Corporate uniforms and customs and courtesies

[JoeTomasone]

The salute is initiated by someone of junior rank and grade, and returned by the senior. The senior drops the salute first. Position is not a factor -- if it was, wouldn't the commanders of USCENTCOM or USSOCOM, both four-star generals, salute the bird-colonel commander of the 6 ARW, who's the base commander at MacDill?

Point of order -- the Base Commander is not in the chain of command of the CENTCOM/SOCOM commanders.   But we have Lt. Col. Squadron Commanders who should and do salute their Group Commander, a Major. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The salute is initiated by someone of junior rank and grade, and returned by the senior. The senior drops the salute first. Position is not a factor -- if it was, wouldn't the commanders of USCENTCOM or USSOCOM, both four-star generals, salute the bird-colonel commander of the 6 ARW, who's the base commander at MacDill?

Point of order -- the Base Commander is not in the chain of command of the CENTCOM/SOCOM commanders.   But we have Lt. Col. Squadron Commanders who should and do salute their Group Commander, a Major. 

The point I was trying to make is that salutes are given based on grade, not on occupation. The example I reached for may not have been quite the same, but the base commander has responsibility for everything on the base, so by that standard, I reached for the comparison.

[brasda91]

(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are
formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.

Of course, you never initiate a salute to someone junior to you, but that goes in any situation....

Why not? I salute my 1Lt commander all the time. My Major DOR predates her joined date. No biggie. Goes with the territory of being a commander.

YMMV.

Why not?  Because you are a Major.  Staff positions do not receive the salute.  The grade is saluted.  I wouldn't expect any of my Lt Col's to salute me.  I may be the commander, but that is just an administrative position.

[Eclipse]

I wouldn't expect any of my Lt Col's to salute me.  I may be the commander, but that is just an administrative position.

"Commander" is neither a staff nor an administrative position, they are the only person in the room who has the final say, can terminate membership, and say "Yes" or "No" with a period on the end of the sentence.  They are the only people in the room who have personal responsibility for everyone else in that room.

Saluting one on that basis is not inappropriate and required when reporting.

In all other cases I would agree the shoulder wins, however when bringing a room to attention, or when a subordinate is reporting to a commander, the subordinate should salute the commander, regardless of grade.

Otherwise you're setting up a situation where a 1st Lt. CC should come to attention when a Major subordinate enters a room to be disciplined?  I don't think so.

In every situation, there is only one Commander, and teaching our people to salute based on shoulder, with the exception of a commander, is not going to break anything, and in turn if the commanders are doing the same thing, then at most you'll have commanders saluting each other (not a bad thing), and in the cases of subordinates, the salutes initiated at the same time.

[Timbo]

^ Umm....no?!?

The Commander is the Commander....yes, but he or she still salutes those that wear grade insignia that is superior to their own. 

So unless their is a policy at your unit that the SQD CC gets the room called to attention for him or her no matter who else is in the room, it should be the reverse of everything you typed.

CAP is weird that rank and grade have been mismanaged through the years to a point that it is reverse of what actually happens in the military. 

The 1st Lt would always salute the the Lt Col on the street when passing, and they would still call them sir or Ma'am, why not in the situation you described. 

My advice....lets not try to mix the "CAP Way" with the "Real World Military Way", it just confuses people!  

[Gunner C]

Once upon a time, I was offered command of Headquarters Company, US Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School.  (Turned it down - I couldn't afford to loose HALO and SCUBA pay).  Among the members of that unit were two general officers, four colonels, and a boat-load of lieutenant colonels.  Trust me, even tho I would have been their commander, none of them would have saluted and I would have been doing the standing when the general came in.

This pseudo-system we have in CAP where anyone can be the commander regardless of rank is dumb, but thinking that a lieutenant outranking a major is a good idea is unreal.  No wonder so many people want to get rid of rank/grade in CAP.  If it doesn't mean anything, then why does saluting superiors mean anything?

Gunner

[DG]

At Katrina, the Command Chief Master Sargeant for the 1st Air Force put an image into my head I will never forget.

As he stepped from my GA-8 after a flight from Navy N'Orleans to Hagler AAF at Camp Shelby in Hattiesburg.

A CAP 1LT in an Air Force style CAP uniform was there to greet him and to help open the door for him to assist if possible in his exit from the aircraft.

Immediately after stepping from the GA-8, stepping down from the right front seat to the ground, the Command Chief snapped a salute to the CAP 1LT in the most professional and impressive manner and form I have ever seen.

And the CAP 1LT (a good kid attending college at Auburn University) returned the salute.  To the Command Chief.

I don't think that the 1LT or I or anyone witnessing that professional display of customs and courtesies that day, will ever forget it.

[Timbo]

^ Thats Cool!  You will find many in the military will salute CAP Officers, either out of respect or because "it is just another Officer".  That is why I find it so disgusting that so many CAP members will go out of their way to tell the enlisted people "oh you don't have to salute me or anyone else in CAP", while at the same time not returning the salute.  That is both disrespectful to the enlisted person who saluted the CAP member and to all CAP members, and makes that CAP member come off as a jerk.

If you find someone in the military saluting you (as a CAP Officer) just return it, and think they are saluting you because you are volunteering your time to do things many other people in this world get paid to do.

Back to Corporate uniforms and Customs and Courtesies.......stop be lazy and do what is expected from even the newest Cadet.  Act like you are in the AF Auxiliary, if you don't want to do those fancy customs and courtesies things......you can always non-renewal and join the Boy Scouts or Coast Guard AUX who do them very infrequently.       

[JoeTomasone]

^ Thats Cool!  You will find many in the military will salute CAP Officers, either out of respect or because "it is just another Officer".  That is why I find it so disgusting that so many CAP members will go out of their way to tell the enlisted people "oh you don't have to salute me or anyone else in CAP", while at the same time not returning the salute.  That is both disrespectful to the enlisted person who saluted the CAP member and to all CAP members, and makes that CAP member come off as a jerk.

If you find someone in the military saluting you (as a CAP Officer) just return it, and think they are saluting you because you are volunteering your time to do things many other people in this world get paid to do.

Back to Corporate uniforms and Customs and Courtesies.......stop be lazy and do what is expected from even the newest Cadet.  Act like you are in the AF Auxiliary, if you don't want to do those fancy customs and courtesies things......you can always non-renewal and join the Boy Scouts or Coast Guard AUX who do them very infrequently.       

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Gunner C]

^ Thats Cool!  You will find many in the military will salute CAP Officers, either out of respect or because "it is just another Officer".  That is why I find it so disgusting that so many CAP members will go out of their way to tell the enlisted people "oh you don't have to salute me or anyone else in CAP", while at the same time not returning the salute.  That is both disrespectful to the enlisted person who saluted the CAP member and to all CAP members, and makes that CAP member come off as a jerk.

If you find someone in the military saluting you (as a CAP Officer) just return it, and think they are saluting you because you are volunteering your time to do things many other people in this world get paid to do.

Back to Corporate uniforms and Customs and Courtesies.......stop be lazy and do what is expected from even the newest Cadet.  Act like you are in the AF Auxiliary, if you don't want to do those fancy customs and courtesies things......you can always non-renewal and join the Boy Scouts or Coast Guard AUX who do them very infrequently.       

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Ditto!

Two years ago at the Wreaths Across America I had Marine NCOs saluting me right and left.  They were doing it because they were proud to be Marines.  I was returning them because I appreciate their service and sacrifice.  I don't think that any of us lost anything and gained a great deal.

Gunner

[citizensoldier]

Coming back to the CAP after nearly twenty years the whole polo shirt thing has been an adjustment.  I tend towards BDUs or Blues once I procure some.  To my mind it has been the move towards more "civilian" looking uniforms that has accelerated this whole confused state.  It is like the rank for senior members has become "Hey look how cool I am" and not a means of knowing who is in charge hence my choice to retain my NCO rank.

CS

[Timbo]

Coming back to the CAP after nearly twenty years the whole polo shirt thing has been an adjustment.  I tend toward BDUs or Blues once I procure some.  To my mind it has been the move toward more "civilian" looking uniforms that has accelerated this whole confused state.  It is like the rank for senior members has become "Hey look how cool I am" and not a means of knowing who is in charge hence my choice to retain my NCO rank.

CS

The group that want less military stuff in CAP seems to be taking over.  It will self correct.  First we need to get the customs and courtesies pamphlet turned into a reg. 

It is sad to see Cadets expected of one thing and those Officers that are there to instruct them do something totally different or not at all.  Polo shirts have no place walking around in front of Cadets EVER.  Unless the Cadets are also wearing a polo for a very special circumstance.   

[citizensoldier]

Coming back to the CAP after nearly twenty years the whole polo shirt thing has been an adjustment.  I tend toward BDUs or Blues once I procure some.  To my mind it has been the move toward more "civilian" looking uniforms that has accelerated this whole confused state.  It is like the rank for senior members has become "Hey look how cool I am" and not a means of knowing who is in charge hence my choice to retain my NCO rank.

CS

The group that want less military stuff in CAP seems to be taking over.  It will self correct.  First we need to get the customs and courtesies pamphlet turned into a reg. 

It is sad to see Cadets expected of one thing and those Officers that are there to instruct them do something totally different or not at all.  Polo shirts have no place walking around in front of Cadets EVER.  Unless the Cadets are also wearing a polo for a very special circumstance.   

I am totally with you.  I am only one of two senior members in our squadron who wears BDUs regularly.  It is just me and the 2LT who works with the cadets.  The other senior members show up in polos and charcoal slacks.  The 2LT and I are drawing a line in the sand and trying to lead from the front around the cadets.

CS

[Smokey]

It still amazes me that on page 5 we have folks still trying to figure out how they can avoid saluting someone.   

What is it with these folks???

You don't want to salute....just wear only your underwear.  It's just about as silly as a discussion on how to avoid saluting.

[citizensoldier]

It still amazes me that on page 5 we have folks still trying to figure out how they can avoid saluting someone.   

What is it with these folks???

You don't want to salute....just wear only your underwear.  It's just about as silly as a discussion on how to avoid saluting.

I know.  I just wanted to know what the standard is.

CS