Air Force inches closer to warrant officers: Could they fix the pilot crisis?

Started by CAP_truth, April 19, 2018, 04:30:19 PM

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CAP_truth


Read this article and wondering how it could effect the future of CAP. I would be happy with the reinstatement of warrant officer grade to senior member program.


https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/04/06/air-force-inches-closer-to-warrant-officers-could-they-fix-the-pilot-crisis/
Cadet CoP
Wilson

goblin

Quote from: CAP_truth on April 19, 2018, 04:30:19 PM

Read this article and wondering how it could effect the future of CAP. I would be happy with the reinstatement of warrant officer grade to senior member program.


https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/04/06/air-force-inches-closer-to-warrant-officers-could-they-fix-the-pilot-crisis/

Won't happen. If it does, it won't help.


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Eclipse

There's no reason to add another meaningless grade to an already muddled structure in CAP.

Bringing aircrew up from the enlisted ranks may open up a new potential group to draw from,
but it doesn't magically create those people out of thin air, and as indicated making them
Warrants just opens other potential issues, though I recall reading one article that indicated
there might be legal issues with whether or non non-comms can shoot to kill in an aircraft,
which was one of the reasons to reconsider warrants.

It's not likely to fix the "pilot crisis", which has as much to do with the economy,
career potential, and social attitudes about the military, as it does with what someone has
ion their shoulder.

When the economy is strong, military careers are less appealing.

What will fix the issue is the new Top Gun movie.

"That Others May Zoom"

etodd

Quote from: Eclipse on April 19, 2018, 06:17:26 PM

What will fix the issue is the new Top Gun movie.

Hollywood's next version of Top Gun may not be like the previous macho movie. I shudder to think what the next one might be like.

With the #metoo movement ... you can't have a pilot having sex with an instructor like the old movie. LOL

The next version may have a transgender as the lead.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Luis R. Ramos

Top Gun? Is not Top Gun for the Navy?

We need one of its own.

What about Air Force, Strategic Command, or A Gathering of Eagles?

Or maybe a new one titled simply Red Flag?
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

SarDragon

The Navy has tried, over the years, to use similar programs for filling the pilot ranks - NAP, AOCS, and LDO Aviator among others - with limited success. One of the limiting reasons was a status bias, similar to that between Academy and ROTC/OCS graduates. I have seen this bias to be even greater in the AF than the Navy, so the WO idea may be doomed from the outset. YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

PHall

Don't know what the Air Force Times is smoking. But as long as the Chiefs Mafia is around there will be no Air Force Warrant Officers.
This idea seems to come up about every 10 years... ::)

lordmonar

The problem with the pilot crisis can be fixed by just disconnecting the idea that pilot=leader.

With the UP or OUT system the AF has.   Pilots have to do stuff to make them promotable. A lot of that stuff does not involve flying.

The fix is to just let pilots fly.   If they don't want to do the other stuff...then let them just stay in rank.

Another possible fix is to just make all the pilots sign up for 20 years! 
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

N6RVT

Quote from: lordmonar on April 20, 2018, 11:03:40 AM
The fix is to just let pilots fly.   If they don't want to do the other stuff...then let them just stay in rank.

In 1980 I went to USAF Navigator school.  I was later caught in a "RIF" and wound up in the Army.  I would have been more than willing to take a reduction to W-2, and it most likely would have been offered to me - if the grade existed.

If the USAF does this the CAP response would probably be to open the existing FO grades to all senior members, and I would be perfectly happy to be one.

lordmonar

Well...that is the real problem.

The Air Force has been constitutionally unable to actually manage their work force.   

Both on O and E side of the house.   

What CAP does will obviously mirror what ever the USAF does.   If they get WO ranks (highly unlikely IMHO) then CAP would get them too eventually.

YMMV
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Shuman 14

Perhaps the need for an independent Air Force is slipping away, maybe the USAF should be disbanded and it's assets and personnel reallocated back to the US Army as the Army Air Corps.

(Ducking now for the incoming rounds!)
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Spam


You'd be surprised at where peoples heads are these days. Just five years ago, I was at the bar with a bunch of senior pilots [from a joint aircraft program] who were seriously debating combining the brown shoe Naval Aviation and USAF pilot communities and doing away with separate air services. These were both Air Force and Navy officers.


I moved a couple of stools down, switched away from what they were drinking, and started eyeing the nearest exit...


Cheers
Spam


Shuman 14

Not a Pilot and not a Warrant Officer, but the vast majority of both, in Army, are in Army Aviation.

The way I understand it that WO have their own Professional Military Education System and they pretty much can keep the same job from WO-1 to CWO-4 without worrying about the up-or-out concept that Commissioned Officers deal with.

CWO-5 slots are more like Command Sergeant Major Billets, they are advisors to Commanders on WO issues.

If you want to do nothing but fly for 20 years, Army Aviation Warrant Officer seems the way to go.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Spam

Agreed, that's my impression based on working with aircrew from all the services; USAF/USN/USMC commissioned pilots are expected to at some point go complete a dept. head tour and then "grow up" (ugh, their sarcastic phrase not mine).

One of my sisters married a 2LT straight out of Ft. Wolters flight school and the other a WO after his 3rd 'Nam tour (got out as a CW4 after Iran) and he did nothing but fly day in and day out with very little non operational work. I work on one project with CW4 and -5s now, and former warrant DAC pilots from the Regiment. They're the (THE) high time technical community experts we use for avionics systems, weapons and tactics, and cockpit design evals (some are even test pilot school grads, and one has several degrees - it isn't like warrants are uneducated boors). We had one O-3 in the sims last week and they were very kind and indulgent of the young man's inputs.

There was a very interesting CSPAN session back in January or so regarding USAF and Army 3 stars giving testimony before the SASC regarding UAV pilot training (with very near peer equipment - Predators and GE's - the Army has had no problems producing pilots, while USAF had a long list of reasons why not). I think I posted a link here on CT...


V/r
Spam





grunt82abn

Quote from: shuman14 on April 20, 2018, 05:20:58 PM
Perhaps the need for an independent Air Force is slipping away, maybe the USAF should be disbanded and it's assets and personnel reallocated back to the US Army as the Army Air Corps.

(Ducking now for the incoming rounds!)
Go Army Air Corps!!!



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Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present

abdsp51

Quote from: grunt82abn on April 21, 2018, 01:35:39 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on April 20, 2018, 05:20:58 PM
Perhaps the need for an independent Air Force is slipping away, maybe the USAF should be disbanded and it's assets and personnel reallocated back to the US Army as the Army Air Corps.

(Ducking now for the incoming rounds!)
Go Army Air Corps!!!



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Will never happen. 

Luis R. Ramos

Oh yeah.

Bring back the Army Air Corps.

Also bring back the following:

B-17
B-25
P-39
P-38
P-40
All the BT, PT, and ATs
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Luis R. Ramos

Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

CAP_truth

I  think the WO grades would be good for mission related personnel who are only interested in ES. This would allow for the upgrade of educational requirements for officer grades. College degree is now required for national commander and vice commander. This will now be moving down to other positions. Unlike FO grades, WO grades would not be only for 18 to 20 year olds. If we had a full enlisted grade program it may be different. My opinion.
Cadet CoP
Wilson

OldGuy

Quote from: CAP_truth on April 21, 2018, 09:54:22 PM
I  think the WO grades would be good for mission related personnel who are only interested in ES. This would allow for the upgrade of educational requirements for officer grades. College degree is now required for national commander and vice commander. This will now be moving down to other positions. Unlike FO grades, WO grades would not be only for 18 to 20 year olds. If we had a full enlisted grade program it may be different. My opinion.
Agreed. I am moving towards ridding the seniors of the USAF uniforms and grades. I get the reasons on both sides, but very much lean towards corporate uniforms these days.