What Happens To Civil Air Patrol IF Debt Ceiling Isn't Passed?

[davidsinn]

Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? 

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous. Penetrating restricted airspace to train the SAM crews? That's very dangerous because unlike the fighters those guys can't see the aircraft so something could go horribly wrong if everyone doesn't follow the procedures.

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services?

Don't read the Volunteer I take it? It's one of NatCap wing's ongoing missions.

[abdsp51]

Jeders can't say that I have.  River if the SECAF wanted, your right on that note and he has not exercised that.  For BMT they want the folks with deployment experience and their CCAF.  Ping command chiefs and the CMSAF and see what they would say on the topic?  Do I feel CAP is a useful organization yes, many benefit from it daily I know I did when I was in, however the scheme of things have changed.  The current focus is giving the new airman the skills needed to survive in a deployed location.  There is more critical information that needs to be presented in BMT than a two page blurb in the manual about CAP.  I have not objected to AF members being told about CAP I have just said there are more efficient means to go about it BMT is not the place for it. 

[abdsp51]

Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? 

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous. Penetrating restricted airspace to train the SAM crews? That's very dangerous because unlike the fighters those guys can't see the aircraft so something could go horribly wrong if everyone doesn't follow the procedures.

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services?

Don't read the Volunteer I take it? It's one of NatCap wing's ongoing missions.

No I don't. 

[Tim Medeiros]

Put it this way, the only way I'm certain I was taught something at BMT is the fact that I have it noted in my BMTSG (that BMT book you mentioned earlier).  IMHO, a class on CAP would be lost on the trainees at BMT.  There are simply many more things that have higher importance to an Airman than what he/she may chose to do in his/her off time after tech school, and like I said earlier, ANG and AFRES were merely mentioned in passing.  Of course, things may have changed as starting with flight 326(ish) there was a new BMTSG and new/different classes.

Also, just so you know, there was approximately 58 classes (each with its own chapter in the BMTSG) and 32 were testable on the End of Course exam, personally I think there is enough "fluff".

[abdsp51]

Please tell me how a new Airman's mission readiness would be denigrated by a couple of pages in a BMT manual dealing with CAP.

Please tell me how it's going to increase their readiness?  Impact it, they have to recall self aid buddy care, SPORTS,  their D&C for eval , ensuring they are passing their PT evals, passing BEAST, understanding OPSEC/INFOSEC,  this is a just a small list if you want to sell CAP do it at FTAC or newcomers briefings. 

[DakRadz]

Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? 

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous. Penetrating restricted airspace to train the SAM crews? That's very dangerous because unlike the fighters those guys can't see the aircraft so something could go horribly wrong if everyone doesn't follow the procedures.

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services?

Don't read the Volunteer I take it? It's one of NatCap wing's ongoing missions.

Heh, he isn't a member. "Do I feel CAP is a useful organization yes, many benefit from it daily I know I did when I was in"

Gotta love the "if I don't know about it (even if I'm not a member) it ain't happenin'" attitude.



Also, this is so far off topic we'll be seeing The Object Formerly Known As Planet Pluto out your right port window in T-5 minutes.

[abdsp51]

Heh, he isn't a member. "Do I feel CAP is a useful organization yes, many benefit from it daily I know I did when I was in"

Gotta love the "if I don't know about it (even if I'm not a member) it ain't happenin'" attitude.

Simply because I do not know about something does not mean I have said attitude.  All that I have said is that BMT is not the place for briefing CAP. 

[RADIOMAN015]

And once again RADIOMAN015 we ask you, why are you here? Isn't associating with a bunch of wannabes bringing down your self esteem?

I believe in the missions of Civil Air Patrol, not the "silliness" of some in the organization.   Active duty (as well as guard & reserve members in the AF (especially now) are "stressed" due to a variety of reasons.  I don't think those with young families or even single members, who are trying to complete there upgrade training and also get some college education, have the time to invest in Civil Air Patrol.  Surely there's going to be some fairly rare exceptions to this.  I do know that in the last 3 years we've recruited 3 AFR members, and all 3 did not renew.  I also know another individual, who is an air reserve technician, that was a CAP member in the unit quite a few years ago.  I asked him frankly why he didn't renew and the main reason given is it was too much like he did during the day and he wanted to do something different.

We all need a rest from our daily jobs, those folks in the active, reserve, and guard work hard and face some real challenges in today's environment.   

When I look at our local history of military member retention, I see it as a waste of time to target recruit adults/senior members in the military.   HOWEVER, if they have specialized training and want to provide a class/orientation or cadets & seniors  they are welcome to contribute, BUT that doesn't mean we need them to be members.  We've used those resources for our program with good success.

My personal feeling is we are "CIVIL" Air Patrol, and it is  better to have those in command positions that are not currently in the military (retired or separated for about 5 years are fine), since a civilian has a different orientation/approach than a military member and is much better in working with a volunteer "civilian" staff.   IF you are only recruiting military members on the base, and no one (senior members) outside the fence line, you have a problem.       

Budget wise, I can see CAP taking a real hit in the future budget implementation years and wouldn't be very surprised if 35% to 50% of the aircraft get grounded and the Nation HQ staff gets cut between 40-60% .
RM       

[Tim Medeiros]

Please tell me how a new Airman's mission readiness would be denigrated by a couple of pages in a BMT manual dealing with CAP.

Please tell me how it's going to increase their readiness?  Impact it, they have to recall self aid buddy care, SPORTS,  their D&C for eval , ensuring they are passing their PT evals, passing BEAST, understanding OPSEC/INFOSEC,  this is a just a small list if you want to sell CAP do it at FTAC or newcomers briefings.

I'd be more than happy to expand on that list.


I agree, a better place would be FTAC/newcomers orientation.

[NCRblues]

FTAC is the place to brief about CAP.

My FTAC experience was a joke at best. Over half of my 2 week FTAC was a complete waste of time. I ended up asking my supervisor to start my CDC's early.

During the FTAC weeks, the group of about 40 new airman got 3 base tours. THREE. Waste of time, could be filled with a quick briefing on CAP.

During FTAC we got a tour of the BX and commissary...again, waste of time. 

If you all so desperately want airman to know about cap, send it up the chain to cap-usaf, and say add it to FTAC. BMT is not the place, nor is tech school.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Please tell me how it's going to increase their readiness?  Impact it, they have to recall self aid buddy care, SPORTS,  their D&C for eval , ensuring they are passing their PT evals, passing BEAST, understanding OPSEC/INFOSEC,  this is a just a small list if you want to sell CAP do it at FTAC or newcomers briefings.

Anything that increases awareness of the Air Force, including its Auxiliary, is going to be beneficial...even if they're not tested on it.

A lot of the things in your list, admittedly, weren't part of the curriculum years and years ago ...but that was in the day of MAC/TAC/SAC, four-pocket service dress, the BMTSG being just a bunch of (badly) photocopied pages stapled together, buck sergeants, being called "Airman" from the getgo, no Airman's Coin...and lots of folding socks and underpants.

What is inexcusable is (admittedly anecdotal) accounts I've read in Air Force Times about Airmen trainees at BMT being told by MTI's to ignore and/or not acknowledge CAP members if they see them.  That is just out-and-out RUDE.

Perhaps FTAC is the place to talk about CAP.  However, the YMMV comes into the equation...one AFB may have a strong CAP presence and another may have little to none.

The only way for there to avoid a lot of the misunderstandings and outright falsehoods between the AF and CAP is learning about one another and interacting with each other.  It does absolutely no good if Lieutenant Joe Blow, CAP thinks he's entitled to a salute from MSgt Jane Blayne, USAF or for Airman Newkid, USAF to blow off the old chap/chapess with the grey epaulettes simply because SrA Loud Mouth, USAF MTI told him to one day at Lackland.

Anyway, are you a CAP member, and if not, what are you doing here on this board?

[abdsp51]

First the Air Force Times shouldn't be taken seriously as an official source for anything same as anything military times related.  And maybe at Lackland there have been issues with CAP personnel there I don't know so I am not going to touch it.  I have interacted with many CAP personnel since I have been active some pleasant some not so pleasant. Am I a member no I am not and I haven't been for a long time, and I have made no attempts to hide it.  I do believe in giving back to programs that I have benefited from in any capacity I can.  And honestly Airman Newkid will blow off just about anyone not in their chain regardless of what someone wears.       

[AirDX]

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous.

That's a once or twice a month event out here.  Not dangerous at all as long as everyone sticks to the plan.

[AirDX]

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services?

We flew two sorties against the Montana Guard F-15s on 27 July.

[davidsinn]

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous.

That's a once or twice a month event out here.  Not dangerous at all as long as everyone sticks to the plan.

Things do go wrong. I highly doubt there will ever be an incident but it's not as safe as being a towel boy in the base gym.

[JeffDG]

Please tell me how a new Airman's mission readiness would be denigrated by a couple of pages in a BMT manual dealing with CAP.

Well, since you're advocating the change, how would a new Airman's mission readiness be enhanced by this?

[RiverAux]

Anyway, are you a CAP member, and if not, what are you doing here on this board?

Gee, are you complaining that someone in the AF has some level of interest in what CAP is and what it does?  Isn't this the sort of awareness within the AF community that you were advocating? 

[Eclipse]

Please tell me how a new Airman's mission readiness would be denigrated by a couple of pages in a BMT manual dealing with CAP.

Well, since you're advocating the change, how would a new Airman's mission readiness be enhanced by this?

A) Not being a "you know what" to people in  a similar uniform who are just trying to help.

B) When asked or tasked with interaction, see "A".

C) Opening up the opportunities CAP offers for both community service points and activities normally available to the average, non-aircrew E2.
We tend to assume that everyone who enlists (officers, too), has this hard-kewl, amazing, life-changing job that so far out-shadows CAP's offerings
are so pale as to be transparent, when in fact, there are plenty of MOS's which involve little anything aviation-related or traditionally "hard-kewl",
and CAP wold be a welcome distraction, potential career enhancement, and as we all know, "fun".  An officer job is an office job, uniform or not.

As a general rule, active, engaged CAP memberships makes better "people" and better "citizens", being both or either makes for better Airmen, especially in the age range most join and leave.

Which is a better use of time?  A unit meeting, couch groove, or local bar?  #2 & 3 are where a lot of new Airmen spend their evenings (along with their peers, both in and out of the military).

[abdsp51]

I would have no objections to any of my guys taking off to go participate in a CAP function or anything community service related.  All I have said was that BMT and Tech School are not the places to brief about CAP.  FTAC is better suited for it same with newcomers briefings. 

IMO perception is that AF needs to sell CAP to its service members and not CAP sell itself to service members.  Anyone remember a car dealer named Cal Worthington?  He sold himself and his dealership not Chevy, Ford or any other car company whose product he sold he did it.

I have had good encounters with CAP members and bad encounters with CAP members since I have been in.  On my first base I stopped a CAP member with emergency lights in his vehicle and when questioned about it got defensive about it and acted like I knew nothing of the organization.  Had a couple here many years ago at the current base get upset because they didn't get a salute rolling through the gate.

Should there be awareness yes but it's not something to be taught in BMT or Tech School.  Can the program led to self/community improvement yes, but there are other more functional avenues to present the information. 

[AirDX]

Agreed - FTAC and even more productively for squadrons on/near a base, base newcomers briefings.  You'll catch not only service members but you can bring the cadet program to their attention for their dependents, as well.