead.  To have a cadet travel from another wing, under the assumption they are going to fill a specific role only to tell them, without notice, that they aren't needed is rude and violates our core value of respect.

Checking into a mission base and being assigned as a CUL instead of GBD isn't a fair comparison.  Imagine being asked to be a squadron commander, then the first day you show up to do the job there is someone else standing in front of the formation.

How so?

The C/Lt was hired because the C/Maj was unavailable.  The C/Maj became avialible.....I don't see the problem.

Again...I can feel his pain.  It is not easy getting the rug pulled out from under you.  The leadership lesson is what followed.  Do you focus on the mission and get the job done....or do you get all hurt and go home.

He withdrew from encampment...........that means he feels his personal situation is more imporatant than the mission at hand.

Nope....not going to get on his side at all.

If he stuck it out......then maybe I would be "Dude...that sucks.....theose leaders are tools"......but in this case it is ....."He's a quiter".

The C/Lt did all of the prep work and the C/Maj can just waltz in and take his job. Sorry Pat, that's BS and you know it.
The C/Maj made his choice, he went to COS. So why should he get both "good deals" and the C/Lt gets the shaft?

[lordmonar]

A job is the shaft?

That's my point....no one got shafted.

Yes he is disappointed.  Yes Medical is not as "good" as XO.  Yes the Lt did all the prep work.

But let's supposes for a second....just one second......that Dan L's story is not the whole story.

Let's suppose for a second....that Dan L was originally slated for medical all along but they just did not have anyone to fill the position.  Then at the last minute a round peg arrived to fill the round hole.

Fair?  No.....but what in life is fair.

PHall we both know that in the real military this happens all the time.  Some poor Lt or SSgt is given a task and works his butt off...then at the 90% mark a Major or MSgt comes in "takes over" and gets all the kudos.

It sucks...I'm not saying it does not suck.....what I am saying is that it is life....and real leaders push on.  They take what ever job is given and move on.   They don't quit.

Dan L left encampment.....the medical job is empty because he is not doing that job.....leadership fail.

Was the C/CC and the encampment comandant tools for the way they pulled the rug from under his feet?  Sure thing.....that's life.  We will have have to work for tools one day......how you react to it.....tells me what sort of person you are.

[Daniel]

A job is the shaft?

That's my point....no one got shafted.

Yes he is disappointed.  Yes Medical is not as "good" as XO.  Yes the Lt did all the prep work.

But let's supposes for a second....just one second......that Dan L's story is not the whole story.

Let's suppose for a second....that Dan L was originally slated for medical all along but they just did not have anyone to fill the position.  Then at the last minute a round peg arrived to fill the round hole.

Fair?  No.....but what in life is fair.

PHall we both know that in the real military this happens all the time.  Some poor Lt or SSgt is given a task and works his butt off...then at the 90% mark a Major or MSgt comes in "takes over" and gets all the kudos.

It sucks...I'm not saying it does not suck.....what I am saying is that it is life....and real leaders push on.  They take what ever job is given and move on.   They don't quit.

Dan L left encampment.....the medical job is empty because he is not doing that job.....leadership fail.

Was the C/CC and the encampment comandant tools for the way they pulled the rug from under his feet?  Sure thing.....that's life.  We will have have to work for tools one day......how you react to it.....tells me what sort of person you are.

That would be great but it wasn't like that.

1) I didn't get slated for medical, I was slated for XO from when I was offered to when I accepted.

[jeders]

First, that totally sucks dude.

That said, I have to kind of agree with Pat on this one, sometimes you have to work with/for/around tools all day every day. It's how you handle those situations that really shows your caliber. There's a quote, and I can't seem to remember it exactly right now, that goes something to the effect of, if all you have is a deck to swab, then swab it as if Davey Jones himself were after you. In other words, if the only thing that you're being utilized for is a walking laptop stand, then be the best walking laptop stand that has ever existed and someone will notice you.

Trust me, this is an important lesson to learn and if you learn it now you will blow everyone away later in life.

[lordmonar]

A job is the shaft?

That's my point....no one got shafted.

Yes he is disappointed.  Yes Medical is not as "good" as XO.  Yes the Lt did all the prep work.

But let's supposes for a second....just one second......that Dan L's story is not the whole story.

Let's suppose for a second....that Dan L was originally slated for medical all along but they just did not have anyone to fill the position.  Then at the last minute a round peg arrived to fill the round hole.

Fair?  No.....but what in life is fair.

PHall we both know that in the real military this happens all the time.  Some poor Lt or SSgt is given a task and works his butt off...then at the 90% mark a Major or MSgt comes in "takes over" and gets all the kudos.

It sucks...I'm not saying it does not suck.....what I am saying is that it is life....and real leaders push on.  They take what ever job is given and move on.   They don't quit.

Dan L left encampment.....the medical job is empty because he is not doing that job.....leadership fail.

Was the C/CC and the encampment comandant tools for the way they pulled the rug from under his feet?  Sure thing.....that's life.  We will have have to work for tools one day......how you react to it.....tells me what sort of person you are.

That would be great but it wasn't like that.

1) I didn't get slated for medical, I was slated for XO from when I was offered to when I accepted.

Maybe after they offered the XO job to someone else.

Either way it does not matter.

You got bumped....that sucks..Life's not fair....press on.  Get the mission done.........that's leadership.

[RiverAux]

There is absolutely no comparison to mission work here.  Keep in mind that encampment is an experience that the cadets are PAYING for and as such, they certainly have a right to get the sort of experience they expected when the check was written.  Sure, everyone needs to be a little flexible, but this goes way beyond acceptable (with the caveat that things happened as they were presented here). 

I think we can assume that in this case the cadet had been to one or more previous encampments and was only willing to take the time and pay good money to attend this one for the chance to take on such a prestigious slot where he could learn something new.  I'm sure he has already filled minor staff jobs at previous encampments so unless he just loves spending time at encampment, this would be a waste of time.  Yeah, the encampment staff is primarily there to make sure the basics get what they need out of the encampment, but if we didn't expect that the staff wouldn't get something out of it personally, they wouldn't be there.  We would just have senior members run everything. 

If we expect our cadets to learn anything it is up to us to demonstrate high quality leadership first.  And if we don't (as APPEARS to be the case here), just why should we expect the cadet to just suck it up and waste a week of their life? 

If I pay good money to join CAP to get a certain experience and I don't get it, are you going to call me a quitter for not-renewing?  Obviously, for whatever reason my needs and CAP's didn't mesh and it only makes sense for us to part ways.  Same with doing a bait-and-switch on this cadet.

[Daniel]

There is absolutely no comparison to mission work here.  Keep in mind that encampment is an experience that the cadets are PAYING for and as such, they certainly have a right to get the sort of experience they expected when the check was written.  Sure, everyone needs to be a little flexible, but this goes way beyond acceptable (with the caveat that things happened as they were presented here). 

I think we can assume that in this case the cadet had been to one or more previous encampments and was only willing to take the time and pay good money to attend this one for the chance to take on such a prestigious slot where he could learn something new.  I'm sure he has already filled minor staff jobs at previous encampments so unless he just loves spending time at encampment, this would be a waste of time.  Yeah, the encampment staff is primarily there to make sure the basics get what they need out of the encampment, but if we didn't expect that the staff wouldn't get something out of it personally, they wouldn't be there.  We would just have senior members run everything. 

If we expect our cadets to learn anything it is up to us to demonstrate high quality leadership first.  And if we don't (as APPEARS to be the case here), just why should we expect the cadet to just suck it up and waste a week of their life?

I actually have been to an encampment as IT before.

This would have been my third

[Starlock]

But let's supposes for a second....just one second......that Dan L's story is not the whole story.

I've known Lt. L for in essence my entire CAP career. Dishonest is not a word I would use to describe to him at all.

At our home Wing encampment, I was slated for a flight sergeant position. Complications arose. I was taken out of the role and put in as Admin. Granted, it was for good reasoning. Nonetheless, I was STEAMED. I still held to the reassigned position.

Knowing the.. Reputation of the encampment that Lt. L was attending, I think that withdrawal would be preferred. What's the point of staffing an encampment if you're not able to do the job you were assigned?

[CAPC/officer125]

But let's supposes for a second....just one second......that Dan L's story is not the whole story.

...snip...

At our home Wing encampment, I was slated for a flight sergeant position. Complications arose. I was taken out of the role and put in as Admin. Granted, it was for good reasoning. Nonetheless, I was STEAMED. I still held to the reassigned position.

Knowing the.. Reputation of the encampment that Lt. L was attending, I think that withdrawal would be preferred. What's the point of staffing an encampment if you're not able to do the job you were assigned?

Emphasis mine.
It seems you were re-slotted before the activity, something that is quite common and still acceptable. It has happened to me twice (from 1st shirt to Flt/Sgt and from LogOIC to Sq/CC). From what I can tell, he was assigned the position of C/XO, did the prep work, showed up, and then was re-slotted. Two completely different situations
In the Lt's situation I would be mad too. Especially at my rank and with the experience I have. However, we are talking about him not me. The proper thing (as stated by a few others) for the C/CC or Commandant or whoever to do would have been to call him and tell him before he arrived. As he pointed out, he was an out-of-state cadet and that is just common and decent courtesy.

[Starlock]

It seems you were re-slotted before the activity, something that is quite common and still acceptable. It has happened to me twice (from 1st shirt to Flt/Sgt and from LogOIC to Sq/CC)

Very true and indeed valid, Ma'am. It was prior to the activity, but the point I now realize I forgot to convey is that there's nothing in the encampment more demoralizing than being switched out for a (perhaps) less desirable position after all the preparation you've put into letters, bettering yourself in all the leadership classes and having the pride of being able to say you've directly affected some ought 20 young person's lives. You know? Lt. L's original position would have put him in an even larger setting to give cadets a kick start, and frankly, going from C/XO to an A/V technician is like being a Chief and being sent back to SrA.

[RiverAux]

Without knowing where this encampment was, I've got to say that the cadet program in that wing has got to be pretty weak if they had to go to another wing and ask a 1st Lt. to take the XO position in the first place.  I could understand if he was a Lt. Col. or Maj, but to go that deep into the bench in another wing shows a serious lack of home-grown talent. 

[Starlock]

Without knowing where this encampment was, I've got to say that the cadet program in that wing has got to be pretty weak if they had to go to another wing and ask a 1st Lt. to take the XO position in the first place.  I could understand if he was a Lt. Col. or Maj, but to go that deep into the bench in another wing shows a serious lack of home-grown talent.

He applied, they didn't ask.

[RiverAux]

Without knowing where this encampment was, I've got to say that the cadet program in that wing has got to be pretty weak if they had to go to another wing and ask a 1st Lt. to take the XO position in the first place.  I could understand if he was a Lt. Col. or Maj, but to go that deep into the bench in another wing shows a serious lack of home-grown talent.

He applied, they didn't ask.

People apply for jobs and if they are lucky they are then offered (i.e., "asked") the position.  Wasn't suggesting that they went headhunting for a 1st Lt., but the fact that a 1st Lt. was even considered for such a position means that they have a problem. 

[Tim Medeiros]

It seems you were re-slotted before the activity, something that is quite common and still acceptable. It has happened to me twice (from 1st shirt to Flt/Sgt and from LogOIC to Sq/CC)

Very true and indeed valid, Ma'am. It was prior to the activity, but the point I now realize I forgot to convey is that there's nothing in the encampment more demoralizing than being switched out for a (perhaps) less desirable position after all the preparation you've put into letters, bettering yourself in all the leadership classes and having the pride of being able to say you've directly affected some ought 20 young person's lives. You know? Lt. L's original position would have put him in an even larger setting to give cadets a kick start, and frankly, going from C/XO to an A/V technician is like being a Chief and being sent back to SrA.

Sure there is, being told after all that prep and such that "Oh, we don't need you anymore we have someone else coming"  At least the offer of a consolation was given.  Encampment credit still would have been given.  It shows up in your eServices record and on your ribbon rack all the same.  Who knows, if C/Maj johnny come lately ended up doing worse than expected, C/1st Lt Daniel L likely would have been the next viable candidate, but the choice was made to leave.


Do the circumstances inhale with great velocity?  yes, would I have made the same choice? heck no.  I would have stuck it out, a ribbon is a ribbon and a SQL entry is a SQL entry.  Plus, DCPs talk, they talk about major functions like encampment and what goes on with them, to include who leaves early because of certain reasons and leaves the mission at hand (ie the encampment) undermanned, they talk with multitudes of other DCPs and CP personnel.

[ol'fido]

...who leaves early because of certain reasons and leaves the mission at hand(ie the encampment) undermanned....

He was dropped from c/XO to the AV guy for the "medical" flight. I'm sorry but unless the AV/Medical is a lot more high speed position than I can imagine, it sounds like it would have had to work a bit to get up to "Miss Congeniality" status. Not exactly leaving the mission undermanned. Maybe all the PLO slots were taken already. PLO? You know...Permanent Latrine Orderly. (Somebody got a "No Time For Sergeants" picture.)

Our cadets don't join to get dumped on and told to "suck it up". They join to have a good time and learn something. Granted, you can't eliminate the suck factor entirely. Into everyone's life a little "suck" must fall. Also, we only know Daniel's side of this story. But from the story as presented, I would have left too. Although, I would make sure that I had a long talk with the c/CC, COC, and CC about why I was leaving. You can't treat cadets in discourteous and unprofessional manner for very long and expect them to "suck it up" unless your goal is to NOT have a cadet program.

[phoenix212]

Having been in command of training activities before, I can understand having to shuffle people around. It is near impossible to make everyone happy. If a staff position becomes open it has to be filled. It is not desirable to put a C/Maj in medical/av, and it isn't to put the current XO in either. That being said when a C/Maj that has been to COS, whose leadership has been proven to the CC and is a higher grade applies, it is acceptable to assume that he will be able to accomplish the job with proficiency. You were likely an untested out of state C/Lt and got the short stick. Life isn't fair. I just got back from an encampment where I was a squadron commander, and the DC over me was a C/Capt. I still made the best of it and had a blast. Who knows, they may have attempted to contact you, but in real life things don't always go as planned.

[ol'fido]

The staff position wasn't open. It had been filled by Daniel. Just because someone of higher rank decided to show up after the staff positions had been assigned doesn't mean that they should expect to waltz right into a position based on that rank. The c/Major's leadership may have been proven by going to COS but I would have serious doubts about the c/CC's leadership after a stunt like that. I would also be questioning the leadership of the Commandant and the Encampment CC for allowing her to make such a move without cause on Daniel's part.

[N Harmon]

The cadet did not quit. He was removed from his position and offered another that was made up on the spot for him. It was his choice whether to accept it.

For me, spending the whole first day of the encampment not being able to contribute anything is enough to convince me not to accept the position. And tolerating people wasting your time is not leadership.

[Eclipse]

Having been in command of training activities before, I can understand having to shuffle people around. It is near impossible to make everyone happy. If a staff position becomes open it has to be filled. It is not desirable to put a C/Maj in medical/av, and it isn't to put the current XO in either. That being said when a C/Maj that has been to COS, whose leadership has been proven to the CC and is a higher grade applies, it is acceptable to assume that he will be able to accomplish the job with proficiency. You were likely an untested out of state C/Lt and got the short stick. Life isn't fair. I just got back from an encampment where I was a squadron commander, and the DC over me was a C/Capt. I still made the best of it and had a blast. Who knows, they may have attempted to contact you, but in real life things don't always go as planned.

Untested and out of state is irrelevant, he applied timely and was appointed. Another cadet who chose a different activity was rewarded for
being unable to make a choice by not needing to make a choice.

I am a charter member of the CAP "Life Isn't Fair Committee", however that doesn't apply here as clearly last minute exceptions to procedure were
made at the last minute to accommodate one cadet to the detriment of another.

Any heat that comes the way of the seniors on this encampment staff is probably deserved, though we all still reserve the "right of rest of the story".

Your case is not applicable either.  Squadron CC is not really an appropriate position for a triple-diamond, but you accepted that position knowing full well you would likely be the highest grade cadet on the list, however while a big factor in consideration, once appointed, grade doesn't serve much purpose at encampments beyond basic courtesies.

For me, spending the whole first day of the encampment not being able to contribute anything is enough to convince me not to accept the position. And tolerating people wasting your time is not leadership.

Agree 100%.  For some reason there seems to be an idea that cadets deserve less respect than seniors in situations like this, while at the same time we are trying to teach them to make good decisions and longer term plans than "after this show".

How many seniors would stick around for SAREx if they left the house expecting to be the GBD, OSC, or even mission pilot, having participated in planning sessions and other prep work, only to be told to sit in the general assignment pool because "a Major we know better decided to show up at the last minute".

[EMT-83]

. . . It is not desirable to put a C/Maj in medical/av . . .

Why not?

[Daniel]

You were likely an untested out of state C/Lt and got the short stick.

Thats an unfair assessment. I have 2 encampments under my belt and single-handedly planned unit involvement with a local airshow which was like a 3 day long event. I think I was tested.

[FW]

Daniel, I see you are still working hard to get your Earhart.  Good for you.  It seems your recent experience has not deterred you from continuing in the program.  However, my question is; what have you learned from this?  I can assure you; it won't be the last time someone will pull the rug out from under you.  How will you deal with the situation next time?  There will be a next time...

As others have said; life isn't fair.  It is a hard lesson to learn.  However, in learning it, you do become stronger.  The position you were subsequently assigned sounded like a "make work" job to keep you at encampment.  If all you were to do was sit for a week while your laptop got all the attention. leaving may have been the best thing to do.  I'm not one for doing nothing and, don't expect anyone to waste their time either. 

Our Core values are more than just "respect".  They are also the ideals of volunteer service, integrity and, excellence in all we do. We have an obligation as senior members to instill these value in our cadets and, in this case, the job wasn't done. 

Now, Daniel, you have a choice.  Let the experience fester or, learn a lesson, move on and, be better for it.

[MSG Mac]

The problem seems to be a lack of communication, in not informing the Cadet Lieutenant that his position was changed in time for him to make an informed decision about accepting the AV position (What does an AV Medical Officer do anyways). I hope you communicated with the DCP of the applicable Wing your concerns about the lack of communications and the assignment of someone to your presumed position who hadn't even applied for a staff position, prior to day 1.

[jimmydeanno]

The problem seems to be a lack of communication, in not informing the Cadet Lieutenant that his position was changed in time for him to make an informed decision about accepting the AV position (What does an AV Medical Officer do anyways). I hope you communicated with the DCP of the applicable Wing your concerns about the lack of communications and the assignment of someone to your presumed position who hadn't even applied for a staff position, prior to day 1.

AV = Make sure the projectors and such are setup and running for presentations.

Medical = Distribute bandaids and put moleskin on blisters.

[ZigZag911]

I think some of you folks are being very unfair to this cadet...it would be one thing if he were asked to accept a lesser position that actually needed to be done, but something that certainly sounds, as one poster characterized it, as if it were invented on the spur of the moment?  That's ridiculous!

Put yourselves in his position, as CAP members...not retired USAF, or in your civilian careers, but as CAP seniors...you give up vacation time to assist in the CAP encampment, plan and work for months to prepare...then get 'ranked' out of your post, and are offered a 'consolation prize' of some busywork, button sorting, mess kit counting silliness???

This isn't a question of supporting the mission, it's a question of parochialism ("after all, he's not from OUR wing!") and cronyism.

Somebody on that wing or encampment staff ought to get reprimanded, at the very least, about this.

[lordmonar]

I don't think anyone is saying he did not get a raw deal.

It sucks....getting sent to the basement because a freind of someone gets the good job.

But that is in fact life.

If we take out the "he was her friend" factor......there is still an argument that the C/maj was better fit for the XO position.

He is known by the wing.
They wanted him for the CC position but he declined.
The situation changed and he became available.

Who would not want their "A" team in the top positions?

Was it unfair?  Yep.  Did they do him wrong?  Yep.  Are the AV and Medical "non-critical" jobs?  Sure.....but they are jobs.  Staff work is the bread and butter of any organisation.  Doing time there would still have been a valuable learning experince for the cadet. 

But the cadet did not see it that way.  He got advice from his leadership and decided to quit.

Bad situation, bad advice, bad decision?  Who knows.

Bottom line.....the AV/Medical jobs had to be done by someone else and the cadet lost out on a leadership experince.

[Eclipse]

If we take out the "he was her friend" factor......there is still an argument that the C/maj was better fit for the XO position.

He is known by the wing.
They wanted him for the CC position but he declined.
The situation changed and he became available.

Who would not want their "A" team in the top positions?

Yes.  However when the "A" team decides to do "other", you pick form the pool who applied properly and saw the encampment
as their priority.

This is teaching all the wrong lessons.

This taught all involved that "who you know" is the way to get things done, regardless of process or procedure.

[davidsinn]

If we take out the "he was her friend" factor......there is still an argument that the C/maj was better fit for the XO position.

I disagree there. The C/Maj couldn't be bothered to follow the proper process and only got in because the rules were changed for him. He was not the proper one for the job.

[phoenix212]

You were likely an untested out of state C/Lt and got the short stick.

Thats an unfair assessment. I have 2 encampments under my belt and single-handedly planned unit involvement with a local airshow which was like a 3 day long event. I think I was tested.

True, though there is a lot that can be said for knowing someones capabilities. It should not have been on as short a notice as it was though. I have had to make day of adjustments before, but I try and talk to the cadet about it first, and usually it is a higher position then they had been holding.

Honestly, I am just trying to point out possible reasoning by the CC, either way they should have done a more thorough job getting their ducks in a row before making any staff changes. You got shafted yes, but in the end it is only a week, and it is a good test of leadership when you do a job that you don't want to do, to the best of you ability.

[Eclipse]

Another question I have is who made these changes?

The senior staff or cadet staff?  This is not an authority I granted to my cadets for this exact reason.

[cap235629]

How many seniors would stick around for SAREx if they left the house expecting to be the GBD, OSC, or even mission pilot, having participated in planning sessions and other prep work, only to be told to sit in the general assignment pool because "a Major we know better decided to show up at the last minute".

Happens all the time.  If you travel 2 hours to get to mission base it is kind of hard to just turn around and go home.

[lordmonar]

If we take out the "he was her friend" factor......there is still an argument that the C/maj was better fit for the XO position.

He is known by the wing.
They wanted him for the CC position but he declined.
The situation changed and he became available.

Who would not want their "A" team in the top positions?

Yes.  However when the "A" team decides to do "other", you pick form the pool who applied properly and saw the encampment
as their priority.

This is teaching all the wrong lessons.

This taught all involved that "who you know" is the way to get things done, regardless of process or procedure.

Maybe.....or it is picking your strongest team.

How many times have you lamented that we have poor leadership becuase only the ones who volunteer are picked.  Now you say that the we have to ignore the round peg for the round whole because of the application process?

That doesn't sound right.

Again....yes it is a raw deal....yes it was "unfair".....but let's give them the benifit of the doubt that it was not just simple nepostims but an unusual situation that changed at the last minute.

No one gets to "buy" leadership positions.  How would you like it if your adminstation officer got bent out of shape because you brought in a new better qualified adminstrator because he was there first and the new guy did not do the "proper application process".

No...don't buy it...won't buy it.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Another question I have is who made these changes?

The senior staff or cadet staff?  This is not an authority I granted to my cadets for this exact reason.

But sir, cadets can pick the best allstar team evah!

[Eclipse]

How many seniors would stick around for SAREx if they left the house expecting to be the GBD, OSC, or even mission pilot, having participated in planning sessions and other prep work, only to be told to sit in the general assignment pool because "a Major we know better decided to show up at the last minute".

Happens all the time.  If you travel 2 hours to get to mission base it is kind of hard to just turn around and go home.

It shouldn't, especially if you are traveling that far.  Call, text, or email "we don't need you".  Better to turn around mid-trip than waste your whole
day.

I'm a team player, but there's also an issue of respect here, for people and their time.

[lordmonar]

How many seniors would stick around for SAREx if they left the house expecting to be the GBD, OSC, or even mission pilot, having participated in planning sessions and other prep work, only to be told to sit in the general assignment pool because "a Major we know better decided to show up at the last minute".

The good ones (which is my point) would see that mission is more imporatant than their personal desires.

A good leader (the IC) would do his best to hold down that sort of BS.....because keeping your people happy is part of good leadership....but the mission comes first...and if the "Major we know better" is better from the mission....then so be it.

[Майор Хаткевич]

How many seniors would stick around for SAREx if they left the house expecting to be the GBD, OSC, or even mission pilot, having participated in planning sessions and other prep work, only to be told to sit in the general assignment pool because "a Major we know better decided to show up at the last minute".

The good ones (which is my point) would see that mission is more imporatant than their personal desires.

A good leader (the IC) would do his best to hold down that sort of BS.....because keeping your people happy is part of good leadership....but the mission comes first...and if the "Major we know better" is better from the mission....then so be it.

That may be more applicable to SMs, but cadets are teenagers (for the most part). They are really just developing their ego, their sense of self, etc. I'll tell you what happens in most cases like this. The cadet decides X wing is dead to them. Cadet guides other cadets towards other encampments if they can help it. Cadets spread the word about it further out. And so on and so on.

If someone put in time to prepare for an event/help plan the event, they should be there to execute it. Otherwise, if there is an issue with their performance, they should have been removed in the planning stage, not the day of.

ESPECIALLY, when this replacement is a cadet that turned down the C/CC job to go to COS. (But was still able to attend both anyway?). Quite telling about their attitude.

[DakRadz]

ESPECIALLY, when this is a cadet that turned down the C/CC job to go to COS. (But was still able to attend both anyway?). Quite telling about their attitude.

When I see this particular part (it was actually Cadet Deputy Commander), the first thought I have is that the C/Maj who turned the job down thought they'd be too exhausted/tired/wouldn't feel like doing encampment after COS. Then decided he was up for it, so let's go, I still get a good position, right?!
YMMV

[N Harmon]

How many seniors would stick around for SAREx if they left the house expecting to be the GBD, OSC, or even mission pilot, having participated in planning sessions and other prep work, only to be told to sit in the general assignment pool because "a Major we know better decided to show up at the last minute".

The good ones (which is my point) would see that mission is more imporatant than their personal desires.

But even the good ones would go home after spending the whole first day of a SAREX doing nothing.

[Eclipse]

How many seniors would stick around for SAREx if they left the house expecting to be the GBD, OSC, or even mission pilot, having participated in planning sessions and other prep work, only to be told to sit in the general assignment pool because "a Major we know better decided to show up at the last minute".

The good ones (which is my point) would see that mission is more imporatant than their personal desires.

A good leader (the IC) would do his best to hold down that sort of BS.....because keeping your people happy is part of good leadership....but the mission comes first...and if the "Major we know better" is better from the mission....then so be it.

You can't go to "mission first" here unless you assume and assert that a C/Maj with poor planning skills, the inability to make a decision, and an overly involved mom is a better choice than a C/1st Lt. who followed the directions and was involved in planning the activity.  As presented this was a situation of nepotism and not making the C/Maj feel bad.  How is that "mission first"?

You can't go there on the senior side, either, because again, the scenario is nepotism, not skill set.  If we're talking about a 1-year senior who leveraged NESA and circumstance to get to GBD fast but has never been to a major exercise vs. a 5-year member with real-world mission experience who
has a work trip cancelled and can participate, that is a mission first scenario.

But that still leaves the common respect of calling someone from out of state and giving them the option of disengaging before they get there.  we're also not talking about Support flight or an alternate flt sgt here, we're talking big-4 cadet staff.  I know at my encampment that would have been a decision not made lightly, and replacing them would be even more of a weighty decision.

The issues of ego and standing that USAFAUX2004 makes are salient as well.  We may not care how an adult reacts, but we sure should be sensitive to
the potential ramifications this would have on a young person - someone who likely put a fair amount of effort and excited expectation into this activity and their role.

This is how we lose members, because we make and allow poor decisions which ultimately send the wrong message.  The proper response to the C/Maj (and his mom) was "You made your choice, but if you still want to come, we have support roles for you."  The precedent set will haunt them for years to come because it will get around that cadets don't need to make choices or follow process, they can just roll-in day-of and take over.

But even the good ones would go home after spending the whole first day of a SAREX doing nothing.

Yep, and as well they should.  It's one thing for a professional to be called up and sidelined, that's called "gravy" and is generally reflected somehow in their pay envelope at the end of the month.

The "pay" for volunteers is good work that respects their time and ability, meets their expectations, and is occasionally even fun.  Frankly I don't want people around who have so little to do that driving several hours to a mission base and watching paint dry seems like a good use of their time.

[lordmonar]

Ah.....but now you are assuming that Cadet Dan L's story is the only side of it.

I don't know any of these cadets from Adam....don't know the encampment either....neither do you.

So we speculate.

You say there is no scenario where the C/Maj is the right choice and I say there is.

Ergo the impass.

Either way this was a life experience that all adults face at one point or another.....and IMHO the cadet chose poorly.  I may be wrong....I have been before.....but there you go.

If a SM at a project I was running got upset about getting bumped, based on my assessment of what was best for the mission.....then that SM would not ever get picked up again.

The real military is the same way.  You quit an assignment/command/staff job.....and you will most likely never ever get offered one again.   So what lesson are we teaching?  Perseverance it face a adversity.  Sticking it out.  Taking your lumps and getting on with the mission.

Yes it sucks......I know it sucks....I know it is hard for young people to deal with the suck factor.   But by allowing the cadet to quit.....we teach him to take the easy way out. 

YMMV.

[DakRadz]

There is a fine line between "the easy way out" and "standing up for yourself and your worth"

The only person who truly knows which occurred is Lt Lunsford.

[Eclipse]

I agree it is speculation, and we don't know all sides, but I don't think you can compare this to a professional situation in which people are paid
to suck it up.

We all need to take one for the team, occasionally, but just as you may not call someone again who disagrees with being moved around, you may not have the option as they may find a better way to spend their time. 

[lordmonar]

I disagree.

Professionalism is professionalism whether you get paid or not.

Managing volunteers is an add challenge to CAP leaders (and I agree with you, screw over a volunteer too much and he walks).....but MISSION COMES FIRST that is what marks a professional vs a wannabe or fair weather member.

[Eclipse]

It's hard to argue "mission comes first", but I don't know that it applies in this case.

[Al Sayre]

Right or wrong the real issue is the fallout.  Because of the way it was handled first by the encampment staff and second by the cadet, chances are that this will affect cadets thinking about going to that wing's encampment for the next few years.  The incident is out there now, and you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.  How many cadets are going to say "Well, I heard Lt X got screwed when he went to YY Wing Encampment, so I won't attend there..." How many SQ/CC's and SQ/CDC's are going to steer cadets away from that encampment?  It's little incidents like this that hurt everyone.  Remember, perception is the reality of the perceiver...

[ol'fido]

I disagree.

Professionalism is professionalism whether you get paid or not.

Managing volunteers is an add challenge to CAP leaders (and I agree with you, screw over a volunteer too much and he walks).....but MISSION COMES FIRST that is what marks a professional vs a wannabe or fair weather member.

The mission  does come first. But what is the "mission" of the encampment? The cadets ARE the mission. Teaching them about leadership is at the core of encampment's purpose. If this story happened as Daniel said it did, you already have MISSION FAILURE.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Again, I don't think ANYONE is disputing removing a cadet if necessary. HOWEVER, this should have been done BEFORE the drive to another state, and during the planning stage for cause.

I can really see it (as presented to us), the C/CC and the C/Major know each other or get to know each other really well at COS. The C/CC, along with the C/Major and General Mom lay it into the Senior staff that C/Major is a GREAT fit for the job, and the SM staff tell the C/CC it's her call.

Either way, why wouldn't the C/1st Lt be told at arrival, not by the end of a whole day? I'm going to assume that the SM leadership knew, so why would they let it go unresolved and for that long? I'm sorry, but this whole situation stinks. Both, on the COS-Graduate C/CC and the SM staff.

[RiverAux]

While we certainly don't know all the details of why this switch was made, we know the following:
1.  1st Lt. was told he was going to have a certain position at an encampment. 
2.  He paid good money to the Wing so that he could come.
3.  After 1 & 2 the other Wing changed their mind about #1. 
4.  The other wing knew about this change in plenty of time to tell the 1st Lt. about it and to let him decide whether he still wanted to come. 

Nothing else matters.  This is a failure on the part of the other wing to let the cadet know about changed circumstances and the cadet was absolutely right to leave.

And if you want to keep comparing to a mission, would you really want to work on a mission at a base that was so incredibly disorganized, uncaring, and inefficient that despite knowing that they were going to use you in a position other than what you were told you were going to be doing, that they didn't make the courteous call to let you know about it so that you could decide whether it was still worth your time, vacation hours, and money to travel there to participate?  Those are people that I wouldn't trust to make sure the airplanes are safe and that probably won't make sure that they're not sending my plane into a grid with someone else already there. 

Keep in mind that we're not talking about a last minute change made for the good of the mission after things are underway.  There was plenty of time to resolve this ahead of time.  Granted, the Lt. would still get shaft, but it would have saved a lot of time and money. 

[lordmonar]

Been there done that.

Walked into the mission base with survival gear over my shoulder, flight bag in hand, wearing my poop suit......hey....we need you to GBD.

Did not like it....made may opinion known the the leadership.......did GBD.

MISSION.

The encampment failed the cadet by not properly informing him and giving him the option to pull out.....okay.....I'll buy that.
The cadet failed a life lesson that he is going to have to learn....or he will quickly find himself at the bottom of the pecking order.

Encampment staff pay for something to eat and a place to sleep.  They are there to work.  I SAY AGAIN....they are there to work.  Their mission is to get the encampment done.  That they also gain a valuable life and leadership laboratory is secondary to the primary function of the event....ENCAMPMENT.

Anyone not on board with this concept.....is barking up the wrong tree.  Too often I have seen encampments and other "leadership" training events held for the benefit of the staff and not the supposed recipients of the course.  It is one of my pet peeves.  Danial L....is probably a good cadet and got a real royal going over.  Sorry for that.  If he had asked me....I would have told him the same thing....the mission comes first...stick it out and learn from it.  Come home, bad mouth the encampment leadership and never ever trust them again.

He however got other advice and I feel has gotten some negative training. 

[Eclipse]

First, going from aircrew to GBD is not a step down or an insult to your abilities.  If anything you'd have a more significant role in the mission, hardly comparable to this situation.

Next, they did exactly what you are saying they shouldn't - they put the needs and personal desires of the staff cadets before the mission because of neopotism.

No way is a last minute day player more prepared for this specific activity than a cadet who was involved in the planning.

No, way.

You can argue he has more general experience because of his grade, but not better prep for the specific activity. The day before he wasn't even going.  He's lucky he knew where it was.

[lordmonar]

A.  A job is a job is a job.  If you are going to get involved in CAP if and only if you can be in charge or in the "good job"  Then maybe you need to look at your motivations.

b.  You assume that Lt Dan L's story is the whole story.  That the only reason they gave the job to the Major was because of personal desire and not maybe thinking that a C/Maj is better for the XO job then a C/Lt.

c.  You assume that C/ Dan L did any planning.  No where did he say that he did...no where did he ever mention any advanced planning.   Nor do we know how much (if any) the C/Maj may have been involved with the planning....even if he did not intend to attend the encampment.

I know that I am speculating just as much as you are.....but I will defend the leadership of the encampment....until I have have proof otherwise.

Anyway......I think I am becoming repetitive....so with that I am breaking off.  G'night

[Eclipse]

Reread his responses, he was involved in planning.

A job is not a job, especially when you are paying for the privelge of working.

[Hawk200]

I'm not seeing a "better fit" when it comes to someone that decided the day of that he wanted to go. The person that was selected, and then denied the opportunity for his own training is the one that lost out here.

He should have been notified that he was not needed. Hope he gets his check back. If another "superior" cadet gets to change his mind and attend, then the losing party here deserves his money back.

I don't see how someone that changes his mind is a "better fit for the mission." Then again, if someone really likes having a wishy washy type, I guess they're good. I wouldn't choose such a person. Seems like someone failed the gutcheck by not telling Mr. "Oh, I can make it now" that he was either gonna pass out Bandaids, or he could stay home. It's obvious nepotism, clear and simple. Moving someone up when they show up may have been an inconvenience for them. Moving them down sends a different and very clear message.

[N Harmon]

I thought we were only discussing the circumstances as they were presented here. I guess if you want to speculate you could simply say they were trying to drop a hint that the cadet was an outsider and wasn't welcome.

Either way, you can say "Mission" until you're blue in the face, but it has nothing to do with leaving a job that involves you doing nothing...

"Well Lieutenant, I know you were supposed to be on an aircrew this mission, but Major Bob just became available. We don't really have a job for you...I guess we could use someone to man the parking lot and show people where the restrooms are."

"Well sir, I do need to complete my requirements for aircrew, but okay, you can count on me."

"Oh and Lieutenant, can you let Major Bob over there use your headset? He did not bring one."

"Uh, sure. Here you go sir."

[skip to the end of the day]

"Sir, I manned that parking lot all day today and not a single person asked where the restrooms were. Did you know there was a big sign that said where the restrooms are? Do you think maybe I can train for aircrew tomorrow?"

"Well Lieutenant, we have a full schedule for tomorrow. I am not sure if we have a position available for you. The best I can do is put you in charge of the parking lot again."

"No thank you sir, I think I will sign out and go home."

(to the AOBD) "I knew that Lieutenant wasn't dedicated to the mission. Good thing we didn't assign him to an aircrew. Know where we can get a spare headset from for Major Bob?"

[Briski]

I don't have anything to add to the discussion at hand, other than this:

Cadet Daniel, I'm impressed that despite your disappointment and frustration--regardless of the circumstances--you have successfully refrained from publicly naming the leaders and the wing in question. You haven't even fully identified yourself, which would be an inadvertent and subtle way of identifying the wing.

There are many lessons about leadership and followership in your experience at this encampment. Don't squander this opportunity to learn them.

Hang in there.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Capt Briski,

I was just as impressed by the same things as you, however the reality is that anyone with an interest can probably go through his previous posts, the CAP website, and the web in general to figure out which wing it was. Not quite hard, at all.


BTW, a slow search led me to the Wing in question within 25 minutes.

[Hawk200]

BTW, a slow search led me to the Wing in question within 25 minutes.

Maybe so, but he didn't tell you. You had to find out for yourself. I think he shows a lot of maturity, and some real class, to not spew it out there.

[Daniel]

Greetings,

I'm posting because I'm done with this topic, I want to bury this entire incident in a very deep grave and move on with my cadet career. A few of you towards the end noticed I didn't post the wings name or individuals names. That's because this was never about them. This was about me, and what lesson I could take from this. It seemed like no one could say I didn't get a bum rap and maybe so, other than that it boiled down to do things, stay and complete the "mission" or take my pale and shovel and go back to my own sandbox.

As for what I can learn from this, that is simple. I know now that I probably was very angry afterwards and I know that came off in my discussions with the camp staff. everyone has point-of-views and since there is a conflict thier point-of-view is most likely different from yours, this doesn't make others wrong or you right. When everything is going good it is easy to keep a cool head and be professional but it is when you are in a situation that is difficult however.. Having a temper never make a situation better, only worse, and it is improtant to remember that.

As for my cadet career, it is hopefully going to remain strong for a great while to come. It is to my regret that I don't plan on attending encampment next year, and instead plan on attending Cadet Officer School in AL because I'm going to need it for the eaker.

[jimmydeanno]

It is to my regret that I don't plan on attending encampment next year, and instead plan on attending Cadet Officer School in AL because I'm going to need it for the eaker.

I wouldn't regret not going to encampment because of conflicting dates of COS.  COS is an outstanding program, and you won't be missing anything by not going to encampment.  Good luck as you continue moving along your course.

[CAP4117]

Daniel, you are wise beyond your years. Well done. Good luck with the rest of your cadet career. 

[lordmonar]

Let me add that while I was/am critical of your decision.....you were the man and the spot and you used your resources to the best of your abilities and have here on CAPTALK shown good discretion and tact.

Kudos to you.

I would definitely look at COS next year and other NCSAs as well.  Encampment is not the be all, end all of CAP and in many ways can be a detractor to learning all CAP wants to teach you.

Good luck.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Plus, who knows. Come next time you'll be what, a C/Major? Maybe they'll just offer the C/XO job to you right after COS.

Kidding aside, having looked at your posting over the last two years, you come off as a great cadet, and I would have no reservations about someone of your caliber staffing an event.

Here's to bigger and greater opportunities for you!

[Ron1319]

The solution is rather simple.  Get your diamonds and be part of the leadership that prevents and fights against this type of things from happening to other cadets.  This type of thing is one of the reasons the cadet retention rate is terrible and why so few cadets bother to complete the program.

[Nathan]

Greetings,

I'm posting because I'm done with this topic, I want to bury this entire incident in a very deep grave and move on with my cadet career. A few of you towards the end noticed I didn't post the wings name or individuals names. That's because this was never about them. This was about me, and what lesson I could take from this. It seemed like no one could say I didn't get a bum rap and maybe so, other than that it boiled down to do things, stay and complete the "mission" or take my pale and shovel and go back to my own sandbox.

As for what I can learn from this, that is simple. I know now that I probably was very angry afterwards and I know that came off in my discussions with the camp staff. everyone has point-of-views and since there is a conflict thier point-of-view is most likely different from yours, this doesn't make others wrong or you right. When everything is going good it is easy to keep a cool head and be professional but it is when you are in a situation that is difficult however.. Having a temper never make a situation better, only worse, and it is improtant to remember that.

Daniel, I personally don't blame you for what happened. I've been in this situation THREE TIMES (as well as being promised support for applications in other positions that never came through).

Seriously, I was in a position where I, as a C/Lt Col, was almost downgraded to a flight commander from the C/VC, simply because the cadet commander didn't want to adjust the flight rosters for a staff person who decided not to attend at last-second. Luckily, I was able to fight that off and say, "I'm a C/Lt Col, I've been working to make this encampment awesome from this position for a while, and I think it would be a serious waste of my time to be placed in a position I have already clearly mastered. We have plenty of cadets who have never filled that kind of a position who would benefit far more from the learning experience than me, and it would be a huge disservice to them to deny them that position." I was on the verge of going home as well, but after I presented an alternative plan for them, they just said, "Okay" and went about their way.

I will say, though, that I ended up sticking it out in all three of these situations, and don't regret that I did so. That's not to say that you were wrong to leave; it's impossible to know how the situation would have turned out had you stayed. But in all situations, even when I was downgraded, I still put a lot of work into whatever job I was assigned and still gained a lot from the experience. In fact, some of the seniors weren't ignorant to the situation I was in, and took notice that I did a good job in a crap situation, which definitely opened some doors for me later on.

Just something to remember for the future. I know I've written two letters of recommendation for a cadet who just absolutely ROCKED a logistics assignment. Even though he was assigned there because he did poorly on a staff application, I talked with him and told him the same sort of stuff in this post. I let him write his own job description, and he went nuts with it. Somehow, he was ALWAYS busy, whether it was running around the base refilling toilet paper, setting up classrooms for presentations, checking the cleaning supplies BEFORE cadets even got to their barracks, and predicting supply shortages days before they even occurred. He was truly one of the more impressive cadets I worked with, and despite having a "bad job", he pretty much made me feel that I screwed up during staff selection. 

[a2capt]

Gee, sounds like the 'CTG' clique mentality is spreading from out west..  It's not all about encampment. You don't need 9 encampments. There's a lot more that CAP has to offer than encampments. Attend one as a basic, staff one, staff a second .. move on.

[Briski]

Gee, sounds like the 'CTG' clique mentality is spreading from out west..  It's not all about encampment. You don't need 9 encampments. There's a lot more that CAP has to offer than encampments. Attend one as a basic, staff one, staff a second .. move on.

You're absolutely right that encampment is not (and should not) be the end-all, be-all of the Cadet Program.

But the fact remains that encampment is one of the few opportunities cadets have to live, eat, and breathe the so-called "leadership lab", giving them a no-joke hands-on chance to practice what they've read in their leadership books.

Encampment should never be the only activity a cadet ever attends, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with making it one of the major components of a well-rounded cadet career.  I came from a cadet squadron that was really the size of a flight, so I personally had to get out of my local unit and participate in larger activities to really learn how to think and act like a cadet officer.

I've never personally seen the "CTG clique mentality" that you refer to, but I have seen plenty of other situations where cliques were allowed to form completely independent of any other aspect of the Cadet Program. This is a local leadership issue, not an issue that arises from any one region or activity.

Cadet Daniel L. might or might not have become a casualty in one of these failed wars on social norms and human nature, in light of normal adolescent development.

[Ron1319]

Other opportunities to live and breathe CAP:

NCC
COS
Hawk Mountain
PJOC
Cadet Command, especially after growing your unit to >30 cadets
IACE
Major bivouacs.  We once had one with >200 members in attendance.

I have fond memories of being executive staff at an OHWG encampment.  I think there is more to be learned from recruiting and scaling a unit to a larger size and growing a strong cadet staff and cadet program.

[Ned]

Other opportunities to live and breathe CAP:

NCC
COS
Hawk Mountain
PJOC
Cadet Command, especially after growing your unit to >30 cadets
IACE
Major bivouacs.  We once had one with >200 members in attendance.

Agreed.  These are all wonderful opportunities.

I have fond memories of being executive staff at an OHWG encampment.  I think there is more to be learned from recruiting and scaling a unit to a larger size and growing a strong cadet staff and cadet program.

Of course, the two are not in any way inconsistent.  Indeed, I would expect cadets that thrive in an intense large encampment environment to have the skillsets necessary to grow and sustain large home units.

[Briski]

At the risk of completely derailing the topic...

Other opportunities to live and breathe CAP:

NCC
COS
Hawk Mountain
PJOC
Cadet Command, especially after growing your unit to >30 cadets
IACE
Major bivouacs.  We once had one with >200 members in attendance.

I think it's important to distinguish different types of activities.

It's helpful to consider the term "leadership laboratory." If we compare it to a chemistry class, you won't be very successful in chem lab without also having chem lecture, so you can understand the theories on an intellectual level before putting on the lab coat and goggles and mixing chemicals.

With that, I would consider encampment, NCC, and major bivouacs/FTXs (great example: Operation Wolverine in MIWG, a cadet-run SAREX complete with Cadet IC) to be leadership laboratories.

COS, RCLS, CLA, NCLC, and other academic programs would be leadership lecture.

Programs like PJOC, APJOC, HMRS, CCOC, and Cadet Survival School are what I would consider to be personal leadership crucibles, as they are specifically designed to force cadets out of their comfort zones and to push them beyond their pre-conceived notions of their own abilities. This process brings them to a new level of confidence and ability to perform under pressure.

There can be some double dipping, since returning to HMRS as Cadet Staff would clearly also be a leadership laboratory, and serving on Cadet Staff at an encampment could certainly be a leadership crucible, as well.

Any CAP activity that is a week (or longer) in duration provides an awesome opportunity for cadets to live, eat, breathe, and dream CAP. It's really only a matter of which aspect it is that they're living, eating, breathing, and dreaming: leadership lab, leadership lecture, leadership crucible, or other great opportunities they might not get outside of CAP, such as flight training and Air Force and aviation career exploration.

I have fond memories of being executive staff at an OHWG encampment.  I think there is more to be learned from recruiting and scaling a unit to a larger size and growing a strong cadet staff and cadet program.

I have fond memories of developing an awesome long-term version for training the Cadet Staff in my squadron so we'd be able to sustain the influx of new cadets resulting from a massive recruiting drive.

Too bad my awesome long-term vision didn't account for the fact that I didn't have enough support from the SMs in my squadron to make it a reality, since they were somewhat disengaged.

[Nathan]

Gee, sounds like the 'CTG' clique mentality is spreading from out west..  It's not all about encampment. You don't need 9 encampments. There's a lot more that CAP has to offer than encampments. Attend one as a basic, staff one, staff a second .. move on.

So under that rule, I would have attended my first basic encampment as a C/SrA, returned as a C/SMSgt as a cadet flight sergeant, and then I should have been done.

Which means I would not have served as a C/Squadron Commander, C/PAO, C/VC, or C/CC at the encampment, and never have gained the valuable experience that I did from those activities. Nor would I have developed the very valuable contacts and worked with many of the awesome people I met during those encampments.

Huh.

[Eclipse]

Gee, sounds like the 'CTG' clique mentality is spreading from out west..  It's not all about encampment. You don't need 9 encampments. There's a lot more that CAP has to offer than encampments. Attend one as a basic, staff one, staff a second .. move on.

Move on?  Where?

Encampments are the largest non-unit-specific activity accessible to most members.  We'd love it if NCSA's and similar activities were within reach of everyone, but they aren't, for various and sundry reasons, to include location, timing, and the ever-present cost, and unlike NCSA's, encampments
are a core component of the cadet curriculum.

They aren't supposed to be the last-minute checkbox that they have become for many cadets, they are supposed to be the SAREx's of the Cadet program, where you show what you have learned at home, and maybe learn a few things to bring back.

[Ron1319]

Gotta love California..  Distance from Placerville, CA to Camp Pendleton (CAWG Encampment) - 510 miles.  If you discounted practices and prior competitions, NCC was cheaper by far.  I can't comment directly on the quality of the event since I haven't yet attended, but I do know that the "memory work" hasn't been updated in about 20 years and some of it directly contradicts the manuals/study material.

[Eclipse]

Wow - our furthest point-to-point would be about 400 miles, but we have two encampments, the second being more centrally located, and those more Southern cadets have other options in nearby states as well.

NCC, though, isn't really the same thing, in fact few of the NCSA's really equal an encampment in terms of scope or mission, which for encampment is essentially exercise of followership, leadership, and the core basics of the cadet program (vs. ES, aerospace, or whatever the other missions of the
specific NCSA is, where the basics of the program are important but secondary).

[Ned]

Gotta love California..  Distance from Placerville, CA to Camp Pendleton (CAWG Encampment) - 510 miles. 

That, of course, is the reason we prefer to put encampment "mid-state" at Vandenberg AFB or Camp San Luis Obispo (yes, I know that is only "mid-state" if you forget about anything above San Francisco, but most Californians talk about SF as "Northern California" even though there is another 400 miles of California above SF.)

But, there appears to be a war or two going on, and we get our facilities where we can.

And for the last couple of years, that has been Pendelton in So Cal.

[ol'fido]

Wow - our furthest point-to-point would be about 400 miles, but we have two encampments, the second being more centrally located, and those more Southern cadets have other options in nearby states as well.

NCC, though, isn't really the same thing, in fact few of the NCSA's really equal an encampment in terms of scope or mission, which for encampment is essentially exercise of followership, leadership, and the core basics of the cadet program (vs. ES, aerospace, or whatever the other missions of the
specific NCSA is, where the basics of the program are important but secondary).

Plus we have a contingent that yearly drives up from Houston, TX to attend summer encampment. This year we had a student at RCLS who paid his own airfare to get to Illinois from Pennsylvania. Somehow he got routed into Peoria and rode the Greyhound from Peoria to Champaign and finally back to Springfield at 1 am Sunday night.

[wacapgh]

It's helpful to consider the term "leadership laboratory."

Hmm that sounds kinda' familiar. Like it was printed on the cover of an old book or manual.... 

[SarDragon]

It's helpful to consider the term "leadership laboratory."

Hmm that sounds kinda' familiar. Like it was printed on the cover of an old book or manual.... 

Oh, look - CAPM 50-3, First Edition, 1965.