National Blue Beret Questions

[JROB]

This is a gold mine of information... now if only i had a full packing list.  Did/does anyone get/have one they could send me?  Me and a few buddies who are going are missing that information.

-Rogovin

You're so righ this is a Gold mine of information. I will be attending Blue Beret as a TAC. I think this may be the most fun i've had in CAP

[ES Ninja]

Hey y'all, I'm an NBB 2010 graduate, and was a flight commander. So, here's from my experience:

will GTM cover all of that? or will I need to find additional training?  thanks

No worries, everything you need to know and don't, you will be taught.

does anyone have any suggestions as to what extra to bring i.e. anything they don't put on the packing list?

If you have your 24 hour gear, BRING ALL OF IT. Last year most of us only brought our UDF gear (because that's what was on the packing list), and when we went to do pack inspection we got in trouble. Our TAC had to make a run to Walmart for a few of our flight members. One thing not on the list you need is an orange vest. RRING ONE! Last year they ran out. Also, last year it rained a ton (we refer to it as the Splosh-kosh Airshow) so I would advise bringing a mil-spec poncho (it keeps you drier than the cheap kind). Also, a second pair of boots is totally worth it, if you have more than one pair. Finally, bring a couple razors just for shaving your beret! Then when you get it, you won't have to wait for your TAC to grab some before you can get started.

I have never been to a NCSA. So this will be my first year at NBB. I will be attending as a Lt Col possibly a full Colonel. What can i expect as far as leadership goes?

Good question. As far as cadet leadership goes, rank means nothing. You will be dealing with mostly officers, and you will be in a no-salute zone nearly 24-7. ES Quals don't mean nearly as much as at a SAREX, either, because by the end of NBB you all have quite a list.There will be two "leadership structures," if you will. The first is staff-wise. TACs select their flight commanders and flight leaders (officer equivalent of flight sergeant) the day before the activity starts. These two cadets will be in charge of your flight. Cadet staff position has nothing to do with rank, so if you don't get staff, expect to follow a lower-ranking cadet for the activity. The second structure is the RBs, or Returning Berets. Those who have already completed NBB have special privileges at the activity (word of caution: stay off the green!) that other cadets, regardless of rank, do not. Also, although they may not be staff, they will be respected by their staff, and by other cadets.

Final words: don't let anything get your spirits down (including security shifts on the flight line at 0300 in pouring rain)! NBB is what you make it. Be prepared to work hard, laugh a lot, walk a ton, beat the Boyscouts at the annual CAP-Boyscout volleyball competition, and go to bed exhausted but satisfied each night. When you leave, you'll have some amazing friends, and you'll be part of the NBB cadre - an elite group you can't understand until you're a beret. Have fun, and good luck!

Good memories. I remeber how much we got along the first few day :p and now look at how good we get along!!!!

I try NOT to remember how well we got along the first few days :-P

Haha seriously though, good times. Have fun at COS this summer! Wish I could be there.

[WESSginger]

Hey y'all, I'm an NBB 2010 graduate, and was a flight commander. So, here's from my experience:

will GTM cover all of that? or will I need to find additional training?  thanks

No worries, everything you need to know and don't, you will be taught.

does anyone have any suggestions as to what extra to bring i.e. anything they don't put on the packing list?

If you have your 24 hour gear, BRING ALL OF IT. Last year most of us only brought our UDF gear (because that's what was on the packing list), and when we went to do pack inspection we got in trouble. Our TAC had to make a run to Walmart for a few of our flight members. One thing not on the list you need is an orange vest. RRING ONE! Last year they ran out. Also, last year it rained a ton (we refer to it as the Splosh-kosh Airshow) so I would advise bringing a mil-spec poncho (it keeps you drier than the cheap kind). Also, a second pair of boots is totally worth it, if you have more than one pair. Finally, bring a couple razors just for shaving your beret! Then when you get it, you won't have to wait for your TAC to grab some before you can get started.

I have never been to a NCSA. So this will be my first year at NBB. I will be attending as a Lt Col possibly a full Colonel. What can i expect as far as leadership goes?

Good question. As far as cadet leadership goes, rank means nothing. You will be dealing with mostly officers, and you will be in a no-salute zone nearly 24-7. ES Quals don't mean nearly as much as at a SAREX, either, because by the end of NBB you all have quite a list.There will be two "leadership structures," if you will. The first is staff-wise. TACs select their flight commanders and flight leaders (officer equivalent of flight sergeant) the day before the activity starts. These two cadets will be in charge of your flight. Cadet staff position has nothing to do with rank, so if you don't get staff, expect to follow a lower-ranking cadet for the activity. The second structure is the RBs, or Returning Berets. Those who have already completed NBB have special privileges at the activity (word of caution: stay off the green!) that other cadets, regardless of rank, do not. Also, although they may not be staff, they will be respected by their staff, and by other cadets.

Final words: don't let anything get your spirits down (including security shifts on the flight line at 0300 in pouring rain)! NBB is what you make it. Be prepared to work hard, laugh a lot, walk a ton, beat the Boyscouts at the annual CAP-Boyscout volleyball competition, and go to bed exhausted but satisfied each night. When you leave, you'll have some amazing friends, and you'll be part of the NBB cadre - an elite group you can't understand until you're a beret. Have fun, and good luck!

Good memories. I remeber how much we got along the first few day :p and now look at how good we get along!!!!

I try NOT to remember how well we got along the first few days :-P

Haha seriously though, good times. Have fun at COS this summer! Wish I could be there.

Hahaha yeah I know. We where both a little head strong. I was a lot more you. Thanks. I hope you guys have a great time in England!

[RC007]

Oshkosh will be one of the best weeks of your life guaranteed. Of course I went not with NBB,  but with my friends campin out. You'll still have a great time.

[Rogovin]

Approaching the end of April, and i still dont have all of the paperwork (that was supposed to be sent out in MID-April.)  Not that i dont trust staff, but this is appearently unsusal.

>.<

-Rogovin

[NCRblues]

Approaching the end of April, and i still don't have all of the paperwork (that was supposed to be sent out in MID-April.)  Not that i dont trust staff, but this is appearently unsusal.

>.<

-Rogovin

It is a little unusual, but you will get the paperwork in time. You still have all of may, June, and half of July to turn it in. 

Remember, this is CAP, a volunteer organization, and the hard working SM who are making beret happen, still have jobs and family.

[Rogovin]

I have great respect for the Senior Members who spend countless hours of their valuable time, but i know of several people who have hit up every contact they could find to get/hear about if/when paperwork was coming out.  However, none of them got so much as a single reply.  I'm not criticizing anyone, but half the paperwork was put up on the NCSA page on the website, with no mention of when the rest is to be expected.  We are essentially deaf here, and using past years as an idea of what happened when, it seems that something is out of place this year.  Nothing bad, just unusual.  I trust the staff implicitly, but perhaps a "you will receive the paperwork no later than (insert date here) would put many minds at ease."

-Rogovin

[SouthernSAR]

...but half the paperwork was put up on the NCSA page on the website..."

Could you please point me in the direction of which website this is, or where to find this? The only website I could find with any references to paperwork was the national CAP site, and that info was useless to me at this time.

Thanks,
     SouthernSAR


EDIT: Nvm, I'm dumb. I just found it. *facepalm*

[NCRblues]

I have great respect for the Senior Members who spend countless hours of their valuable time, but i know of several people who have hit up every contact they could find to get/hear about if/when paperwork was coming out.  However, none of them got so much as a single reply.  I'm not criticizing anyone, but half the paperwork was put up on the NCSA page on the website, with no mention of when the rest is to be expected.  We are essentially deaf here, and using past years as an idea of what happened when, it seems that something is out of place this year.  Nothing bad, just unusual.  I trust the staff implicitly, but perhaps a "you will receive the paperwork no later than (insert date here) would put many minds at ease."

-Rogovin

This year we have a change in leadership at beret, as well as a change in how things are selected or get done.

Don't worry, it will be sent out in plenty of time.

Everything is up to the activity director. It is his call on everything. Its all new and we are all trying to adapt.

Simply put, stand by.

[Rogovin]

Yessir.  I have no doubt Lt Col. Peace will get things done well.  But that is good to know why there is a delay.  Will you be there this year, NCRBlues?

-Rogovin

[NCRblues]

Yessir.  I have no doubt Lt Col. Peace will get things done well.  But that is good to know why there is a delay.  Will you be there this year, NCRBlues?

-Rogovin

Baring any major natural disasters/ WW 3/ or lack of a job, i will be attending for my 6th time. 

[Rogovin]

With all due respect, #'s 1 and 3 might be a problem in todays world, sir.   
-Rogovin

[VPI18]

So, after being alternated last year, and again this year, I suddenly got an e-mail today offering me a slot a NBB. Needless to say, I jumped on the opportunity, and only a few hours later, I am now officially going to NBB. This leaves me with several questions:

1. How does staff selection work?

2. The packing list says I may use a Camelbak. Do I still need the LC-2 suspenders and pistol belt for some reason I cannot think of?

3. Is there any additional equipment that should be brought that is not listed on the 2011 list (other than a reflective vest)?

[RickFranz]

So, after being alternated last year, and again this year, I suddenly got an e-mail today offering me a slot a NBB. Needless to say, I jumped on the opportunity, and only a few hours later, I am now officially going to NBB. This leaves me with several questions:

1. How does staff selection work?

2. The packing list says I may use a Camelbak. Do I still need the LC-2 suspenders and pistol belt for some reason I cannot think of?

3. Is there any additional equipment that should be brought that is not listed on the 2011 list (other than a reflective vest)?

Maybe I can help.
1.  A large number of people apply for this and other activities, once they get slotted for another activity say IACE they drop going to NBB.  The staff then starts going through the list to see who can go. 

2.  The Camelbaks are nice you can carry a lot of water with you.  You still will be carrying other items such as a poncho and a length of yellow rope etc...

3.  If you have the items on the list you should be set.

Hope you have a good time up there this year.

[RC007]

I have not been to Oshkosh since 09, because of a few constraints. I'll guarantee you will have a good time, I can't say too much for the CAP side, but it's an awesome airshow. The people are real friendly, and nice. I'm goin to SUPTFC instead of NBB this year, but I'll try to be there next year.

[Nathan]

1. How does staff selection work?

Lt Col Franz interpreted this question as if you were a senior, which may or may not be right (I don't spend enough time on these boards to recognize everyone by username yet...).

But in case you are a cadet, or any cadets have a question about the cadet-side of staff selection, then based on my rather dated experience (2004), it depends on what you're interested in. The cadet executive staff has likely already been selected ahead of time. The cadet flight commanders and flight leaders (or whatever the substitute for flight sergeant is) are selected by the TAC officers within the first day or so.

When I was there, everyone who was interested in serving as a cadet flight leader of some sort went and interviewed with every TAC officer. The TACS then selected who they wanted to serve in the first and second flight command positions. Simple as that.

And FYI, the influence of cadet rank on likelihood of being selected as staff is completely dependent on the TACs. The year I was there, we had a C/CMSgt as the flight leader in charge of a flight full of C/Officers. Since NBB tends to get higher-ranking cadet applicants, it's pretty common for subordinate ranks to be placed in charge of superior ranks.

At least, that's how it was in 2004. It could be completely different now.

[Eclipse]

And FYI, the influence of cadet rank on likelihood of being selected as staff is completely dependent on the TACs. The year I was there, we had a C/CMSgt as the flight leader in charge of a flight full of C/Officers. Since NBB tends to get higher-ranking cadet applicants, it's pretty common for subordinate ranks to be placed in charge of superior ranks.

The TAC Officers do a cattle call for line staff and NCO's are in charge of officers?

Another piece of the puzzle...

[NCRblues]

And FYI, the influence of cadet rank on likelihood of being selected as staff is completely dependent on the TACs. The year I was there, we had a C/CMSgt as the flight leader in charge of a flight full of C/Officers. Since NBB tends to get higher-ranking cadet applicants, it's pretty common for subordinate ranks to be placed in charge of superior ranks.

The TAC Officers do a cattle call for line staff and NCO's are in charge of officers?

Another piece of the puzzle...

It is not a cattle call eclipse...

In years past, Cadets wishing to apply for cadet staff (that is flight commander and flight leader) must show up a day before the main cadet corp, and interview before the 12 TAC officers. They are called in one at a time, and asked questions. Cadet grade is not brought into the equation.

Since the age restriction for participation in NBB is 16 and above, we normally get only officers, with some random higher ranking NCOs mixed in. Yes, sometimes a cadet chief is placed in the flight commander position above cadet officers. It is made clear, that cadet grade is to be respected by everyone, but just because your a c/col does not mean you automatically get a flight commander slot. Because of the vast amount of knowledge that cadets and new Sm's are forced to absorb, preference for flight staff positions normally lean towards cadets that are returning.

This year we are trying something a little different. The interview process took up a lot of time, so the TACs are picking flight staff before arrival at NBB this year.

[UWONGO2]

We had a member recently join who a few years ago was a cadet and attended NBB. This new member was excited to get a uniform put together and excitedly mentioned wearing a beret. I sorta killed the mood when I said they weren't allowed by and regulation or ICL that I was aware of, except at the activity itself. I was provided a passionate defense for wearing the beret, including how the member's former wing commander with another wing wore a beret all the time, but I said until I heard differently from our wing commander, no pancakes.

To the new member's credit, instead of getting into a big huff the member instead brought to our next meeting some minutes from a national board meeting where the board appears to approve the beret for BDU and BBDU wear. Again I brought the mood down when I pointed out the follow-up action was to obtain approval from the Air Force to wear the beret with BDUs and to update the appropriate regulations. I asked if that approval was obtained or had any regulations were updated. I'm clearly no fun, but it was agreed neither of these two actions occurred.

At the next meeting after that (yes, there is a trend here), I was provided with an email exchange with Ms. Parker from NHQ. In it she states the beret is authorized for wear after the NBB activity and offered to answer any questions from a commander who wanted additional information. Mine did.

From: "Parker, Susie"
Date: 2011
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

The blue beret is authorized for wear after the activity now.  The May 2008 NEC confirmed this policy.  Unfortunately it didn't make it into the Uniform change letters and now we're in the middle of major uniform review so we're not issuing any other letters.  I'd be happy to provide information to any commander that has a question concerning the wear.  Keep in mind, commanders still have the authority to determine what uniform can be worn at their meetings/events so a commander could certainly prescribe headgear that does not include the beret.

It is difficult to keep up with all the changes and we hope to have a better system soon.  If I can help with anything else please let me know.

--------

From: My SQ/CC
Sent: 2011
To: Parker, Susie

I am a Unit Commander so I'll take you up on your offer to provide the supporting documentation from the May 2008 NEC (or elsewhere) that authorizes the wear of the Blue Beret and any limitations/restrictions/conditions.

I will also run this by our Wing Commander, as I feel that he would be the one to authorize this or set any conditions on when it is worn or not worn.

Thanks for your help.

Squadron Commander

--------

From: Parker, Susie
Sent: 2011
To: SQ/CC
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

Attached is a copy of the May 2008 minutes that should answer your questions.  See page 21.

--------

From: SQ/CC
Sent: 2011
To: 'Parker, Susie'
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

So now that I've had time to digest Pages 21-24, it states on Page 24 that the only uniform approved for IMMEDIATE wear of the "identified uniform items" (including the Blue Beret) was the CAP Blue Uniform (as shown below)

THE AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: Implementation of immediate wear of identified uniform items on
CAP blue field uniform, notification to the field, and change to CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniform
Manual. Also, NHQ staff request Air Force approval to wear identified uniform items on Air
Force-style uniforms.

Was Air Force approval ever obtained for wear on the Air Force style uniforms?  I don't see it included in any of the four CAP/CC Letters on the pubs page under CAPM 39-1.

Thanks again for your help!

--------

From: Parker, Susie [mailto:SPARKER@capnhq.gov]
Sent: 2011
To: SQ/CC
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

CAP already had permission to wear the blue beret with the AF style uniform so it wasn't an issue.

--------

From: SQ/CC
Sent: 2011
To: Parker, Susie
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

Thanks.

--------

From: Parker, Susie [mailto:SPARKER@capnhq.gov]
Sent: 2011
To: SQ/CC
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

The only change to the blue beret was the hat device so it wasn't an issue---sorry for all the confusion.

Neither my SQ/CC or I understand would Ms. Parker was referencing at the end, we weren't asking about a hat device (perhaps she meant to email that to someone else). Throughly confused by the issue, my SQ/CC gave up. My opinion is that we never asked the Air Force for approval, either because nobody got around to it, or it was assumed that because they were ok with it at Oshkosh, they're ok with it nationwide. For the past couple of months we have tried to get an opinion from the wing commander, but he hasn't responded either way (clearly he has more important items to deal with, so we weren't surprised).

Doing some searching here, I noticed Eclipse, someone who clearly knows CAP inside and out, said this:

The KB is not, in and of itself, regulatory, and in more than a few cases has been shown to be incorrect.
In most cases it just quotes and shortcuts to existing regulations, so it's not being regulatory in and of itself, only quoting other pubs.

The challenge comes when a staffer writes a subjective opinion and posts it as fact.  NHQ staffers, while possibly sitting right next to
the person with the authority, or being in the meeting where the issue was discussed, or even being privy to the printing of the
reg that changes things, do not in and of of themselves have authority to make policy of changes our regs, so that leaves
room for people to argue about the regulatory nature of the resource.

So what most people do is use it as support for a subjective decision, or ignore it as not authoritative when they disagree.

Frankly, once the KB says something that is further backed by Suzy Parker, that is good enough for me, regardless of whether I personally agree.

So I'm a little unsure how to proceed. The new member will stick with us, beret or no beret, but I don't want to disallow something NHQ appears to say is OK.

Does anyone have anything more definitive on this? With NBB coming up, we'll be having a few cadets returning with goofy headgear that they'll want to wear and I'd like to be ready.

[JC004]

We had a member recently join who a few years ago was a cadet and attended NBB. This new member was excited to get a uniform put together and excitedly mentioned wearing a beret. I sorta killed the mood when I said they weren't allowed by and regulation or ICL that I was aware of, except at the activity itself. I was provided a passionate defense for wearing the beret, including how the member's former wing commander with another wing wore a beret all the time, but I said until I heard differently from our wing commander, no pancakes.

To the new member's credit, instead of getting into a big huff the member instead brought to our next meeting some minutes from a national board meeting where the board appears to approve the beret for BDU and BBDU wear. Again I brought the mood down when I pointed out the follow-up action was to obtain approval from the Air Force to wear the beret with BDUs and to update the appropriate regulations. I asked if that approval was obtained or had any regulations were updated. I'm clearly no fun, but it was agreed neither of these two actions occurred.

At the next meeting after that (yes, there is a trend here), I was provided with an email exchange with Ms. Parker from NHQ. In it she states the beret is authorized for wear after the NBB activity and offered to answer any questions from a commander who wanted additional information. Mine did.

From: "Parker, Susie"
Date: 2011
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

The blue beret is authorized for wear after the activity now.  The May 2008 NEC confirmed this policy.  Unfortunately it didn’t make it into the Uniform change letters and now we’re in the middle of major uniform review so we’re not issuing any other letters.  I’d be happy to provide information to any commander that has a question concerning the wear.  Keep in mind, commanders still have the authority to determine what uniform can be worn at their meetings/events so a commander could certainly prescribe headgear that does not include the beret.

It is difficult to keep up with all the changes and we hope to have a better system soon.  If I can help with anything else please let me know.

--------

From: My SQ/CC
Sent: 2011
To: Parker, Susie

I am a Unit Commander so I’ll take you up on your offer to provide the supporting documentation from the May 2008 NEC (or elsewhere) that authorizes the wear of the Blue Beret and any limitations/restrictions/conditions.

I will also run this by our Wing Commander, as I feel that he would be the one to authorize this or set any conditions on when it is worn or not worn.

Thanks for your help.

Squadron Commander

--------

From: Parker, Susie
Sent: 2011
To: SQ/CC
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

Attached is a copy of the May 2008 minutes that should answer your questions.  See page 21.

--------

From: SQ/CC
Sent: 2011
To: 'Parker, Susie'
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

So now that I’ve had time to digest Pages 21-24, it states on Page 24 that the only uniform approved for IMMEDIATE wear of the “identified uniform items” (including the Blue Beret) was the CAP Blue Uniform (as shown below)

THE AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: Implementation of immediate wear of identified uniform items on
CAP blue field uniform, notification to the field, and change to CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniform
Manual. Also, NHQ staff request Air Force approval to wear identified uniform items on Air
Force-style uniforms.

Was Air Force approval ever obtained for wear on the Air Force style uniforms?  I don’t see it included in any of the four CAP/CC Letters on the pubs page under CAPM 39-1.

Thanks again for your help!

--------

From: Parker, Susie [mailto:SPARKER@capnhq.gov]
Sent: 2011
To: SQ/CC
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

CAP already had permission to wear the blue beret with the AF style uniform so it wasn’t an issue.

--------

From: SQ/CC
Sent: 2011
To: Parker, Susie
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

Thanks.

--------

From: Parker, Susie [mailto:SPARKER@capnhq.gov]
Sent: 2011
To: SQ/CC
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

The only change to the blue beret was the hat device so it wasn’t an issue---sorry for all the confusion.

Neither my SQ/CC or I understand would Ms. Parker was referencing at the end, we weren't asking about a hat device (perhaps she meant to email that to someone else). Throughly confused by the issue, my SQ/CC gave up. My opinion is that we never asked the Air Force for approval, either because nobody got around to it, or it was assumed that because they were ok with it at Oshkosh, they're ok with it nationwide. For the past couple of months we have tried to get an opinion from the wing commander, but he hasn't responded either way (clearly he has more important items to deal with, so we weren't surprised).

Doing some searching here, I noticed Eclipse, someone who clearly knows CAP inside and out, said this:

The KB is not, in and of itself, regulatory, and in more than a few cases has been shown to be incorrect.
In most cases it just quotes and shortcuts to existing regulations, so it's not being regulatory in and of itself, only quoting other pubs.

The challenge comes when a staffer writes a subjective opinion and posts it as fact.  NHQ staffers, while possibly sitting right next to
the person with the authority, or being in the meeting where the issue was discussed, or even being privy to the printing of the
reg that changes things, do not in and of of themselves have authority to make policy of changes our regs, so that leaves
room for people to argue about the regulatory nature of the resource.

So what most people do is use it as support for a subjective decision, or ignore it as not authoritative when they disagree.

Frankly, once the KB says something that is further backed by Suzy Parker, that is good enough for me, regardless of whether I personally agree.

So I'm a little unsure how to proceed. The new member will stick with us, beret or no beret, but I don't want to disallow something NHQ appears to say is OK.

Does anyone have anything more definitive on this? With NBB coming up, we'll be having a few cadets returning with goofy headgear that they'll want to wear and I'd like to be ready.

This seems really unnecessarily complicated.  The NEC approved the expanded wear of it and it is already an item that is approved by the Air Force for wear with the CAP uniform.  The Air Force doesn't really do "it can be worn this time and not that time."  The Air Force just says up and down whether an item can be worn with their uniform.  It sounds more like you are looking for a way to find it unauthorized.  If the NEC has approved it and the Wing CC hasn't limited it, why are you asking the Wing CC?  It's not one of the things that has to be specifically authorized by the Wing CC for wear like the service cap (by cadets).