Should Senior Members Enourage or Discourage Cadets from Entering Military?

[jimmydeanno]

I am having a hard believing what I am reading.  I believe everyone "owes" this country 2-6 years of service.  This may be military or civil, but everyone owes something.

Where is it written in the Constitution, in what article or section is it contained, that you may take children from their parents, and parents from their children, and compel them to fight the battles of any war, in which the folly or the wickedness of Government may engage it?"

Said during the war of 1812, a war which was fought and won without the use of a single conscript.

And to quote Ayn Rand,

"Of all the statist violations of individual rights in a mixed economy, the military draft is the worst. It is an abrogation of rights. It negates man's fundamental right--the right to life--and establishes the fundamental principle of statism: that a man's life belongs to the state, and the state may claim it by compelling him to sacrifice it in battle. If the state may force a man to risk death or hideous maiming and crippling, in a war declared at the state's discretion, for a cause he may neither approve of nor even understand, if his consent is not required to send him into unspeakable martyrdom--then, in principle, all rights are negated in that state, and its government is not man's protector any longer. What is there left to protect?"

The same can be said about obligatory civil service.

[Ned]

Don't recruiters have numbers to meet? Quota probably isn't right term.

Recruiters are under a lot of pressure to meet their productivity goals, usually expressed as their "mission".  (E.g., "My mission is two enlistments a month.")

Which is a bit of a problem from the CAP squadron perspective.  Our median age for cadets is below what recruiters are interested in.  Due to pressure to produce, recruiters have a very short range focus - who can I enlist this month? - or at least while I am on this tour?.  A 15 year old CAP cadet can't even sign papers until they are 17, and by then the individual recruiter will have moved on.

So talking to CAP units is usually not very high on their priority list.  Some will do it, or course, but most recuriters feel like they are up to their tails in alligators meeting their current mission and feel like talking to "non-productive" groups takes time away from meeting mission.

I think it is always appropriate to have senior ROTC/Academy folks come out since it serves the double purpose of encouraging college and exposing cadets to options concerning an officer career.

[Rotorhead]

And I have problems with people who believe they can be pro-America and not support our military.

Well, then it is lucky that I am not one of those people.

[Hawk200]

...you would see that I feel there should be some government service required of our young people for the privilege of living in this great country.  That could consist of military or civilian service. 

Service to the country can start and remain in the local community. One doesn't have to be a Federal employee or military member to be serving the public. I think the example of a person being a teacher is an excellent one. That's building the next generation of our citizens.

A paramedic is serving every one of the folks he saves. A LEO is protecting the public. So is a firefighter. Doctors are contributing to the health of the public. There are companies that make a point of bringing jobs into communities and providing useful products to those communities. As long as they're not doing it to "just make a buck", they're working for that community.

It is impossible for everyone to work military or government service. The simple numbers don't allow for it. Budgets don't allow for it. It's just not doable.

AirAux, I've looked back at all the posts you've made, and I really haven't seen anything to show military or government service. What is the nature of your government service?

[AirAux]

For what it's worth, I am prior service active duty Army,  My Dad was Career Air Force, My oldest was Army Reserve/National Guard, my second oldest was AFA graduate and I have over 30 in CAP.  When I said military or civilian service, I didn't necessarily mean government service, although I do have 12 years civil service.  I feel that all should give back something to this great country.  In one of the above messages, someone cited Ayn Ryan, an extreme individualist.  She came from Russia as an immigrant and liked this country so much she wouldn't leave.  She immediately decided she could improve the American way of life by promoting self-service and individual rights.  While an interesting concept,  at some point, one needs to give something back to the good of the system in some fashion.  At this point, I am sorry I even entered an opinion in any of this as I had no idea as to the lack of military support of my fellow CAP'ers.  Perhaps I have become an old dog and should just fade away.     

[flyguy06]

Don't recruiters have numbers to meet? Quota probably isn't right term.

Recruiters are under a lot of pressure to meet their productivity goals, usually expressed as their "mission".  (E.g., "My mission is two enlistments a month.")

Which is a bit of a problem from the CAP squadron perspective.  Our median age for cadets is below what recruiters are interested in.  Due to pressure to produce, recruiters have a very short range focus - who can I enlist this month? - or at least while I am on this tour?.  A 15 year old CAP cadet can't even sign papers until they are 17, and by then the individual recruiter will have moved on.

So talking to CAP units is usually not very high on their priority list.  Some will do it, or course, but most recuriters feel like they are up to their tails in alligators meeting their current mission and feel like talking to "non-productive" groups takes time away from meeting mission.

I think it is always appropriate to have senior ROTC/Academy folks come out since it serves the double purpose of encouraging college and exposing cadets to options concerning an officer career.

I agree. In fact, I know a cadet who just graduated from High schol and is a freshman in college and is in Army ROTC and he loves it. he comes back to the squadron and talks to the cadets about it all the time

[flyguy06]

For what it's worth, I am prior service active duty Army,  My Dad was Career Air Force, My oldest was Army Reserve/National Guard, my second oldest was AFA graduate and I have over 30 in CAP.  When I said military or civilian service, I didn't necessarily mean government service, although I do have 12 years civil service.  I feel that all should give back something to this great country.  In one of the above messages, someone cited Ayn Ryan, an extreme individualist.  She came from Russia as an immigrant and liked this country so much she wouldn't leave.  She immediately decided she could improve the American way of life by promoting self-service and individual rights.  While an interesting concept,  at some point, one needs to give something back to the good of the system in some fashion.  At this point, I am sorry I even entered an opinion in any of this as I had no idea as to the lack of military support of my fellow CAP'ers.  Perhaps I have become an old dog and should just fade away.   

hold on dude. Just because people dont think it should be mandatory to serve in the military doesnt mean they dont support the military.

Freedom is not free. It comes with aprice. But Freedom to think and express yourself is golden and should never be taken away.

[jimmydeanno]

...She came from Russia as an immigrant and liked this country so much she wouldn't leave.  She immediately decided she could improve the American way of life by promoting self-service and individual rights.

Coming from one of America's "sworn enemies," a place where individual rights don't exist and conscription is mandatory.  A communist country.  Communism, which overtly robs people of their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, all in favor of state ownership of everything.

I can see why she didn't want to leave and would promote that people here take advantage of their individual rights and liberties, after all, the country was founded on the principles of freedom from government oppression.

EDIT:

Rand's political views, reflected in both her fiction and her theoretical work, emphasize individual rights (including property rights) and laissez-faire capitalism, enforced by a constitutionally-limited government. She was a fierce opponent of all forms of collectivism and statism,[3][4] including fascism, communism, and the welfare state,

If that is an "extremist" then I am one too...

While an interesting concept,  at some point, one needs to give something back to the good of the system in some fashion.

Anyone who works "gives back."  Teachers, firefighters, even the fry guy at McDonald's is aiding this country.

I don't think anyone here is saying that they "hate America" or that they don't support our military/country - but there is a difference in showing support for them and acting as a recruiting service for "mandatory" government service.

CAP expects that its cadets do everything they can to be the best citizens they can.  "Prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation."  What else can you ask for?

[Hawk200]

For what it's worth, I am prior service active duty Army,

Commendable. And it's obvious that you have instilled a desire to serve others in your children.

When I said military or civilian service, I didn't necessarily mean government service, although I do have 12 years civil service. 

OK, now we're seeing a little more to your thought pattern.

I feel that all should give back something to this great country.

I agree, but I have to also put forth that military or government service is not the only way to do so. I don't recall who said it, but a statement was made in the past concerning the old Air Warning Service personnel. The statement was "They also serve, those who stand and watch." They didn't get paid, and probably weren't on any of what most people would consider "government rolls".

At this point, I am sorry I even entered an opinion in any of this as I had no idea as to the lack of military support of my fellow CAP'ers.

I think you have a misimpression of what constitutes "lack of support". If a cadet is choosing to go to the military, we should encourage that. If someone has a goal of being a doctor, we should encourage that. If someone wants to be a police officer, we should provide encouragement there too.

But if someone wants to be a firefighter in their local town, then we shouldn't be telling them "Hey, you can be a firefighter in the military." I feel that is wrong. The choice of their own path is their own. I think it shows great disrespect to a person of any age to attempt to relive our own lives through them. Their life, their choices, their path.

When it comes to recruiters, I don't have a problem with them overall. But if your cadet meeting schedule is the Air Force recruiter this week for an hour, and  the Army recruiter next week, and the Navy recruiter the week after that, then there is a problem. Our program has specific things we're supposed to be teaching, and if that time is always being taken up by a recruiter, then we're doing our cadets a disservice. They didn't join simply to allow recruiters to have access to them.

Now, an occasional meeting where all the recruiters come in on one night, give presentations on what the military has available, and field questions probably isn't a bad idea at. But that should be an occasional activity, not an often one.

[flyguy06]

I thought about having a meeting where I would have pilots from each military branch speak.

One thing about me though and I will probably get a lot of flack about. I encourage officership over enlisting. SO i probably wouldnt invite recruters to speak but I would definantly invite military officers  from each branch to speak. I want to encourage education and going to college after high school. i know everyone wont go to college but if you shoot for the stars you never know what you may get.

[jimmydeanno]

So, I probably wouldn't invite recruters to speak. But, I would definitely invite military officers from each branch to speak.

There are recruiters that are for recruiting Officers too.  When my wife was initially interested in ROTC, she went and talked to the one in our area.  There was only 1 in our whole state for the Air Force, but he was very helpful.

My wife got his contact information from the enlisted recruiter and had to make an appointment.  I don't see any reason that they wouldn't come out and talk - except that it isn't the target audience at 15...

[DogCollar]

Another way of "giving back" is what we do with our time, talents and treasure in a voluntary capacity.  In that way, I believe that being active in CAP is a way of serving the nation and community.  So is volunteering in a homeless shelter or hospital.  So is picking up trash along the highway and being a mentor/tutor to a child having a difficult time learning to read.

I fully support the men and women who serve in the military and I truly believe that 99% of CAP members feel the same way.  If a cadet is inclined and has the aptitude to serve in the military, I will assist and support in anyway possible.  I would also help the cadet that wants to be a part of the Peace Corps or UNICEF or the Red Cross.

[Hawk200]

I encourage officership over enlisting. SO i probably wouldnt invite recruters to speak but I would definantly invite military officers  from each branch to speak.

Encouragement is one thing, but only inviting officers looks like it might be serving your own agenda. Officership and education are not inclusive.

When I was in an artillery unit, I was a bit surprised to find that a lot of the guys on the gun crews had some pretty high education backgrounds. One crew alone had about half of the crew with bachelors degrees, a couple with masters, and one guy working on his doctorate. I asked them why they didn't go officer, as most of the gun crew MOS's were pretty short schools. One guy told me that that was exactly why he went with the short school, it gave him time to go to college. A few of them were actively considering commisions once their degrees were completed.

Enlisted service gives people people the opportunity to start their military careers, and pursue education while doing so. GI bill helps a good bit too. As to how GI Bill applies to officers, I don't know, you'd have to ask an officer that's used it.

[jimmydeanno]

As to how GI Bill applies to officers, I don't know, you'd have to ask an officer that's used it.

My wife is a prior enlisted, soon to be 2d Lt in the USAF.  She did 4 years, got her GI Bill, then went and did ROTC.

She was able to draw on her GI Bill while in ROTC, but could not accept an ROTC scholarship.

It worked out pretty well, because she transferred into the Air Guard, who has a tuition waiver if you go to a state school, got a kicker on her GI Bill and was able to draw her GI Bill at the same time.

So essentially, she was being paid ~$1,600/month cash to go to school.

[flyguy06]

I encourage officership over enlisting. SO i probably wouldnt invite recruters to speak but I would definantly invite military officers  from each branch to speak.

Encouragement is one thing, but only inviting officers looks like it might be serving your own agenda. Officership and education are not inclusive.

When I was in an artillery unit, I was a bit surprised to find that a lot of the guys on the gun crews had some pretty high education backgrounds. One crew alone had about half of the crew with bachelors degrees, a couple with masters, and one guy working on his doctorate. I asked them why they didn't go officer, as most of the gun crew MOS's were pretty short schools. One guy told me that that was exactly why he went with the short school, it gave him time to go to college. A few of them were actively considering commisions once their degrees were completed.

Enlisted service gives people people the opportunity to start their military careers, and pursue education while doing so. GI bill helps a good bit too. As to how GI Bill applies to officers, I don't know, you'd have to ask an officer that's used it.

I didnt say I discouraged enlisting and you are right. There are benefits to enlisting. I am not opposed to cadets talking to recruitiers. But A lot of my cadets want to be pilots and they dont realize that in order to be a pilot you must first be an officer so  they think they can just go to a recrutier and join up and be a pilot. I tell them that recruiters just want to enlist you. They dont care about your career goals and they will enlist you and tell you that you can become an officer later(MI speak because it happened to me). What happens from what I have seen is that when these kids do finally enlist, they become so disenchanted with the military because its not what they thought it was going to be they get out after their intial enlistment and never go back. Therefore never realizing the dream of becomming a military pilot.  They didnty even have to go through all of that. So I try and tell them they dont even have to go that step. being an officer is toatally different than being enlisted (I speak from experience since I have been both).

So, if I know that their goal is to be a pilot I tell them dont go to a recrutier but instead talk to a USAFA Liasion Officer or an ROTC instructor.

But yes, if a cadet is dead set on enlisting I will be the first to introduce him or her to a recruiter. But Ihave noticed in society that we ware encouraging kinds to enlist more than we are encouraging them to go to college andbecome officers. There is a stigma in society that says that you dont need an educastion to be successfull. Its taboo to sayyou are educated because people will theink that you think you are better than they are. SO people dont promote education like they used to.

[Al Sayre]

I would hazard a guess that the main reason we don't get much support from recruiters is; on average our cadets are below their target age group.  Sure, we generally have 1 or 2  >16 yr old Cadet Officers, but the median age of my 25 +/-  cadets is somewhere around 14 yrs old.  Most of our top performers already have their future plans made and are talking to College/ROTC/Academy recruiters. So all in all, we aren't exactly fertile ground for the local enlisted recruiter... JMHO

[flyguy06]

I would hazard a guess that the main reason we don't get much support from recruiters is; on average our cadets are below their target age group.  Sure, we generally have 1 or 2  >16 yr old Cadet Officers, but the median age of my 25 +/-  cadets is somewhere around 14 yrs old.  Most of our top performers already have their future plans made and are talking to College/ROTC/Academy recruiters. So all in all, we aren't exactly fertile ground for the local enlisted recruiter... JMHO

Thats true. thats another thing I have noticed in CAP. we are bringing in a lot of 12-14 years olds. When I was a cadet we had alot more 16-18 year olds.

[SarDragon]

I don't think it's my job in CAP to encourage or discourage a cadet from doing what they want to do.  I do think that it is my job to help them get where they want to go though.

+1000

I had a cadet in my unit in Maine who asked me for some advice when he was a senior in HS. I refused, stating that I would not make suggestions on how to plan his life.

His particular dilemma was concerning college choice - AFA or USNA against a full ride ROTC scholarship at Cornell. I presented the choices as I saw them, and the pros and cons of each.

After getting his Spaatz, he went to Cornell on his full ride (USN), got a Double E, went to Cal Tech for his masters degree, and spent his five years in the Navy working for Rickover in the nuke program. After leaving the Navy, he went to work for TRW designing VLSI microcircuits.

Bottom line, it was all about choices, not advice. I think the same thing applies to recruiters. We present options, and let them decide.

[flyguy06]

I see my job as  a cadet programs officer as a mentor. Someone who has lived life. WHo has been where the cadet wants to go. SO yes, I do give advice. The cadet isnt obligated to take it but I feel I need to at least present it.

If a cadet comes to me with a question wheather or not to go to college or to get a job. I am going to advise him to go to college.

[SarDragon]

But what if college isn't right for someone? Would you have them waste the time and money figuring that out? That's why I offer choices, and pros and cons, and let them make the decision. I give them a road map and let them pick which fork in the road to follow, without any influence in any specific direction.