More brand confusion

[RiverAux]

According to the photo and story on Volunteer Now, we may be starting to use the new triangle symbol on our vehicles and it is now being described as the "standard" logo....

In this case it is part of a special "wrap" for a wing vehicle, but apparently was designed by NHQ.

http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays_features.cfm/cap_wrapped_up_in_partnership_with_vanguard?show=news&newsID=6485

Like the planes and the idea, but hate that logo.  I still don't understand why we're using this rather than the logo/symbol used with our uniforms.  Are we going to have this on the command patch now?  Isn't "branding" all about consistency? 

[FW]

The wrap is advertising and will only be on a few vehicles, for now, around the country.  I think it cost's about $3 grand per van.  I think Col Beason was incorrect in his assessment of the "standard logo" statement and, I don't think the wraps will be installed on every new van bought by CAP (about $30,000 per yearly purchase coming out of members' money). 

[PhoenixRisen]

I was never a fan of the new branding style, but it's not too bad (if used only on a few "recruiting" vehicles).  I definitely hope that's not what our operations vehicles turn into, though. 

[arajca]

If they're going to colorize vehicles, make them match the aircraft, except use reflective striping for the red and silver.

[RiverAux]

I didn't want to give the impression they were going to wrap every vehicle, but even if they wrap a few with this logo, but the rest are something else, isn't that even worse from a branding point of view?   It should be all or none. 

[arajca]

Instead that new abomination, they should have stuck with the shield. Wrapping a small number of vehicles is fine, as long as they carry common elements from the organization.

[RADIOMAN015]

The wrap is advertising and will only be on a few vehicles, for now, around the country.  I think it cost's about $3 grand per van.  I think Col Beason was incorrect in his assessment of the "standard logo" statement and, I don't think the wraps will be installed on every new van bought by CAP (about $30,000 per yearly purchase coming out of members' money).

I guess with the implementation of the Wing Bankers program and unqualified audit, CAP must be expecting corporate donors to start lining up to give donations, that of cost could be put to very good use by repainting vehicles with logos/pictures such as this
I think the Public Relations folks at National first need to come out with a comprehensive approved marketing plan, effectively communicated to the entire organization, so that's there's a very good understanding by the membershp of what this is all about.  So far at the squadron much isn't known, and that really where the recruiting and retention of the members occurs.   By far I would hope there's very signficant dollar limits placed on such a plan  and is NOT implementation of pie in the sky ideas by public relations personnel out of touch about the realities of CAP's potential membership as well as donor base.

RM 

[Pumbaa]

We should sponsor a driver in NASCAR!!!  Maybe Danica Patrick! 

[Spike]

The wrap is advertising and will only be on a few vehicles, for now, around the country.  I think it cost's about $3 grand per van.  I think Col Beason was incorrect in his assessment of the "standard logo" statement and, I don't think the wraps will be installed on every new van bought by CAP (about $30,000 per yearly purchase coming out of members' money).

Putting it on a few vehicles is a waste of money.

[FW]

I think the Public Relations folks at National first need to come out with a comprehensive approved marketing plan, effectively communicated to the entire organization, so that's there's a very good understanding by the membershp of what this is all about.  So far at the squadron much isn't known, and that really where the recruiting and retention of the members occurs.   By far I would hope there's very signficant dollar limits placed on such a plan  and is NOT implementation of pie in the sky ideas by public relations personnel out of touch about the realities of CAP's potential membership as well as donor base.

RM 

An excellent comment. :clap:

[RiverAux]

There is actually a national marketing plan though it really needs updating and fleshing out. 

[O-Rex]

I'm  not crazy about the new branding: CIVIL AIR PATROL, Incorporated......

[Cecil DP]

We should sponsor a driver in NASCAR!!!  Maybe Danica Patrick!

We did, only lost $3,000,000 on it that HQ will admit to!

[Strick]

What a joke

[NCRblues]

This may be just me but, I am not sure what this "wrapping" is going to accomplish. I know some will say it will help with recruiting, like the active and reserve recruiters vehicles. BUT we drive these vans (mainly) to cap functions and back, the members there are already recruited. Maybe the people on the highway that see it, maybe. The active and reserve recruiters drive their vehicles to schools and around just to get publicity, something cap just can't do. I just don't see a point to this. Take this money and place it somewhere else, which can be better suited to recruiting.

[wuzafuzz]

The concept of wraps is fine, but I want to hurl every time I see that triangle logo. 

According to article Col Beason "...added that the wing now plans to wrap all new vans as they are acquired."  It's bad enough CAP branding is already fractured in 20 different directions, now each wing may want unique vehicle markings. 

Our branding program (if we even have one) resembles something assembled by ADD folks on an energy drink overdose while sitting in a chair administering random electric shocks.

[NC Hokie]

I didn't want to give the impression they were going to wrap every vehicle, but even if they wrap a few with this logo, but the rest are something else, isn't that even worse from a branding point of view?   It should be all or none.

According to the article, South Dakota Wing DOES plan to wrap all of it's new vans.  Are we at least getting some kind of fleet pricing on these?  I'd hate to think that CAP is paying sticker PLUS three grand each.

I'm  not crazy about the new branding: CIVIL AIR PATROL, Incorporated......

I was going to dispute this until I realized that there's nothing on the van OR in the article that speaks of our relationship with the Air Force.  I DID notice that half of the article is free advertising for Vanguard, including a suggestion to buy more from Vanguard to help fund CAP training facility projects.

If that's what the Vanguard money is for, I think it's fair to ask how rolling a billboard benefits those projects.

[flyerthom]

We should sponsor a driver in NASCAR!!!  Maybe Danica Patrick!

We did, only lost $3,000,000 on it that HQ will admit to!

Pumbaa. Let go of this man's ankle. 

[PA Guy]

It is just plain butt ugly.

[a2capt]

The triangle blows. Period.

We have a really nice looking 'MajCom' logo, we had a round seal logo that itself was deeply related to our history.

Now we have this .. thing, that looks like a funky boomerang.

Yuck.

[PHall]

Wraps have a "shelf life" of about six months. Leave them on much longer and they start looking really bad and they're almost impossible to remove without damaging the paint.
My employer, AT&T, has found this out the hard way...

[High Speed Low Drag]

The concept of wraps is fine, but I want to hurl every time I see that triangle logo. 

According to article Col Beason "...added that the wing now plans to wrap all new vans as they are acquired."  It's bad enough CAP branding is already fractured in 20 different directions, now each wing may want unique vehicle markings. 

Our branding program (if we even have one) resembles something assembled by ADD folks on an energy drink overdose while sitting in a chair administering random electric shocks.

:clap:   !!!!   :clap:  !!!!

When will "they" realize that as far as cadet recruiting goes, the biggest (and only) thing that makes us stand out from other youth programs is our relationship with USAF???  This wrap could have been $$$ towards real recruiting tools, which are severely lacking.  Or even better, that could have been used to "recruit" corporate sponsors.

I agree with the others - That new "logo" is as pretty as a stonefish.

Wait a second - my apologies to the stonefish.  The fish at least has a good reason to look ugly .........

[RiverAux]

What do you think about the part with the plane?  I think that part looks nice. 

[wuzafuzz]

What do you think about the part with the plane?  I think that part looks nice.

I think the part with the plane looks kind of cool.  How long will it look good?  It still doesn't fit in a coherent branding strategy.

Whether our Vanguard purchases should be funding that is another story.  There are so many other useful places our money could go...that list is endless.  To me it looks like thousands of dollars of mission useful gear that will never be purchased. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

The branding using vehicles used only for wing functions is lame.

So is this though:
"For example, in 2007, Vanguard donations helped build a rappelling tower, install shower rooms and contributed to the purchase of a four-wheel-drive Bobcat at CAP's Col. Phillip Neuweiler Ranger Training Facility at Hawk Mountain, Pa."

I don't think NHQ has any idea what branding or mission needs there are.

[A.Member]

The triangle blows. Period.

x2

Simply put, the triangle design is awful.

Don't know who came up with it or why it persists but it needs to be put to rest.   

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the official CAP emblem or the command patch (except that the command patch should be the original "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" version but I'll leave that sleeping dog lie).  Use should be restricted to these two.

[Gunner C]

The triangle blows. Period.

x2

Simply put, the triangle design is awful.

Don't know who came up with it or why it persists put it needs to be put to rest.   

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the official CAP emblem or the command patch (except that the command patch should be the original "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" version but I'll leave that sleeping dog lie).  Use should be restricted to these two.

x3

As was said before, what a waste of money!  I think NHQ could have spent the money of its overcharged members (money from Vanguard came out of our pockets).  Making a cool ride for a wing commander is just about criminal.  WIWA region chief of staff, I had my own vehicle.  Didn't use it much because it was a huge gas hog and I wasn't going to blow my entire travel budget on filling up that beast.  Most of the vehicles assigned to commanders, etc aren't going to be on the road as much as squadron vehicles.  That means the public won't be seeing it enough to justify the cost.  All the way around, it's a bad idea.  Get some grants and put us on TV.  (Sure, that'll happen) 

[A.Member]

Making a cool ride for a wing commander is just about criminal.  WIWA region chief of staff, I had my own vehicle.  Didn't use it much because it was a huge gas hog and I wasn't going to blow my entire travel budget on filling up that beast.  Most of the vehicles assigned to commanders, etc aren't going to be on the road as much as squadron vehicles.  That means the public won't be seeing it enough to justify the cost.  All the way around, it's a bad idea.  Get some grants and put us on TV.  (Sure, that'll happen) 

Agreed.  It could almost make a case for Fraud Waste and Abuse.  Seriously, was this the best use of funds?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

A few quick thoughts:

-- The words "Civil Air Patrol" are not prominent anywhere on that vehicle, just the red prop.
-- Half the tagline, which is a botch job and a mouthful to begin with, also seems to disappear.
-- What was ever wrong with using the seal on the side of CAP vehicles? (Answer: Nothing. Certain things need not be messed with.)
-- The story on the Volunteer Web site seriously needs to be copy edited.

Oh...

-- Dodge Grand Caravan? Doesn't seem as utilitarian to CAP as a larger van.

[Gunner C]

A dodge minivan (and especially the wrap) doesn't exactly say "action/adventure" either.  Nothing there to capture the imagination.  The poster that hooked me when I was 13 was the old poster with the cadets in khakis flying gliders.  That was darned exciting for a kid.  It was a brand that I saw throughout my cadet career, allowing for new uniforms.  There's the same sort of thing from the 1950s that had an SM in an Ike jacket with a cadet with an airplane flying over.  Same sort of imagination catcher - action/adventure.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The Air Force attracts enlistees with decked-out SUVs they call "Raptors," complete with video screens and stereo systems that could blow the best out of the ghetto. Not that we need those, but we don't really need wraps. What we could use is a slew of updated PSAs that NHQ/PA could get out to national media and that PAs in the field could ship out to local TV and radio stations. We could use some updated recruiting brochures with dynamic, professional (not in-house) design and better photography. (Come to think of it: Where is that new cadet recruiting brochure?)

We could use an honorary spokesman, too... maybe someone like Kiefer Sutherland (of 24)? Jerry Lewis was fine in the 1950s, but we could use an action-oriented guy to shill for CAP. Heck, even someone like Jeffrey Donovan (of Burn Notice). Gary Sinise could be a possibility. Chances are, we'd shoot for Tony Shalhoub instead, and everyone thinks of an quirky OCD detective when they see that face on TV....

[Cecil DP]

I like the idea of Jeffrey Donovan, Keifer Sutherland is a Canadian citizen, and Tony Shaloub is a great actor, but a little too quirky in all his roles. (Monk, Antonio from Wings, and an Alien in MIB I and II)

[Nick]

Since we're on the subject of branding, media presence, and all that good stuff... I just found this article.  Dunno if it was discussed elsewhere:

http://gaservesamerica.com/stories/091209hartman.html

[wuzafuzz]

We could use an honorary spokesman, too... maybe someone like Kiefer Sutherland (of 24)? Jerry Lewis was fine in the 1950s, but we could use an action-oriented guy to shill for CAP. Heck, even someone like Jeffrey Donovan (of Burn Notice). Gary Sinise could be a possibility. Chances are, we'd shoot for Tony Shalhoub instead, and everyone thinks of an quirky OCD detective when they see that face on TV....

Why not Janet Jackson?  We have no shortage of wardrobe malfunctions in CAP   

[wuzafuzz]

Since we're on the subject of branding, media presence, and all that good stuff... I just found this article.  Dunno if it was discussed elsewhere:

http://gaservesamerica.com/stories/091209hartman.html

Good press for CAP :-)  Makes me wonder where else we could be marketing ourselves.  Let people know we have flight opportunities, and a lot more!

[JC004]

This has to stop.

[MIGCAP]

About five years ago I had a company in my state offer to provide a wrap for one of the CAP vans in the wing for no charge.  We were to provide the graphics files of our choice and they would design a wrap for CAPs approval, then do the job for nothing. The only catch was that they wanted a small, and tasteful way to put their name, web site, and phone numner on it so we could both win on a marketing effort. They were a start-up and the effort would have been good for both of us. What they wanted was no more than the small logo you see on donated DARE vehicles saying that XYZ car dealer supports DARE.
National HQ said "NO" because the van would not look like the picture of what a CAP vehicle had to look like in the regulations, and besides we could not enter into a partnership with someone that they did not approve of. 
I guess it's a different story when they want to do something. Afraid we have a Not Invented Here syndrome problem.
Have you noticed that the picture of that van does not look like the picture in the regulations?

[Cecil DP]

The article states that VANGUARD "donated" the money for the wrapping of the vehicle. It was more likely the royalties CAP gets for the use of the CAP name and exclusive sale of CAP items.

[arajca]

The article states that VANGUARD "donated" the money for the wrapping of the vehicle. It was more likely the royalties CAP gets for the use of the CAP name and exclusive sale of CAP items.

It was probably a combination. I don't doubt that Vanguard donated some money toward the cost, but I don't think it was a significant amount (>$100)

[Eclipse]

About five years ago I had a company in my state offer to provide a wrap for one of the CAP vans in the wing for no charge. 

A lot has changed in CAP in five years, including the National Commander.  Perhaps now would be the time to pursue is again instead of griping about people who aren't even in charge any more.

[Rotorhead]

This has to stop.

Yes.

We need to pick uniforms designs and stick with them, pick a logo or seal and stick with it, pick a slogan and stick with it...

As a media professional, I can safely say that this change-whenever-we-like routine is doing nothing to increase public awareness, and, is, in fact, making PAOs jobs harder.

[wuzafuzz]

This has to stop.

Yes.

We need to pick uniforms designs and stick with them, pick a logo or seal and stick with it, pick a slogan and stick with it...

As a media professional, I can safely say that this change-whenever-we-like routine is doing nothing to increase public awareness, and, is, in fact, making PAOs jobs harder.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[FlyTiger77]

There is an interesting article on branding within Chevrolet that echoes several key points that JC004 and others have been trying to make:

"On Tuesday, G.M. sent a memo to Chevrolet employees at its Detroit headquarters, promoting the importance of "consistency" for the brand, which was the nation's best-selling line of cars and trucks for more than half a century after World War II."

""When you look at the most recognized brands throughout the world, such as Coke or Apple for instance, one of the things they all focus on is the consistency of their branding," the memo said. "Why is this consistency so important? The more consistent a brand becomes, the more prominent and recognizable it is with the consumer.""

                                                     ---New York Times on-line edition http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/automobiles/10chevy.html?hp

[JC004]

*sigh*  It's in Branding for Dummies and now it's in this article.  (Some) people still don't get it.  That said, people on CAPTalk and members in the field seem to get it quite well...

As I said before, even the cadets get it because they're making it into games.  I'm pretty sure none of them have degrees in marketing - just common sense.

[arajca]

These are the same folks who killed off the old four-fold brochures in favor of the "Opportunity Knocks" book for recruiting. Desite the fact that everyone in the audience (i.e. field personnel) when it was unveiled told them "Opportunites Knock" is not going to work for cadet recruiting.

Five years later they got it and produced a more apropriate handout.

[JC004]

I agree with that.  I remember saying that when I first saw them.  There was also the issue of size.  *sigh*

Why must you bring back bad memories of previous marketing crap that made me sad?   

[a2capt]

... Opportunities Knock.

He couldn't pass it up, to bring it up. ;-)

[NC Hokie]

Opportunities Knock is apparently dead, as my last literature order from NHQ included a new (to me) senior member recruiting flyer similar to the most recent cadet one.

I hope that there are proper recruiting brochures in the works, as these do not fit in our existing literature racks and lack a reply card for capturing contact information from potential members.  RUMINT suggested that the cadet flyer was a temporary bridge between the Opportunity Knocks and some new brochures (see http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6842.msg126772#msg126772), but the production of this new flyer suggests otherwise.

[Eclipse]

I hope that there are proper recruiting brochures in the works, as these do not fit in our existing literature racks and lack a reply card for capturing contact information from potential members.

If you're physically taking them from the prospect after they are filled out, that's one thing, but no one is sending in reply cards via regular mail anymore.  If they can't contact CAP in two clicks, they will forget they ever saw you.

[lordmonar]

Well...there is branding and then there is branding.

Chevy VS Chevrolet is interesting because he mentions Coke.....does he mean Coca Cola?

Doing the PC thing for a name may make sense if there is some confusion  Chevrolet has been Chevy for a long long long time.

To put this in a CAP context...is it CAP (as in a hat you wear on your head) or CAP (as in SEE AYEE PEE)?

I don't really think the Chevy vs Chevrolet has as much to do with consistency as it may have to do with image.  Chevy (to me) implies muscle cars and big trucks.....where Chevrolet implies luxury cars.  So if the company is trying to make an image change.....then yes consistency in branding is a good thing.

In CAP....the issue is not some much an image change but BRAND RECOGNITION.  When they see the red prop in a triangle they need to say "Oh CAP, the USAF Axillary".....and not "why is there a prop in a triangle".  To follow up on that our potential customers need to know that CAP=our missions and services.

These are issues are not so much "branding" as it is simple advertising and training.

[High Speed Low Drag]

My signature says it all.

[Earhart1971]

Do we have any Public Relations Folks at National HQ?

[Gunner C]

Maybe.  But we sure don't have any marketing folks.  Big difference.

[Earhart1971]

We need the MASTER LOBBYIST for Non Profits, that has a track record in Congress. That's what we really need, we had a lobbyist several years ago, paid like $24,000 per year, we need someone a little heavier than that.

[JC004]

We have marketing folks (at least that's what they're supposed to be - it's possible they are something else and NHQ named them "marketing").  I don't know that it's their fault necessarily.  This has been going on for a long time and I believe it to be the position of the National Board to give them the guidance on what our official emblems (and other brand strategy/elements) will be. 

The National Board (I'm still hesitating, but tempted to call them the "National Uniform Committee," as I've heard others say) has neglected this for many years to focus on things like new uniforms.  This isn't even necessary the fault of the current National Board - again, for many years, this body has neglected this critical issue of our identity.

[Pylon]

When you have 55+ Colonels and Generals in control (by committee) of managing and directing the organization, and they turn over almost completely every couple years, it's no surprise that we're heading in 12 directions at once and constantly end up with new mottos, logos, bright ideas, and plans that never get followed-through to completion.

[wuzafuzz]

Your average ham radio or 4X4 club has more coherent branding than we do. 

[vmstan]

Case in point: My grandfather-in-law's RC airplane club manages to have consistent branding. They have the same logo on every hat, newsletter, t-shirt, website I've seen.

[Smithsonia]

This is slightly off topic but... I have had members of the National Board and Staff argue here on CAPTALK that:
1. Uniforms, Service, and Duties are NOT elements of branding. And...
2. That slogans, logos, and cliches ARE solely branding elements.

I find this lack of public affairs knowledge... appalling.

However, I have also found that the higher you go sometimes the stupider you get. Take the CEO of BP as the latest example. BP has now been rebranded for it's lack of safety, lack of communications, lack of sensitivity, lack of response, and saying the dumbest things with most authority in public and repeating these ignorant utterances several times a day. Everything they do, everything they don't do, everything they say, think, and imagine is now a branding element. Their lack of brand understanding is quite apparent. I guess that BP management thought that their repeating cliches about safety and corporate citizenship could mask a lack of substance. This is "Empty-Suit" PR.

"Branding is built on substance and never meant to replace this substance with an abstract concept or illusion." Please pay attention to this most misunderstood edict. For all empty suits who may read this, remember that your understanding of this edict could be tested. Please remember and please prepare.

[JC004]

That's what I was talking about in this little conversation:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=10751.msg196889#msg196889

I've been saying for many years that the uniform is a part of our brand, yet they continue changing it without direction or a cohesive plan for our look.  If we had a plan, the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tapes and plates would never have happened at our expense. 

Then there's the example that I've cited a ton of times: in the time that I have been a member, there has been the following for the flight suit patches: Corporate Seal, U.S. Air Force Auxiliary Command Patch, U.S. Civil Air Patrol Command Patch and Sans-"U.S." Civil Air Patrol Command Patch.  Give me a break.

[RickRutledge]

Well...there is branding and then there is branding.

Chevy VS Chevrolet is interesting because he mentions Coke.....does he mean Coca Cola?

Doing the PC thing for a name may make sense if there is some confusion  Chevrolet has been Chevy for a long long long time.

To put this in a CAP context...is it CAP (as in a hat you wear on your head) or CAP (as in SEE AYEE PEE)?

I don't really think the Chevy vs Chevrolet has as much to do with consistency as it may have to do with image.  Chevy (to me) implies muscle cars and big trucks.....where Chevrolet implies luxury cars.  So if the company is trying to make an image change.....then yes consistency in branding is a good thing.

In CAP....the issue is not some much an image change but BRAND RECOGNITION.  When they see the red prop in a triangle they need to say "Oh CAP, the USAF Axillary".....and not "why is there a prop in a triangle".  To follow up on that our potential customers need to know that CAP=our missions and services.

These are issues are not so much "branding" as it is simple advertising and training.

Patrick--

Some of what you are saying is exactly true, some is not.

Branding is branding, no matter what spin you might put on it.

Even if we attempt to "fix" our branding strategy, it won't do us much of any good without a squared away Public Affairs/Strategic Marketing plan.

In reality, the best plan is to hire a lobbyist for inside governmental communications showing our operational benefits to those who are in DC trusted with tax payers funding, plus on the recruiting/public image side we need to have a partnership with a major television network and radio broadcast group WITH a high-profile aviator (John Travolta or Harrison Ford for example) and do our best to bombard the nation with our missions and message. For the amount of money we supposedly spent on a NASCAR sponsorship we could accomplish all 3 of these goals pretty well. I don't have all the answers, but I have a pretty good idea where the organization should start.

While we're at it we should tear out a few pages of the Army's Public Affairs strategy. They do most everything in this arena, correctly. Learn from their lessons.

SM Rick Rutledge
PAO
Edmond Composite Squadron
www.EdmondCAP.org

PS -- Grab the book "Blue Ocean Strategy," it's worth the read but it will change the way you think about marketing, advertising and branding. Companies like Starbucks, Papa John's and McDonald's have been using it for years.

[DakRadz]

Good plan, just wanted to point out that Harrison Ford already does EAA/Young Eagles. I do believe he's the president, actually.

We need to talk to the Marines, as well.

They have these, after all.

[RickRutledge]

True, but he was used purely as an example.

[Nick P.]

I dont like the triangle version. I like the other one where it says Civil Air Patrol "USAF AUX" in a circle.

[JC004]

Good plan, just wanted to point out that Harrison Ford already does EAA/Young Eagles. I do believe he's the president, actually.

We need to talk to the Marines, as well.

They have these, after all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwY67LYzH7Q

We should also talk to them about the fact that they don't change their freaking uniform all the time. Or like...ever.

[DakRadz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwY67LYzH7Q

We should also talk to them about the fact that they don't change their freaking uniform all the time. Or like...ever.

To the first- Oh. My. WOW THAT WAS AWESOME EVEN FOR A NAVY HOPEFUL!!! Heh-em, that was rather amazing.

Well, they have good tradition. But when the Marines do change their uniforms, everyone follows suit- you know what MARPAT is, right? Then ACU, ABU, NWU... In that order.

[JC004]

It was quite a big deal when they came here (and elsewhere) for the filming.  You can watch some the the behind the scenes-type videos on there too.

http://our.marines.com/cms_content/showblogvideo/rel_id/44/id/440

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S25Hb8Cik5Q

[Smithsonia]

We had a discussion late last year about Uniforms as Branding Elements. SEE HERE: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9528.0

[JC004]

I remember that.  I still think the ACU was chosen with form over function in that area.  Otherwise, they would have chosen something that blends into things, like MultiCam.

Certainly the AF and Navy chose theirs as branding-types.  Especially the FIRST draft of the ABU - YUCK.

[FlyTiger77]

I remember that.  I still think the ACU was chosen with form over function in that area.  Otherwise, they would have chosen something that blends into things, like MultiCam.

Certainly the AF and Navy chose theirs as branding-types.  Especially the FIRST draft of the ABU - YUCK.

I'll have you know that the ACU DOES blend in. If we ever go to war in a gravel pit, NO ONE will see us!!

[Smithsonia]

While the Navy, Marines, and Air Force have great uniform traditions - the US Army has 200 years of dithering over and over with various ideas, combinations, and colors.
There is an extensive review of the issues here:
http://www.qmfound.com/Army_Green_Uniform.htm#Lack%20of%20Army%20Uniform%20Tradition

[DakRadz]

The Navy one is rather ripped off of the Marine's MARPAT... It's sad for me..

But the services (except perhaps the Army, and they're half of the AD guys and gals anyway, so I say they get leeway) generally understand they can't change extremely often.

Look at the most recent Service Uniform changes:
Marines: Sometime in the 18th-19th century... moving on. 
Air Force: Modernizing the service coat, really. Not a huge deal, logical even.
Army: Overhaul which actually reverted to an old style, ie greens to blues. The same blues I've seen in Civil War movies/shows
Navy: ....... Total overhaul. At least they simplified the number of unis (at the cost of making Chiefs and officers mad/looking like Marines..); also added a reversion to the past with the Service Dress Khakis. Ask SarDragon to tell you about the rank specific multitude that STILL exists, but I'll keep it simple.
While I was typing: Smithsonia, I disagree- the Navy has started the dithering now... And the Marines have the best track record, bar none. USAF next (not a lot of time to screw up.. but then again look at CAP, so USAF isn't halfbad) Then Army, but they've done Blues, Browns, Greens, Blues, that I know of, so not to shabby.


Now, ignore the Navy, and you see that the services have established their brands.
CAP needs to take a leaf out of this book. Even if members are thought to be AF, that's a step in the right direction. If people see a symbol and think "CAP!", somebody learned. Making Corporate unis isn't a bad idea whatsoever, but they need to stay steady.

That being said, Kill The Triangle-Thingy! Stick with our 4 symbols and try to build from there.


Written with mods in mind - I hope this is CAP related enough ^_^

Also, I would like to apologize for leaving out the USCG, but I'm not informed on their uniform history- pretty sure they've got it mostly figured out though- other than looking like USAF

[O-Rex]

The branding issue is a symptom of our own organizational schizophrenia:  We ARE are the Air Force's Aux, well, not really, well yeah, but only when we stand on one leg while rubbing our tummies and patting our heads at the same time....

[SarDragon]

The Canoe Club has been messing with things for at least the last 40 years. It's nothing I would consider just recent. If I'd kept them all, I'd have as many failed USN uni combos as there are failed CAP uni combos.

Sadly, the "white hats" have borne the brunt of the changes, while "the khakis" have gotten away mostly unscathed. As a SWAG, there's probably a 3:1 ratio between "white hat" changes and "khaki" changes.

[DakRadz]

Did they not literally change the "white hat"? It seems a different shape now than I see in old contexts. Anyway, the Navy is doing the same as CAP, and then some... Stealing ideas from the Marines, and then there's the dilemna of "Cross Into The Blue"- now, I think that's Navy, but YYMV and I'd have to look on the web to confirm.

We need to set a firm foundation- heck, why don't we lock everything except for BDUs down, for the next ten years? 

[JC004]

I remember that.  I still think the ACU was chosen with form over function in that area.  Otherwise, they would have chosen something that blends into things, like MultiCam.

Certainly the AF and Navy chose theirs as branding-types.  Especially the FIRST draft of the ABU - YUCK.

I'll have you know that the ACU DOES blend in. If we ever go to war in a gravel pit, NO ONE will see us!!

At the USO at Philadelphia International, I hear Army folk talk about the uniform quite often.  That's how I first found out about the MultiCam in Afghanistan thing.  Once, some soldiers decided that the uniform blended well with the floors at the airport.  So, if we ever go to war at PHL, it'll be great.

[SarDragon]

Did they not literally change the "white hat"? It seems a different shape now than I see in old contexts. Anyway, the Navy is doing the same as CAP, and then some... Stealing ideas from the Marines, and then there's the dilemna of "Cross Into The Blue"- now, I think that's Navy, but YYMV and I'd have to look on the web to confirm.

We need to set a firm foundation- heck, why don't we lock everything except for BDUs down, for the next ten years? 

There's probably closer adherence to the rules about rolling one's white hat. I see pix all the time now with totally straight-sided hats, something no self respecting sailor of my era would think about wearing.

[DakRadz]

I thought as much, though not in an insulting way to your generation. The straight sided supersmooth looks like something I would reserve to an Honor/Color Guard.

Talk about branding, though- eliminate the Triangle-Thingy and declare everything unchangeable when it comes to uniforms and logos, except for one (1) possible replacement for BDUs. People would know CAP then, moreso; I'd wager to it, anyway.

[BGNightfall]

Some notes on the Navy, since it's often being used as a point of comparison here, especially as it relates to brand confusion.

Yes, the Navy has undergone a large shift in uniform wear over the past three years, following on the heels of several uniform shifts in the other services.  Where this differs from our sibling services is that the Navy uniform change comes as a direct result of a large-scale survey of the actual service members in the early 2000's.  The results of that survey were that the "white hats" (or "blue shirts", if you prefer) were dissatisfied with the number of uniforms that they were required to maintain, and they were dissatisfied with the quality of the uniforms issued.  Both complaints made often and loudly in various topics on this board.  Following wear-testing of several uniform alternatives, three new uniforms have been fielded to the fleet which replaced no less than six uniform ensembles (and many more uniform combinations). 

As these uniforms began to arrive, Big Navy made a second survey of its members, this time assessing their opinion of the service's recruiting campaign.  The survey ultimately showed that sailors wanted the advertisements to be an accurate reflection of what the Navy's real-world missions, instead of a few "hotshot" professions.  The newest ads reflect this, with the new slogan "A Global Force for Good".  ("Cross into the Blue" is the current Air Force slogan).  The new ad campaign shows sailors in various global peace-keeping and humanitarian roles, proudly displaying the new uniforms.

The Navy has, on the advice of its own service members, consolidated its uniform array and is in the process of creating a single, far-reaching, all-inclusive brand highlighting both this change and the change in world climate.  Interestingly enough, these are the same changes that members of this board cry for repeatedly and often.

P.S.- SarD, while most sailors that I work with do not choose to roll the white hat, that particular feature is usually associated with the surface force (i.e. ESWS qualified sailors).  The Ceremonial Guard at the Navy Yard also wear their white hats rolled.

/righteously indignant rant

[Smithsonia]

When I spoke of the consistency of uniforms - I meant to say "Dress Uniforms." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Navy_Uniforms.png
Here's the current Navy Dress Uniforms. And these haven't changed much since WW2.

By the way that new Blue Camo Navy BDU is a goofy piece of work. I was at North Island, CA. last week and saw those everywhere. These are easy to spot on land. So unless you fall in the water  - right when you'd prefer to be seen - the camo seems useless. Goofy and will go the way of the "Johnny Cash" within 5 years, I predict. SEE THAT PIECE OF WORK HERE:
http://media.photobucket.com/image/navy%20camouflage%20uniform/SVTbird/new_usn_uniform.jpg

[DakRadz]

When I spoke of the consistency of uniforms - I meant to say "Dress Uniforms." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Navy_Uniforms.png
Here's the current Navy Dress Uniforms. And these haven't changed much since WW2.

By the way that new Blue Camo Navy BDU is a goofy piece of work. I was at North Island, CA. last week and saw those everywhere. These are easy to spot on land. So unless you fall in the water  - right when you'd prefer to be seen - the camo seems useless. Goofy and will go the way of the "Johnny Cash" within 5 years, I predict. SEE THAT PIECE OF WORK HERE:
http://media.photobucket.com/image/navy%20camouflage%20uniform/SVTbird/new_usn_uniform.jpg

A lot of people get the wrong idea about the camo, just like with CAP. The Navy camo is designed to hide wear and stains, whereas working khaki/dungarees have a life span of 6 months, they're hoping NWU will have a lifespan of about 18 months.
There is absolutely no active camoflauge design intended, except that the colors are the most common ones found painted on ships. And of course the blue is traditional. The Navy has announced two more variants of this exact same uniform- and one of them is a desert style like the desert style MARPAT. So for in-the-field ops, there will be true camo.

Now, CAP's BDU choice is also often given a sideways glance- why would we want to blend in?? When in reality we chose a uniform widely available at a reasonable cost to our members. They don't look well-thought out at first, but when you really look at the true reasons, they're pretty much dead-on.

[Smithsonia]

^^^^
DakRadz;
Hiding stains instead of people. No I hadn't heard about that one. I have argued for years the CAP should go all Blue BDU for seniors and mixed Woodland (given Fat and Fuzzy requirements and BBDUs for the rest) for cadets. I wear BBDUs and think they are great. Thad Allen wears his with pride, we can/should too.

[DakRadz]

I think the stigma with BBDUs (ODUs if you're a Coastie  ) is the very fact that they are generally required only by regs when a member does not meet AF standards. Some unit CCs may require all seniors to wear these; I think it's a good idea, because it isn't a "punishment" and all are included.

This would help with branding- we just need to set a uniform down and stick with it. And BBDUs are in fair supply, because the CG uses the same ones, only called different.

P.S. I hope I made it clear that the stains are paint stains and the like.. I can see someone visualizing a sailor spilling coffee on himself, then looking up and saying, "At least I have my new NWUs on!" Not what I was aiming for XD
P.S. 2 Just saw a girl with a similar last name to you on TV, whose dad tried to rescue her from raging floodwaters. That sounds like a CAPper to me. Any relations?

[Smithsonia]

DakRadz;
BBDUs are great except they fade at different rates so it is tough to keep my blouse and pants looking the same shade. I keep about 3 sets going
at any one time. With a pristine set of lightly washed ready and therfore dark blue for awards ceremonies and 2 faded sets for ground team missions. That said, I must have 2 or 3 sets of pants that don't match any blouse currently. I wear those with a black T-Shirt while training and office work.

BBDUs say both military and police/fire/rescue... so it works for us and for customers. Uniforms are good. If we want to individualize or particularize our duty uniform we should specify it on our ANSI vests.

Regarding your question in PS number 2: No relation to me that I know. O'Briens are common enough to be in trouble often. Glad she is OK.

[SarDragon]

When I spoke of the consistency of uniforms - I meant to say "Dress Uniforms." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Navy_Uniforms.png
Here's the current Navy Dress Uniforms. And these haven't changed much since WW2.

The pictured items are officer uniforms, and you are correct, they haven't changed much since WWII. The enlisted uniforms, specifically E-6 and below, are a little different story. There were significant changes in the '70s and '80s for those folks, both with their dress and working uniforms.

By the way that new Blue Camo Navy BDU is a goofy piece of work. I was at North Island, CA. last week and saw those everywhere. These are easy to spot on land. So unless you fall in the water  - right when you'd prefer to be seen - the camo seems useless. Goofy and will go the way of the "Johnny Cash" within 5 years, I predict. SEE THAT PIECE OF WORK HERE:
http://media.photobucket.com/image/navy%20camouflage%20uniform/SVTbird/new_usn_uniform.jpg

I like it. It is more utilitarian than the olde dungarees, and will, as mentioned above, last longer.

A ship is a dirty working environment, and it's a different variety of dirty that a Soldier or Marine encounters on the battlefield. You are constantly exposed to grease and oil while traveling around the ship, and this stuff never washes out completely. You can end up with a week old uniform with a big stain on it, and it is now unwearable anywhere but on the ship, underway. The new stuff will hide some of those stains and have a longer useful life.

[Slim]

This would help with branding- we just need to set a uniform down and stick with it. And BBDUs are in fair supply, because the CG uses the same ones, only called different.

Just to keep the record straight, there is a difference between BBDUs for CAP, and the USCG's ODUs.

ODUs come in two varieties, both of which feature a two pocket shirt.  The older, tuck-in version is in the process of phasing out on the active duty side, but CG Aux members will be wearing them for a while.  The current, un-tuck version also has a two pocket shirt, but is worn un-tucked, and has a dark blue or black Coast Guard crest embroidered on the left pocket.  The initial version of the un-tucked ODU also had crests embroidered on the sleeve cuffs, and the flaps of the cargo pockets on the trousers.  The ODU is also a different shade of navy blue, as specified by the Coast Guard.

DakRadz;
BBDUs are great except they fade at different rates so it is tough to keep my blouse and pants looking the same shade. I keep about 3 sets going
at any one time. With a pristine set of lightly washed ready and therfore dark blue for awards ceremonies and 2 faded sets for ground team missions. That said, I must have 2 or 3 sets of pants that don't match any blouse currently. I wear those with a black T-Shirt while training and office work.

I'm guessing you have 100% cotton BBDUs?

Best solution I can offer is to either buy the polyester/cotton blend BBDUs (no fading or shrinking), or make sure you wash pants/shirt at the same time.  When I was wearing 100% cotton BBDUs, I always numbered them so the sets would stay together, and always washed them together.  Didn't stop them from fading, but at least they were faded uniformly.

I've since gone completely to the poly/cotton ripstop blend (three sets), my oldest set is about two years old now, no fading whatsoever.

[DakRadz]

Okay then, everybody off the DakRadz BBDU reasoning bandwagon. Hope you enjoyed your trip to Miss Information Palace


Thanks for the enlightenment, sir.

[Al Sayre]

When I was in the Navy, folks were constantly having to buy new dungaree pants at $15.00 a pop because they faded from Navy Blue to Sky Blue after about 20 washes.  I found that the soulution was to just re-dye them using 2 packs of Rit Dark Blue & 1 pack of Rit Black dye per load (4-5 pairs of pants).  If you follow the instructions, this produces a very nice Dark Navy Blue that makes them look almost like brand new. (Of course you will need to remove the patches first.)  After you dye them, you wash them immediately in cold (IIRC) to set the dye. I believe that same combination would work well for the BBDU. 

Also, be sure to run a couple of Hot wash cycles heavy on the bleach with nothing of value - not empty (I had a few old towels for this purpose) through the machine to remove any left over dye before you do regular laundry.

[DakRadz]

When I was in the Navy, folks were constantly having to buy new dungaree pants at $15.00 a pop because they faded from Navy Blue to Sky Blue after about 20 washes.  I found that the soulution was to just re-dye them using 2 packs of Rit Dark Blue & 1 pack of Rit Black dye per load (4-5 pairs of pants).  If you follow the instructions, this produces a very nice Dark Navy Blue that makes them look almost like brand new. (Of course you will need to remove the patches first.)  After you dye them, you wash them immediately in cold (IIRC) to set the dye. I believe that same combination would work well for the BBDU. 

Also, be sure to run a couple of Hot wash cycles heavy on the bleach with nothing of value - not empty (I had a few old towels for this purpose) through the machine to remove any left over dye before you do regular laundry.

I wasn't aware Admirals were authorized dungarees. Sounds like good advice if I can rally everyone to switch to BBDUs

[HGjunkie]

You couldn't catch me dead in BBDUs.

[DakRadz]

If you're dead, I don't think I'll be chasing after you to catch. Special request to the coroner, because you know, "It was his dying wish he be buried in these, sir.... Oh yes sir, thank you!" 

I win. Besides, wouldn't you rather people saw CAP? Or something. Heck, if we can achieve more brand recognition than the USCG, with the same (To the layman) uniform, I'll be happy. YMMV.

[Slim]

You couldn't catch me dead in BBDUs.

Must be nice to have the choice.  Remember, a lot of us don't.

They really aren't that bad.  At least my full color patches don't look goofy on them. 

[RiverAux]

I thought we had it bad..The State Defense Force in South Carolina is the South Carolina State Guard.  Apparently they are switching back to the patch they used during WWII.  The only problem is that the name on the patch is "South Carolina Defense Force".  But, they're not changing their name. 

This would be like the AF deciding to put "Army Air Corps" on their tapes, but still officially being known as the US Air Force.

[High Speed Low Drag]

You couldn't catch me dead in BBDUs.

Be careful with your statements.  There is a C/LTC I know that is way outside H/W requirements & is turning 18 in 3 months.  He will have to switch over to BBDUs at that time, even though he is a cadet.

BTW - His H/W issues are medical-related.