Corporate uniforms and customs and courtesies

[davidsinn]

Cadets All CAP members in Military style uniforms(everything but the polo), are subject to Military Customs and Courtesies.

There fixed it for you 

[MIKE]

Cadets All CAP members in Military style uniforms(everything but the polo), are subject to Military Customs and Courtesies.

There fixed it for you 

False.

[brasda91]

As for C&C, I have a common sense approach that carries over from my AD days - no hat, no salute. If I, in my hatless corporate uniforms, receive a salute, I will return it, but I neither expect, nor initiate salutes w/o a hat.

YMMV.

I remember years ago my grandfather telling me when he was a Marine, if an officer was outside with several enlisted men, a lot of times they would remove their cap so they wouldn't be saluted time and time again.

That doesn't apply today.  Regardless of whether or not you're wearing a cap, you salute those officers senior in grade to you.

[davidsinn]

Cadets All CAP members in Military style uniforms(everything but the polo), are subject to Military Customs and Courtesies.

There fixed it for you 

False.

Which part? That we are all subject to customs and courtesies or my definition of which uniforms it applies to? I realize I left out the blazer which it does not apply to but it's not a common uniform.

[MIKE]

From page 1: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6074.msg115099#msg115099

[davidsinn]

From page 1: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6074.msg115099#msg115099

Ok I see where you are coming from but I disagree. That merely states the policy for the new uniforms and says nothing of the old ones. If you are wearing rank you should practice C&C just as if you are in AF blue. The only exception I can see is the blazer uniform which is nothing more than a sports coat anyway.

[MIKE]

Therein lies my problem with your argument, since CAPP 151 doesn't cover CAP distinctive uniforms as they exist today (only as they did in 1989), and the ICL only covers the Corporate Uniform... All you have left is your opinion.

[SarDragon]

As for C&C, I have a common sense approach that carries over from my AD days - no hat, no salute. If I, in my hatless corporate uniforms, receive a salute, I will return it, but I neither expect, nor initiate salutes w/o a hat.

YMMV.

I remember years ago my grandfather telling me when he was a Marine, if an officer was outside with several enlisted men, a lot of times they would remove their cap so they wouldn't be saluted time and time again.

That doesn't apply today.  Regardless of whether or not you're wearing a cap, you salute those officers senior in grade to you.

Where's the rule book that covers that?

A review of USA, USAF, USN, and USMC D&C and uniform regs shows essentially consistent policy for the following:

Headgear is worn only outdoors, with specified exceptions. Salutes are rendered only outdoors, with specified exceptions. It follows, IMHO, that you do not render salutes when not covered. Since most corporate uniforms do not have headgear, salutes are not rendered.

The blazer uniform does have rank insignia on the nametag. I have never seen salutes rendered on a routine basis by its wearers, except in specified situations. This, to me, sets a precedent for the remainder of the hatless corporate uniforms.

YMMV.

[DC]

I don't salute if they are not wearing a uniform cap (I say that because baseball caps seem to be common with white/greys...) , and that is what I teach my cadets.

So: TPU - Salute
      White/Grey - No Salute
      Blazer - No Salute
I'm not going to list all of the possiblities, but you see where I am going.

The one exception to this is Mess Dress, which does not have any headgear, but is a USAF style uniform.

[AlphaSigOU]

The one exception to this is Mess Dress, which does not have any headgear, but is a USAF style uniform.

Salutes are not required with mess dress since there is no headgear prescribed, but are highly encouraged.

Just remember, when in doubt, pop one off!

[davidsinn]

I don't salute if they are not wearing a uniform cap (I say that because baseball caps seem to be common with white/greys...) , and that is what I teach my cadets.

So: TPU - Salute
      White/Grey - No Salute
      Blazer - No Salute
I'm not going to list all of the possiblities, but you see where I am going.

The one exception to this is Mess Dress, which does not have any headgear, but is a USAF style uniform.

What about the BBDU? It does not require a hat but I've always seen it worn with one.

[JoeTomasone]

As for C&C, I have a common sense approach that carries over from my AD days - no hat, no salute. If I, in my hatless corporate uniforms, receive a salute, I will return it, but I neither expect, nor initiate salutes w/o a hat.

YMMV.

I remember years ago my grandfather telling me when he was a Marine, if an officer was outside with several enlisted men, a lot of times they would remove their cap so they wouldn't be saluted time and time again.

That doesn't apply today.  Regardless of whether or not you're wearing a cap, you salute those officers senior in grade to you.

Where's the rule book that covers that?

CAPP 151, which says when you salute and when you do not salute.

A review of USA, USAF, USN, and USMC D&C and uniform regs shows essentially consistent policy for the following:

Headgear is worn only outdoors, with specified exceptions. Salutes are rendered only outdoors, with specified exceptions.

We follow CIVIL AIR PATROL regulations, but they are consistent here.

It follows, IMHO, that you do not render salutes when not covered. Since most corporate uniforms do not have headgear, salutes are not rendered.

And that is both an unreasonable thread of logic and inconsistent with CAPP 151, which says that you salute when in military-style uniform. 

Your logic is akin to this:

Pilots wear flight suits.   Pilots fly airplanes.  Therefore, anyone in a flight suit can fly an airplane.

The blazer uniform does have rank insignia on the nametag. I have never seen salutes rendered on a routine basis by its wearers, except in specified situations. This, to me, sets a precedent for the remainder of the hatless corporate uniforms.

YMMV.

And I would disagree.   CAPM 39-1 (Table 4-8. CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform -- pp. 87) states which uniforms are equivalent to USAF uniforms, and the only one left out (besides the not-yet-created Corporate uniform) is the Golf shirt.    That also happens to be the only uniform on which no grade insignia is worn IIRC, although you have the OPTION not to wear it on the Blazer.

Just because someone is not acting in accordance with regulations doesn't mean that there is a precedent by which you can or should ignore said regulation.   I ALWAYS see members, cadet and senior, leave their BDU caps on tables, or tuck them in the rolled sleeve, etc.   This is against regulations (must be stowed in cargo pocket on BDU pants), but just because a lot of people are doing it doesn't mean that somehow the regulation is not in effect.   Rather, it provides an opportunity to assist said member(s) in learning the proper regulation so that it can be followed.

[JoeTomasone]

Cadets All CAP members in Military style uniforms(everything but the polo), are subject to Military Customs and Courtesies.

There fixed it for you 

Not accurate either.  Members in polo shirts are still required to observe customs and courtesies but are NOT required to salute.    They still must use sir/ma'am and address members with the proper titles, etc.

[davidsinn]

Cadets All CAP members in Military style uniforms(everything but the polo), are subject to Military Customs and Courtesies.

There fixed it for you 

Not accurate either.  Members in polo shirts are still required to observe customs and courtesies but are NOT required to salute.    They still must use sir/ma'am and address members with the proper titles, etc.

You have a point and are correct but this thread was about salutes and similar actions.

[JoeTomasone]

You have a point and are correct but this thread was about salutes and similar actions.

Okay, I'll bite -- what "similar actions"?

[davidsinn]

You have a point and are correct but this thread was about salutes and similar actions.

Okay, I'll bite -- what "similar actions"?

OK you got me  I probably shouldn't have put that. I was trying to not be too specific and box myself into a corner and it backfired.

[billford1]

Cadets All CAP members in Military style uniforms(everything but the polo), are subject to Military Customs and Courtesies.

There fixed it for you 

You didn't fix it for me. You fixed it for you. This whole thing about not saluting seniors not in the Military Uniform is counterproductive regardless of what the CAP Pamphlet says. I was a member in a SC Sqn in 2003. There the Cadets all saluted me except a Cadet Major who absolutely refused. I didn't make an issue about it. I'm in a different state now and most Cadets salute me and I've even had Soldiers salute me. Why is this an issue?

[SarDragon]

It follows, IMHO, that you do not render salutes when not covered. Since most corporate uniforms do not have headgear, salutes are not rendered.

And that is both an unreasonable thread of logic and inconsistent with CAPP 151, which says that you salute when in military-style uniform. 

Your logic is akin to this:

Pilots wear flight suits.   Pilots fly airplanes.  Therefore, anyone in a flight suit can fly an airplane.

Nope. You said it all - military style uniform. How many militery uniforms do not have headgear? AFAIK, only the mess dress. Folks in mess dress do not usually exchange salutes. I think my logic still holds up.

The blazer uniform does have rank insignia on the nametag. I have never seen salutes rendered on a routine basis by its wearers, except in specified situations. This, to me, sets a precedent for the remainder of the hatless corporate uniforms.

YMMV.

And I would disagree.   CAPM 39-1 (Table 4-8. CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform -- pp. 87) states which uniforms are equivalent to USAF uniforms, and the only one left out (besides the not-yet-created Corporate uniform) is the Golf shirt.    That also happens to be the only uniform on which no grade insignia is worn IIRC, although you have the OPTION not to wear it on the Blazer.

Now we're just talking about equivalencies. That's like telling an Army guy he needs to wear Class A's to an AF event where the UOD is Service Dress. Has nothing to do directly with C&C.

I have presented my ideas, and will now stop. We're in the dead horse arena now, and nothing either one of us says will change the other's mind, so I'm outta here.

[Pumbaa]

[Gunner C]

I am in a Senior Squadron, and we have all different ranks Capt's, Lt.Col's etc.. I don't believe we need to salute everyone. I understand that if you are reporting to the Commander in his office, and you are in uniform, you would render the appropriate motion on entering his officer and snapping a salute......am I correct?

No.  You need to salute everyone who is superior to you in grade.  If you're a SMWOG, or have chosen to wear your
NCO stripes from another service instead of accepting CAP grade, that's everyone.

And if they give you any guff about "this ain't the military" make a point to salute them every time.

The unit designation doesn't relieve courtesies and cause issues when the GOB's try and participate outside the hanger.

:clap: