What Happens To Civil Air Patrol IF Debt Ceiling Isn't Passed?

Started by RADIOMAN015, July 30, 2011, 12:16:17 AM

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Tim Medeiros

Quote from: CyBorg on August 02, 2011, 12:32:46 AM
Why not?  They have to learn about the ANG and AFRES in BMT.  There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that new Airmen could not have a segment on their Auxiliary incorporated into learning about their Reserve Components.
I'm actually sitting here with my BMTSG (BMT Study Guide) sitting in my lap, still in its binder from the 322nd TRS, only thing I learned about AFRES was where their HQ is.  We learned that during our 7th week (23 March exactly for me, found on page 386 of the BMTSG dated 4 Oct 2010), ANG was only mentioned as part of the Total Force concept.  The only reason AFRES was mentioned is because it is a major command.


I learned more about the AFRES and ANG from my fellow trainees than anywhere else in BMT or tech school.


A small note, ANG and AFRES are not even questioned about on the chapter review exercise for the Air Force Organization chapter.
TIMOTHY R. MEDEIROS, Lt Col, CAP
Chair, National IT Functional User Group
1577/2811

The CyBorg is destroyed

Major/Airman Medeiros:

Then it's changed...of course, I remember the days when Internet access in BMT was unfathomable, you were an "Airman" from day one ("Sir, Airman Dipstick reports as ordered...") you hoped and prayed that the MTI would let you call home, there was still a rank of Buck Sergeant, and the uniform was the "Tony Nelson" four-pocket with pewter-finish insignia.  AFRES wasn't a MAJCOM.

Most notably, SAC, MAC and TAC still existed!!!!!!!!

Nonetheless, you learned more about ANG/AFRES than you did CAP (but you were a cadet before going off to BMT, yes?).

When I joined CAP in '93, I learned the concept that CAP was the "fourth leg" of the Air Force's (bar)stool:

1. Active
2. Reserve
3. Guard
4. Auxiliary

Now, from what I've read anecdotally on line in the Air Force Times, MTI's teach trainees to not acknowledge CAP personnel when they encounter them.  That's stupid.
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fyrfitrmedic

MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

abdsp51

Cyborg most new airmen have a hard time acknowledging anything outside of their bling, paychecks, how much booze they can consume and how to get away with stuff. Id rather have someone who knows how to do the basic job than someone who's had things crammed in their head about an aux organization.

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: abdsp51 on August 03, 2011, 01:40:29 PM
Cyborg most new airmen have a hard time acknowledging anything outside of their bling, paychecks, how much booze they can consume and how to get away with stuff. Id rather have someone who knows how to do the basic job than someone who's had things crammed in their head about an aux organization.
I highly doubt the statement above is correct.   Surely there are some that get caught up in a bad cycle of drinking, etc, BUT the AF can be very selective on who they recruit and also who they allow to stay in.  There's plenty of airmen also going to school nights trying to further their career (whether in the military or out of the military).   Most active duty people don't have an interest in joining Civil Air Patrol, they can play "real AF" during their duty day and need to do something else when off duty.  It's a waste of time & money to try to recruit them.
RM   

DakRadz

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on August 04, 2011, 12:28:42 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 03, 2011, 01:40:29 PM
Cyborg most new airmen have a hard time acknowledging anything outside of their bling, paychecks, how much booze they can consume and how to get away with stuff. Id rather have someone who knows how to do the basic job than someone who's had things crammed in their head about an aux organization.
I highly doubt the statement above is correct.   Surely there are some that get caught up in a bad cycle of drinking, etc, BUT the AF can be very selective on who they recruit and also who they allow to stay in.  There's plenty of airmen also going to school nights trying to further their career (whether in the military or out of the military).   Most active duty people don't have an interest in joining Civil Air Patrol, they can play "real AF" during their duty day and need to do something else when off duty.  It's a waste of time & money to try to recruit them.
RM
One, I'm surprised a retired USAF member would claim that new Airmen are "playing" at their job. That's insulting to them and our military. I thought you said the Air Force is selective?

We are not the "fake" Air Force. We are an Auxiliary to a military service. Aren't you the one continually harping on about this very thing?

My first encampment was highly and by far the result of three Active Duty USAF personnel who were also active CAP members. They conducted most classrooms and supervised just about everything else- and knowing what I know now, they did not confuse the line between USAF and CAP in their training sessions with cadets.
It sure is a good thing that the CCs of those three didn't think three highly skilled USAF personnel were a "Waste of Time"

The biggest block to recruiting is people on both sides of one spectrum- those who try to recruit people but do not truly understand our organization.
At one end, we have RADIOMAN- they tell others how we are "wannabees" (unless you've been in the AF like me) and try to troll for salutes, benefits, and access to Area 51. Doesn't sound professional? No wonder they didn't join.

At the other end we have those very few who try to make us seem like something bigger than we are (there are lots of these people if you ask RADIOMAN). They say we are on call 24/7 as if it's actually realistically the case, that we train for 9/11-type disasters so we can run the entire response... Actually I haven't heard people trying to be "posers" so I have no idea what else they might claim about CAP. Ask RM, he seems to have plenty of ideas.

Seriously. Iunno what else there is to add. Negativity just seems to be some people's strong suit.

PHall

And once again RADIOMAN015 we ask you, why are you here? Isn't associating with a bunch of wannabes bringing down your self esteem?

jimmydeanno

I actually think it was a pretty fair assessment, from both comments.  There is a large segment of junior enlisted personnel that are only interested in the stuff that abdsp51 said.  I see it everyday.  But, there is also a large segment that same population that is dedicated to getting a degree in their first 4-years, moving up the ladder, and being the best Airmen they possibly can.  Both segments are going to have a hard time volunteering with CAP and accomplishing their goals.

Where I disagree is that it is a waste of time and money to try and recruit them.  My current unit is on an Air Force Base.  90% of our senior members are associated with the Air Force in some way - either civilian employee or active duty, or dependent.  We have a good mix of junior enlisted, senior enlisted, and company grade officers.  The other 10% come from the local community, but even they have veteran status.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

AirDX

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on August 04, 2011, 12:28:42 AM
Most active duty people don't have an interest in joining Civil Air Patrol, they can play "real AF" during their duty day and need to do something else when off duty.  It's a waste of time & money to try to recruit them.

So wrong.  The composite squadron I am involved with meets on base, and we have a good mix of active duty enlisted and officers.  Our two IT guys are Navy enlisted.  One of the AF enlisted guys is in some kind of emergency magament position, does a great job doing ES training with the cadets.  Got another MSgt who does a great job working with our honor guard.  Some of the officers are with us to fly a bit since they are in non-flying billets.

Some of them are former cadets giving back a bit, and some are just volunteers interested in the program.  Of course it's a two-way street, I think CAP counts towards their Volunteer Service Award (whatever it's called) and it's a good bullet for an O/EER.

But waste?  No.   
Believe in fate, but lean forward where fate can see you.

abdsp51

Radioman first off, I can tell you that's fact from a front line supervisors assessment, all the incidents I have responded to in the dorm area, housing areas, and the blotter entries I read on a daily basis.  Now jimmydeano also said it that many are trying to crank out degrees on top of a high paced duty schedule and deployment schedule.  Waste of time and money to recruit depends on who's trying to join.  I have tried to give back to the organizations in my area and have not had any luck.  People want to harp about how they are treated at their local yards and the relationship between the active folks and CAP is poor well find out why and fix it.  The AF has to change it's training aspects and vision to stay ahead of the game and counter threats, and unless you can pretty much directly link CAP into GWOT and FP then it will not be taught in AF curriculum until higher levels.  You need to sell your program to the AF folks so they know about you or don't. Do not expect the AF to do it for you. 

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: abdsp51 on August 04, 2011, 03:34:21 PM
People want to harp about how they are treated at their local yards and the relationship between the active folks and CAP is poor well find out why and fix it.

In my 18 years in CAP, it has too often seemed that the only way the AF has cared about their end of the relationship is if a CAP member does something stupid in uniform, and to provide warm bodies for Lackland.

Quote from: abdsp51 on August 04, 2011, 03:34:21 PM
The AF has to change it's training aspects and vision to stay ahead of the game and counter threats, and unless you can pretty much directly link CAP into GWOT and FP then it will not be taught in AF curriculum until higher levels.  You need to sell your program to the AF folks so they know about you or don't. Do not expect the AF to do it for you.

It would do well for those in the AF to take a quick look at AFI 10-2701 and AFPD 10-27.

Force protection I don't see we can do much with since we aren't allowed to bear weapons.

But as for GWOT...



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KT

Quote from: CyBorg on August 04, 2011, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 04, 2011, 03:34:21 PM
People want to harp about how they are treated at their local yards and the relationship between the active folks and CAP is poor well find out why and fix it.

In my 18 years in CAP, it has too often seemed that the only way the AF has cared about their end of the relationship is if a CAP member does something stupid in uniform, and to provide warm bodies for Lackland.

Quote from: abdsp51 on August 04, 2011, 03:34:21 PM
The AF has to change it's training aspects and vision to stay ahead of the game and counter threats, and unless you can pretty much directly link CAP into GWOT and FP then it will not be taught in AF curriculum until higher levels.  You need to sell your program to the AF folks so they know about you or don't. Do not expect the AF to do it for you.

It would do well for those in the AF to take a quick look at AFI 10-2701 and AFPD 10-27.

Force protection I don't see we can do much with since we aren't allowed to bear weapons.

But as for GWOT...





Poor example. Pictures from 1 day that could just as easily been taken by a NYC police helicopter or any other number of sources. How exactly did this help with the GWOT?

abdsp51

Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? And you need not carry a weapon to support FP.  And those publications outline how CAP is to be setup and supported, nothing in there states that the AF needs to brief it's members on CAP.  Again if you want the AF members to know more of your program sell it to them, don't expect big brother to do it for you.  Visions, missions, and training criteria has changed and since 9/11 if it's not nothing focused on taking the fight to the enemy it will not be taught.  In the grand scheme of things the AF has greater issues to worry about than giving a class to BMT flights about CAP.           

The CyBorg is destroyed

First of all, until you are the head of AETC who decides what will or will not be taught to the Air Force, don't pretend that you have the power to decide what is or isn't taught in BMT.  Just who are you referring to as "big brother," incidentally?

If the AF chooses to ignore CAP, then maybe it is indeed time our relationship is terminated.  Nothing lasts forever.  I have no illusions about that. 

And KT, that picture came from an Ohio Wing squadron site.

What "greater issues" are you referring to?  Yet another dorm cleaning/underwear folding session?  I remember those.

Nothing of value would be lost in BMT by a couple of pages in a BMT book (they still do have those, yes?) mentioning CAP.
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davidsinn

Quote from: abdsp51 on August 04, 2011, 08:03:11 PM
Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? 

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous. Penetrating restricted airspace to train the SAM crews? That's very dangerous because unlike the fighters those guys can't see the aircraft so something could go horribly wrong if everyone doesn't follow the procedures.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

abdsp51

Greater issues you ask?  Bombs on target, supplies to troops on the ground, close air support and the list can go on and on ensuring that people pay attention to detail to accomplish their job, so that lives are not lost.  I don't head AETC no but AETC has more pressing things than changing their BMT curriculum to include CAP into their manuals and I don't pretend to have the power to decide what is and isn't taught but I can tell that surveys are sent out for feedback on the teaching process so in a indirect way I do have the power to decide what is and isn't taught.  And by "big brother" I mean the AF you insist CAP be briefed in BMT, and have ignored the countless other routes to go to to advertise CAP that would have a bigger impact.  I would rather had a kid come to the unit prepped with the basic know how to do his job than have had to sit through a class on CAP.  Today the go through the courses to prep them to deploy and accomplish their mission down range.  Again until you can directly link to how CAP is going to help an airman who's sole purpose will be pretty much to go downrange and do the job he/she was trained to do it will not be taught.  What does CAP bring to the war-fighting mission that means it is so critical to be taught in BMT? If you want AF members to know about CAP go the FTAC route and present the information there and sell the program don't expect the AF to do it for you.  The best form of advertising has always been word of mouth.

abdsp51

Quote from: davidsinn on August 04, 2011, 09:09:47 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 04, 2011, 08:03:11 PM
Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? 

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous. Penetrating restricted airspace to train the SAM crews? That's very dangerous because unlike the fighters those guys can't see the aircraft so something could go horribly wrong if everyone doesn't follow the procedures.

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services? 

jeders

Quote from: abdsp51 on August 04, 2011, 09:18:56 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on August 04, 2011, 09:09:47 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 04, 2011, 08:03:11 PM
Again how do you directly tie into GWOT? 

Interceptor training? Playing tag with armed fighters is dangerous. Penetrating restricted airspace to train the SAM crews? That's very dangerous because unlike the fighters those guys can't see the aircraft so something could go horribly wrong if everyone doesn't follow the procedures.

When was the last CAP unit to provide those services?

Ever hear of Falcon Virgo?
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

RiverAux

Quote from: abdsp51 on August 04, 2011, 09:17:20 PM
What does CAP bring to the war-fighting mission that means it is so critical to be taught in BMT? If you want AF members to know about
Whatever SECAF wants us to bring.  Its not like its up to us.
US Code Title 10 Sec 9442
QuoteThe Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of the Civil Air Patrol to fulfill the noncombat programs and missions of the Department of the Air Force.
Heck, they could have CAP members teaching at basic training if SECAF wanted to go that route. 

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: abdsp51 on August 04, 2011, 09:18:56 PM
When was the last CAP unit to provide those services?

Florida Wing has done it.

Wisconsin Wing has as well.

http://wiwgcap.org/wing/content/view/171/1/

Please tell me how a new Airman's mission readiness would be denigrated by a couple of pages in a BMT manual dealing with CAP.

Yes, I come from the pre-9/11 days...but I don't consider the days of keeping Soviet bombers out of US airspace any less important or dangerous than GWOT.
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