Local Ground Teams or Wing "Pool" Teams

Started by ♠SARKID♠, April 14, 2014, 09:32:08 PM

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♠SARKID♠

So I learned something new about ILWG over the weekend during a joint SAREX with WIWG and MNWG. For those of you from ILWG, feel free to correct me if I have this wrong.

From what I understand, our noisy neighbors to the south don't organize their ground teams by squadron. They just have a mass pool of GTMs and GTLs and build ad hock teams out of that pool at each particular mission. This varies greatly from WIWG where our members form teams at their squadron. For example, when WIWG requested how many ground teams ILWG was sending for the SAREX we received just a list of people and their qualifications. Ask that withing WIWG and you'll get a list that says "Milwaukee GT with 4 people, Madison GT with 7 people, Steven's Point team with 5 people, etc." Generally, we only attach people to other GTs when they don't have enough people from their squadron to form their own.

It all really confused me when the two ILWG GTs started talking about trading people upon demobilization to get everyone closer to home. Didn't you all come from the same two places?? It wasn't until later that I found out how they work their team setup.

How normal is this within other wings? Each wing is it's own kingdom, and if this works for ILWG more power to them, but it still seems pretty strange to me.

Garibaldi

Well, we are pretty coherent as teams within units but we do a lot of inter-unit training so we know each others' capabilities pretty well. None of this throwing together people who don't know each other's capabilities stuff.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Eclipse

#2
You are correct in your understanding.  We organize teams from those that respond.

You can't "organize by squadron" assets that don't exist.  I would say that less then 1/3 or the wing's units have anything close to
a full team, and there's no assumption every one of those people play on a given day.  I'd hazard 1/3 of the wing doesn't participate in
ES in any way meaningful, or only has aircrew assets.  To say this was a "frustration" of mine in my previous posting would be an understatement.

The preference, of course, is to have people who have worked together form teams and deploy as a unit, but there might be 3-4 units
in the wing that have a "team" of any kind, and in many cases, those team leaders were filling other billets last weekend.

The peak of our ability the last decade or so was probably about 3 years ago when we had a strong showing on both the air and ground side
for the last Eval.  As I recall we had in excess of 45 fully qualified GTM & GTLs, none of which were double-billetted, and we put together something
like 7 or 8 teams, all well above minimum strength, and that didn't include other ground assets who deployed direct and never came to the ICP.

Few and far between are wing-level missions these days where you're running teams to Hotel and considering if you need India and Juliet.


"That Others May Zoom"

ol'fido

In my group, we have one squadron that has a fully qualified ground team and they can and have responded to missions from the southern to the northern part of the group. We have one more squadron that is in the beginning stage of organizing their team. We also have several "aircrews" that usually work together but during our recent SAREX we shuffled things up during the day to learn to work with each other and to get several people into different seats to update quals. Our ES capability has stagnated down here for a while, but we are working to get it back up to speed.

I too am against the "pool" solution unless there is no other choice. A ground team should be just that a "team" and not a collection of individuals who have never worked together before.

Almost 20 years ago, during one of our training bivouacs, myself and another ground team leader were leading two separate teams that had been inserted into opposite ends of a search area. We were supposed to meet up and search another area together. The other team ran into some difficulty and had to turn back. The mission staff was panicking thinking that they had to locate my team since I didn't know the other team had turned back. My buddy who was leading the other team and I had been working together for as GT for nearly 15 years at this point. He told them not to worry, that I would probably come walking into camp anytime. They didn't believe him. They were getting ready to go into full mission mode when I walked into camp.  They kind of had dumbfounded look on their faces when I explained my thoughts about what had happened. It turns out that I told them almost verbatim what my buddy had told them. They couldn't believe that two people would think that much alike. Like I said, we were a team. We knew pretty much what each other would do in any given situation and it gave us a big advantage in the field.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Spaceman3750

The OSC and I had a conversation about this over lunch on Sunday. I gathered pretty quickly that you guys had local teams when I started hearing radio calls from "Madison Ground Team" on the same designator as our "Ground Team Alpha". Most of our units don't have the numbers to support a local ground team. I had it once but the members trickled-out and I didn't have the leadership skills at the time to keep it together. We could probably do it at the group-level without an issue in most places, though my group covers something along the lines of 1/3 of the state after the consolidation so that would be an issue.

I love the idea of having local teams. I really, really do. As a GTL, I would much rather go out for a few hours every couple of months with the same group of folks and train new people/maintain proficiency. Instead I start every exercise from ground zero because I have to show up at mission base and hope the GBD doesn't give me a vanload of goobers. But even if I had the numbers I can't keep people's attention spans long enough to get them to do GES, let alone GTM3.

Sincerely,

White Cell 1

Sapper168

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 15, 2014, 12:26:26 AM
The OSC and I had a conversation about this over lunch on Sunday. I gathered pretty quickly that you guys had local teams when I started hearing radio calls from "Madison Ground Team" on the same designator as our "Ground Team Alpha". Most of our units don't have the numbers to support a local ground team. I had it once but the members trickled-out and I didn't have the leadership skills at the time to keep it together. We could probably do it at the group-level without an issue in most places, though my group covers something along the lines of 1/3 of the state after the consolidation so that would be an issue.

I love the idea of having local teams. I really, really do. As a GTL, I would much rather go out for a few hours every couple of months with the same group of folks and train new people/maintain proficiency. Instead I start every exercise from ground zero because I have to show up at mission base and hope the GBD doesn't give me a vanload of goobers. But even if I had the numbers I can't keep people's attention spans long enough to get them to do GES, let alone GTM3.

Sincerely,

White Cell 1

Spaceman, with my SET approval I am working on getting people qualed for both GTM3 and UDF here in Springfield.  Need to get with you though to borrow an lPer and practice beacon sometime this summer.
Shane E Guernsey, TSgt, CAP
CAP Squadron ESO... "Who did what now?"
CAP Squadron NCO Advisor... "Where is the coffee located?"
US Army 12B... "Sappers Lead the Way!"
US Army Reserve 71L-f5... "Going Postal!"

lordmonar

The only question I have about a wing "pool" concept is.......who brings the "team" gear?

Is every member supposed to have a complete team set up.....just in case they are the only one who shows up?   Is it just the GTLs?

Does wing have a few kits per-positioned?
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

This "list" doesn't exactly require a sherpa.

All GTLs should have it, and most GTMs I've encountered do, anyway.
And no GTL, no team, so there you go.

LEADER'S EQUIPMENT  - only required of Ground Team Leaders
• Protractor -- for map work.
• Map Case
- Large Zip-Loc bags can be used if necessary
• Pencil, with eraser
• Alcohol Pens, fine tip, at least 2 colors
- neither the color of your colored flashlight lens)
• Some way to erase alcohol pens marks on the map case, such as alcohol swabs or a special alcohol pen eraser.
• A straightedge ruler, at least 6" long
- Some protractors may have a ruler as well
• Ground Team Leader Handbook


Did I miss something?

"That Others May Zoom"

♠SARKID♠

What I'm gathering is that not having enough peeps at each squadron to form a team is the primary driving force for the pool concept. Maybe we're lucky in Wisconsin, but as far as I know any squadron that wants to stand up a team has had enough people to do it. I'm a fan of smaller teams anyways (4-6) so it doesn't bother me to have less people.

Ditto on Lordmonar. The team gear isn't the leader gear - it's the LPers, GPS unit, maps, radios, laptops, etc.

There's also no reliability on specific teams. Here in WIWG, we know the idiosyncrasies of certain teams. Who has strengths, who has weaknesses, who's effective, and who isn't. That plays into how they get tasked, and is lost in the pool version.

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 15, 2014, 12:26:26 AM
Sincerely,

White Cell 1

Didn't expect to see that, lol.

Eclipse

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on April 15, 2014, 06:09:59 AMit's the LPers, GPS unit, maps, radios, laptops, etc.

I don't really consider that "team gear" - every body has that stuff, with the exception of the L-Pers which are assigned to
groups or units, not teams.


"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2014, 05:34:09 AM
This "list" doesn't exactly require a sherpa.

O-0006 17-MAR-04
GROUND TEAM EQUIPMENT LIST
MANDATORY EQUIPMENT
Vehicle- Mounted FM transceiver
Handheld FM transceiver
Signal Panels, (2'x6'), 6
Water, 5 gallons
Blood Borne Pathogen Kit (s)
Shovel/E-Tool
Camera with film (instant preferred, 35mm
acceptable)
MISSION KIT
CAPF-78, 5
CAPF-106, 25
CAPF-109, 10
ICSF 214, 10
Road Map
Aeronautical Sectional Chart
Ground and UDF Team Task Guide
DISTRESS BEACON-DF KIT
Direction Finding Unit With Antennas
1/4 Wave Vehicle Antenna
Rubber Or Telescoping Antenna
Spare Batteries, Tools To Install Them
CRASH SITE SURVEILLANCE KIT
Staple Gun with Spares
Warning Placards, 20
Binoculars
Instant Camera
Barrier Tape, 500 meters
FIRST AID KIT
Backpack-Type Bag
4"X4" Gauze Pads, Wrapped, 25
Eye Pads, Wrapped, 5
Trauma/Combine Dressings, 10
Triangular Bandages, 10
Kling Roll Bandage, 3 And 6", 10
Handi-Wipes/Alcohol Pads
Latex Gloves
Antiseptic Swabs, 20
Adhesive Tape, 1" X 10 yd, 2
Adhesive Tape, 2î X 10 yd, 2
Triage Tags, 10 (opt.)
Notepad, Pencil
Cold Packs, 4 (opt.)
Hot Packs, 4 (opt.)
BP Cuff, Stethoscope (opt).
Bandage Scissors (opt).
Forceps (opt).
Utility Scissors
Penlight
ADVANCED EQUIPMENT
Litter, stokes or folding
Spotlight, vehicle
Cyalume Lightsticks
Global Positioning System
Tape Recorder
Public Address System
Radiological Monitoring Kit
Night Vision Devices
Nylon Rope, 1/2"x100'
Generator/light Set
URBAN DF TEAM EQUIPMENT LIST
Vehicle-Mounted FM transceiver, Handheld
FM transceiver, or Cellular Phone
Signal Panels, (2'x6'), 6 (Optional)
Camera with film (instant pref
erred, 35mm acceptable, Optional)
Appropriate local Maps and Charts
Ground and UDFT Task Guide
Flashlight with spare batteries
Spare Notepad with pens/pencils
Direction Finding Unit With Antennas
1/4 Wave Vehicle Antenna
Rubber Or Telescoping Antenna
Spare Batteries for DF unit
and Tools To Install Them
Global Positioning System (Optional)


PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

JeffDG

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on April 15, 2014, 06:09:59 AM
What I'm gathering is that not having enough peeps at each squadron to form a team is the primary driving force for the pool concept.

I wouldn't necessarily agree.

The pool concept should be used sometimes.  The issue is when the fecal matter hits the oscillating blades, you're going to end up without all the resources that you train with.  Leaders need practice and experience in forming ad hoc organizations, and recognizing specific skillsets in their team members, even if they've only just met them a few minutes ago.

While having a team that exercises together is nice, I wouldn't expect to be able to perform actual operations with such a team.  Disaster situations tend to scramble such plans rather rapidly and thoroughly, and if all you've ever done is work with one team, you're another step behind the curve in adapting to the situation.

Semper gumby.

Eclipse

#12
Quote from: lordmonar on April 15, 2014, 07:46:38 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2014, 05:34:09 AM
This "list" doesn't exactly require a sherpa.

O-0006 17-MAR-04
GROUND TEAM EQUIPMENT LIST
MANDATORY EQUIPMENT
Vehicle- Mounted FM transceiver
Handheld FM transceiver
Signal Panels, (2'x6'), 6
Water, 5 gallons
Blood Borne Pathogen Kit (s)
Shovel/E-Tool
Camera with film (instant preferred, 35mm
acceptable)

The only "mandatory" items on the O-0006 list are above.  Again, not exactly an onerous list.

I have no doubt, though, that there are some GTLs out there with Polaroid or 35mm instant cameras in their gear.

CAP really REALLY needs to update this curriculum.

"That Others May Zoom"

Garibaldi

Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2014, 12:55:37 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 15, 2014, 07:46:38 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2014, 05:34:09 AM
This "list" doesn't exactly require a sherpa.

O-0006 17-MAR-04
GROUND TEAM EQUIPMENT LIST
MANDATORY EQUIPMENT
Vehicle- Mounted FM transceiver
Handheld FM transceiver
Signal Panels, (2'x6'), 6
Water, 5 gallons
Blood Borne Pathogen Kit (s)
Shovel/E-Tool
Camera with film (instant preferred, 35mm
acceptable)

The only "mandatory" items on the O-0006 list are above.  Again, not exactly an onerous list.

I have no doubt, though, that there are some GTLs out there with Polaroid or 35mm instant cameras in their gear.

CAP really REALLY needs to update this curriculum.

I have a large camera on a wood tripod that requires a powder flash. It takes up a lot of space in the wagon.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

THRAWN

Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2014, 12:55:37 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 15, 2014, 07:46:38 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2014, 05:34:09 AM
This "list" doesn't exactly require a sherpa.

O-0006 17-MAR-04
GROUND TEAM EQUIPMENT LIST
MANDATORY EQUIPMENT
Vehicle- Mounted FM transceiver
Handheld FM transceiver
Signal Panels, (2'x6'), 6
Water, 5 gallons
Blood Borne Pathogen Kit (s)
Shovel/E-Tool
Camera with film (instant preferred, 35mm
acceptable)

The only "mandatory" items on the O-0006 list are above.  Again, not exactly an onerous list.

I have no doubt, though, that there are some GTLs out there with Polaroid or 35mm instant cameras in their gear.

CAP really REALLY needs to update this curriculum.

Film? Like tape? In all seriousness, find out what would be an acceptable medium to investigators, at all levels of government, in your area. Some juristictions just plain distrust digital photos. With the availability of digital manipulation software, they have a point. Not saying it's difficult to manipulate a film print, but it's good to know what will be acceptable from a legal stand point. Take a course in crime scene/accident investigation photography. Just whipping out the cell phone and snapping a bunch of pics might be useless, unless you know what you're shooting. It doesn't take a lot of time to learn, but it is a good practice and will save you and the investigations team a lot of headaches in the long run. something like this: http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/fet-ol.html is a good start...
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Garibaldi

Quote from: THRAWN on April 15, 2014, 01:43:15 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2014, 12:55:37 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 15, 2014, 07:46:38 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2014, 05:34:09 AM
This "list" doesn't exactly require a sherpa.

O-0006 17-MAR-04
GROUND TEAM EQUIPMENT LIST
MANDATORY EQUIPMENT
Vehicle- Mounted FM transceiver
Handheld FM transceiver
Signal Panels, (2'x6'), 6
Water, 5 gallons
Blood Borne Pathogen Kit (s)
Shovel/E-Tool
Camera with film (instant preferred, 35mm
acceptable)

The only "mandatory" items on the O-0006 list are above.  Again, not exactly an onerous list.

I have no doubt, though, that there are some GTLs out there with Polaroid or 35mm instant cameras in their gear.

CAP really REALLY needs to update this curriculum.

Film? Like tape? In all seriousness, find out what would be an acceptable medium to investigators, at all levels of government, in your area. Some juristictions just plain distrust digital photos. With the availability of digital manipulation software, they have a point. Not saying it's difficult to manipulate a film print, but it's good to know what will be acceptable from a legal stand point. Take a course in crime scene/accident investigation photography. Just whipping out the cell phone and snapping a bunch of pics might be useless, unless you know what you're shooting. It doesn't take a lot of time to learn, but it is a good practice and will save you and the investigations team a lot of headaches in the long run. something like this: http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/fet-ol.html is a good start...

When I worked for AT&T part of our mandatory gear was a disposable 35mm camera that was to be used if we were in an accident. We HAD to use up all the shots available, and the manager would come and take digital photos. Not sure why we couldn't take photos with our issued iPhones, but I guess they needed hard copies that were unalterable. I can see Thrawn's point, but who has the time to manipulate photos in the field? And more to the point, why? The GTL would be the only person to take "official" photos anyway. Cadets would be too busy taking selfies. "Me at my first crash site! Duckface!"

On reflection, I think I can see a problem. Social media. Cadets would be so interested in posting crash site photos as soon as they were in range of a cell tower that all kinds of propriety would go out the window. Even Cadet Joe sharing photos with Cadet Bob via text could end up in the inbox of a TV news producer or a reporter. GTL says "No pics!" and that is an open invitation for mayhem. "Oh, we were just fooling around. I didn't see the dessicated body in the background when I sent the pic to my TV news reporter brother. Oh, well."
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

lordmonar

So....back to my original question.

If it is a wing pool.....who is responsible for bringing the "team" gear?

Who's got the ELPER?
Who's got the VAN?
Who's got the radios?

And yes.....CAP needs to update the list a bit......but that's another argument.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on April 15, 2014, 02:09:39 PM
Who's got the ELPER?
Who's got the VAN?
Who's got the radios?

The people who have them, and in many cases, they might not even be involved in ES.

It seems to work itself out.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: Garibaldi on April 15, 2014, 02:06:13 PM
When I worked for AT&T part of our mandatory gear was a disposable 35mm camera that was to be used if we were in an accident. We HAD to use up all the shots available, and the manager would come and take digital photos. Not sure why we couldn't take photos with our issued iPhones, but I guess they needed hard copies that were unalterable. I can see Thrawn's point, but who has the time to manipulate photos in the field? And more to the point, why? The GTL would be the only person to take "official" photos anyway. Cadets would be too busy taking selfies. "Me at my first crash site! Duckface!"

On reflection, I think I can see a problem. Social media. Cadets would be so interested in posting crash site photos as soon as they were in range of a cell tower that all kinds of propriety would go out the window. Even Cadet Joe sharing photos with Cadet Bob via text could end up in the inbox of a TV news producer or a reporter. GTL says "No pics!" and that is an open invitation for mayhem. "Oh, we were just fooling around. I didn't see the dessicated body in the background when I sent the pic to my TV news reporter brother. Oh, well."

If only it was just the cadets.  I am frequently disappointed, but no longer surprised, by the number of adults who seem
incapable of following simple rules about photos.  Bad enough to take them, but posting them is just literal stupidity.
Up at the Navy base, we hammer the "no photos" rule, yet every year there's some goof who just can't restrain himself
from a selfie, etc., and it gets back to us through some embarrassing channel.

To the point about cameras, we're not an investigating agency, so we're not charged with gathering evidence. 
If photos we happen to have are helpful, so be it, but I wouldn't get tied up in knots about "chains of evidence", etc., unless
you've been formally tasked with doing something official, which is unlikely.

CAP points at the big smokey thing and then gets out of the way.

"That Others May Zoom"

THRAWN

Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2014, 02:19:45 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on April 15, 2014, 02:06:13 PM
When I worked for AT&T part of our mandatory gear was a disposable 35mm camera that was to be used if we were in an accident. We HAD to use up all the shots available, and the manager would come and take digital photos. Not sure why we couldn't take photos with our issued iPhones, but I guess they needed hard copies that were unalterable. I can see Thrawn's point, but who has the time to manipulate photos in the field? And more to the point, why? The GTL would be the only person to take "official" photos anyway. Cadets would be too busy taking selfies. "Me at my first crash site! Duckface!"

On reflection, I think I can see a problem. Social media. Cadets would be so interested in posting crash site photos as soon as they were in range of a cell tower that all kinds of propriety would go out the window. Even Cadet Joe sharing photos with Cadet Bob via text could end up in the inbox of a TV news producer or a reporter. GTL says "No pics!" and that is an open invitation for mayhem. "Oh, we were just fooling around. I didn't see the dessicated body in the background when I sent the pic to my TV news reporter brother. Oh, well."

If only it was just the cadets.  I am frequently disappointed, but no longer surprised, by the number of adults who seem
incapable of following simple rules about photos.  Bad enough to take them, but posting them is just literal stupidity.
Up at the Navy base, we hammer the "no photos" rule, yet every year there's some goof who just can't restrain himself
from a selfie, etc., and it gets back to us through some embarrassing channel.

To the point about cameras, we're not an investigating agency, so we're not charged with gathering evidence. 
If photos we happen to have are helpful, so be it, but I wouldn't get tied up in knots about "chains of evidence", etc., unless
you've been formally tasked with doing something official, which is unlikely.

CAP points at the big smokey thing and then gets out of the way.

WHAT?!!? NO! We do search and rescue! We have Rangers! We do 85% of all search and resue in America! We sank a submarine!

Lots of truth in the big smoky thing comment. We may not be specifically charged with gathering evidence, and in most cases the I-team will use what we present. My point being, in some places, it's an exercise in administrative self pleasure if you are taking photos that don't meet the standard or medium.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023