Corporate uniforms and customs and courtesies

Started by citizensoldier, September 22, 2008, 01:49:54 AM

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citizensoldier

When I was a cadet in the late 80's they were not a major factor as I never saw them worn.  Now the squadron I am joining has alot of people who wear them.  Do you still salute those who have them on or is it more informal.  This squadron is very laid back from what I have seen so far. 

Thanks,

CS
Mt. Hood Composite Squadron 1987-1989
SSG Stillwater Composite Squadron 2008-2009
SSGBroken Arrow Composite Squadron FEB 2009-Present
SGT OKARNG 08 APR 1988-23 JUN 2009

Eclipse

Yes, internal to CAP, member wearing corporate uniforms are rendered the same courtesies, no matter what
uniform they are wearing.

"That Others May Zoom"

Major Carrales

As far as I'm concerned, we salute the individual and not so much the uniform (I mean that in I respect the person and the uniform).  As a form of respect for our fellows.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

citizensoldier

Quote from: Eclipse on September 22, 2008, 02:02:10 AM
Yes, internal to CAP, member wearing corporate uniforms are rendered the same courtesies, no matter what
uniform they are wearing.

Thats what I was hoping was the case.  Id'ing rank is a pain in the 4th point of contact when they are wearing a polo.  Luckily for now everyone will outrank me and I can fire and forget. 
Mt. Hood Composite Squadron 1987-1989
SSG Stillwater Composite Squadron 2008-2009
SSGBroken Arrow Composite Squadron FEB 2009-Present
SGT OKARNG 08 APR 1988-23 JUN 2009

citizensoldier

Thanks for the fast responses folks.  It seems our senior members mostly ghost in early and leave late so you don't always catch them outside.  They also seem very informal compared to our cadets.  I am trying to guage my reactions a bit coming from the Army side of things.
Mt. Hood Composite Squadron 1987-1989
SSG Stillwater Composite Squadron 2008-2009
SSGBroken Arrow Composite Squadron FEB 2009-Present
SGT OKARNG 08 APR 1988-23 JUN 2009

BuckeyeDEJ

If they're in a polo/golf shirt, without either a visible indication of grade or personal knowledge, I don't salute unless I know what their grade is.

I would not expect a salute if I'm not in a uniform displaying my grade, nor, frankly, should I.

Sometimes, when I'm in civvies, I get salutes from members of my unit -- it's a personal courtesy/gesture, and it's appreciated and returned, because it's a sign of respect and camaraderie from unit members. But again, that salute is not expected when I'm out of uniform.

My personal opinion: If the rank doesn't mean so much to you that you would wear a uniform in a paramilitary organization that relies on some measure of rank, grade and authority, you shouldn't get a salute. Wear your rank and it will be recognized.



CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

citizensoldier

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 22, 2008, 04:04:14 AM
If they're in a polo/golf shirt, without either a visible indication of grade or personal knowledge, I don't salute unless I know what their grade is.

I would not expect a salute if I'm not in a uniform displaying my grade, nor, frankly, should I.

Sometimes, when I'm in civvies, I get salutes from members of my unit -- it's a personal courtesy/gesture, and it's appreciated and returned, because it's a sign of respect and camaraderie from unit members. But again, that salute is not expected when I'm out of uniform.

My personal opinion: If the rank doesn't mean so much to you that you would wear a uniform in a paramilitary organization that relies on some measure of rank, grade and authority, you shouldn't get a salute. Wear your rank and it will be recognized.



That makes sense.  I just remember more of the days when everyone wore the military uniform.
Mt. Hood Composite Squadron 1987-1989
SSG Stillwater Composite Squadron 2008-2009
SSGBroken Arrow Composite Squadron FEB 2009-Present
SGT OKARNG 08 APR 1988-23 JUN 2009

Major Carrales

On golf shirts I wish only the personalize one was authorized, it makes working with people happen "faster" to be able to see their name and grade.

As to salutes, I will go with what was written in an above post...If I recognize a person of grade I will render salutes out of respect.  But with no name nor grade, how can one do that?
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

SarDragon

Grade is not worn on the personalized polo shirts, only name and specialty.

As for C&C, I have a common sense approach that carries over from my AD days - no hat, no salute. If I, in my hatless corporate uniforms, receive a salute, I will return it, but I neither expect, nor initiate salutes w/o a hat.

YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

MIKE

I found it!

Quote from: CAP/CC Letter, 25 Jan 08g. Customs and Courtesies in the Corporate Uniform. Effective
20 November 2006, the NEC clarified the policy concerning customs and courtesies
when wearing either of the new Corporate uniforms. Members wearing the Corporate
Service Coat or the white aviator shirt and blue pants/skirt combination should observe
the same customs and courtesies as members wearing the Air Force-style uniform.
Members will stand at attention for the National Anthem and the presentation of the
colors and will salute superior officers as necessary.

Says nothing of the CAP distinctive uniforms, so I would not infer that it applies to those uniforms as well... Only the TPU.

Personal opinion that will anger many:  There should be Air Force style uniforms and there should be non-military style uniforms that are not the quasi-military uniforms we have now.  Field uniform = Golf shirt and blue BDU trousers, aviator shirts with blazer nametags, blazer... and no saluting.
Mike Johnston

davedove

This question actually came up at our squadron so we looked it up.  Whether or not you salute is determined by what uniform YOU are wearing, not what the other person is wearing.  So, if you are in uniform and see someone with higher grade, you should salute them.

Of course, if you don't recognize the other person who isn't wearing obvious rank insignia, you won't know to salute.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

stratoflyer

The CSU (TPU) is a direct alternative to the AF blues and is rendered the same C&C as the AF blues. Same with the BBBBBDU (there's like 30 different shades of blue on that one).  ::)

But, I just flew with a senior member today who has a son in the cadet program, and was asking me what would be better: golf shirt, or AF style stuff. I said in order to relate better to the cadets, as he is having more and more contact with the cadets in various duties, to go ahead for the AF style stuff.

Same goes with C&C within CAP and senior members: Cadets should render appropriate salutes and seniors should expect it AND set the example by saluting others with AF or CSU wear.

And please, no more first name basis among the seniors while in uniform when cadets are around.
"To infinity, and beyond!"

Eduardo Rodriguez, 2LT, CAP

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: stratoflyer on September 22, 2008, 06:53:35 PM
I just flew with a senior member today who has a son in the cadet program, and was asking me what would be better: golf shirt, or AF style stuff. I said in order to relate better to the cadets, as he is having more and more contact with the cadets in various duties, to go ahead for the AF style stuff.

I believe CAP either encourages or mandates that seniors working with cadets wear the Air Force uniform or the "corporate blues." Someone please clear my memory for me if I'm incorrect.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

jimmydeanno

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 22, 2008, 07:13:17 PM
Quote from: stratoflyer on September 22, 2008, 06:53:35 PM
I just flew with a senior member today who has a son in the cadet program, and was asking me what would be better: golf shirt, or AF style stuff. I said in order to relate better to the cadets, as he is having more and more contact with the cadets in various duties, to go ahead for the AF style stuff.

I believe CAP either encourages or mandates that seniors working with cadets wear the Air Force uniform or the "corporate blues." Someone please clear my memory for me if I'm incorrect.

Seniors working with cadets must wear a uniform.  Doesn't matter what one, just "a uniform."
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

DC

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 22, 2008, 07:13:17 PM
Quote from: stratoflyer on September 22, 2008, 06:53:35 PM
I just flew with a senior member today who has a son in the cadet program, and was asking me what would be better: golf shirt, or AF style stuff. I said in order to relate better to the cadets, as he is having more and more contact with the cadets in various duties, to go ahead for the AF style stuff.

I believe CAP either encourages or mandates that seniors working with cadets wear the Air Force uniform or the "corporate blues." Someone please clear my memory for me if I'm incorrect.
I have never seen an official mandate or 'suggestion', but it really is common sense (yeah, yeah, I know its not that common..). Cadets work better with SMs that adhere to the same standards that the cadets have to.

But, on the same stroke, a cadet is more likely to respect and follow a SM that can look sharp in the golf shirt, rather than a SM the wears blues, but can't seem to do it right.

PHall

Quote from: DC on September 22, 2008, 07:18:59 PM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 22, 2008, 07:13:17 PM
Quote from: stratoflyer on September 22, 2008, 06:53:35 PM
I just flew with a senior member today who has a son in the cadet program, and was asking me what would be better: golf shirt, or AF style stuff. I said in order to relate better to the cadets, as he is having more and more contact with the cadets in various duties, to go ahead for the AF style stuff.

I believe CAP either encourages or mandates that seniors working with cadets wear the Air Force uniform or the "corporate blues." Someone please clear my memory for me if I'm incorrect.
I have never seen an official mandate or 'suggestion', but it really is common sense (yeah, yeah, I know its not that common..). Cadets work better with SMs that adhere to the same standards that the cadets have to.

But, on the same stroke, a cadet is more likely to respect and follow a SM that can look sharp in the golf shirt, rather than a SM the wears blues, but can't seem to do it right.

39-1 just says that a member will wear a "uniform" while conducting or participating in the cadet program.
It does not specify which uniform.

davidsinn

Quote from: PHall on September 22, 2008, 08:04:22 PM
Quote from: DC on September 22, 2008, 07:18:59 PM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 22, 2008, 07:13:17 PM
Quote from: stratoflyer on September 22, 2008, 06:53:35 PM
I just flew with a senior member today who has a son in the cadet program, and was asking me what would be better: golf shirt, or AF style stuff. I said in order to relate better to the cadets, as he is having more and more contact with the cadets in various duties, to go ahead for the AF style stuff.

I believe CAP either encourages or mandates that seniors working with cadets wear the Air Force uniform or the "corporate blues." Someone please clear my memory for me if I'm incorrect.
I have never seen an official mandate or 'suggestion', but it really is common sense (yeah, yeah, I know its not that common..). Cadets work better with SMs that adhere to the same standards that the cadets have to.

But, on the same stroke, a cadet is more likely to respect and follow a SM that can look sharp in the golf shirt, rather than a SM the wears blues, but can't seem to do it right.

39-1 just says that a member will wear a "uniform" while conducting or participating in the cadet program.
It does not specify which uniform.

I would suggest the UOD or corp equivalent (CSU or BBDU)
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

notaNCO forever


Eeyore


notaNCO forever

Thanks, CAP needs a acronym of the day calender.