What Happens To Civil Air Patrol IF Debt Ceiling Isn't Passed?

[RADIOMAN015]

If the debt ceiling isn't passed, what happens to CAP's operations and also the support staff at National

Hasn't the FAA agency already been affected because their budget was not approved

RM

[Al Sayre]

Nothing right away, our funding is part of the previously approved budget.  At worst, Wings may have to wait a few extra days for e108's to be paid...

[JeffDG]

Previously approved budgets are irrelevant in the event of a debt ceiling max.

The feds simply won't have the money to give anyone, they'll blow through what cash they have on debt service and priority items.  Other appropriations will have to be deferred.

The money that's already in the national or wing bank accounts are still good and can still be used, but no more money will come in.

[RiverAux]

Yep, though I wouldn't assume that national and wings wouldn't cut back on their spending just because they're unsure when new money might show up. 

Also, keep in mind that no matter how this is resolved, big-time budget cuts are coming to the military in the near future.  I've yet to see anything that makes me think that the AF wouldn't trade CAP for a single fighter and the only thing keeping that from happening is Congress.  However, if some other sacred cows start to go....

[Eclipse]

I know the State Directors tend to ping pong in and out of the "critical list", so that could potentially
impact activities where CAP-RAPS or SD's are required to participate (Evals, encampments, etc.).

But this is all irrelevant since the decisions were made weeks ago and the rest is just politics.

The bare minimum will be passed at the 11th hour, and then every effort will be made to characterize
this as Obama's fault as if raising the debt ceiling were unusual.

Sadly the damage to our economy and credit standing may already be done.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've yet to see anything that makes me think that the AF wouldn't trade CAP for a single fighter and the only thing keeping that from happening is Congress.  However, if some other sacred cows start to go....

Yes...when it comes down to it, we're not worth a bolt on an F-35.

Remember 1995 and John McCain?

All this over a bunch of politicians, on both sides of the aisle, acting like a bunch of whining, spoiled children.

[Grumpy]

We could save BIG bucks if we'd just stop spending money for all the freebies we give to illegals and stop bailing out every third world country that comes along that wants  kill us.

[jimmydeanno]

Gah!  OUR BUDGET IS NOT IMPACTED BY A REDUCTION IN THE AIR FORCE BUDGET!

Saying that our budget is going to go away because the Air Force wants a new plane isn't right.  The Air Force provides our oversight of federally appropriated funds from CONGRESS.  We don't get our money "from the Air Force."

[Eclipse]

+1

From a Defense Industry Daily article regarding CAP's budget and ROI.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/a-national-bargain-the-us-civil-air-patrol-02016/

Civil Air Patrol is private, non-profit corporation, deemed a 501c3 by the IRS, who receives annual appropriations through Air Force channels.

Although funded via the AF "Misc Contracts" line, CAP is a grant recipient, operating under DoD Grant and Aid Recipient Cooperative Agreement rules and regulations, as well as the appropriate Office of Management & Budget Circulars.

Note that Air Force college ROTC and JROTC are also funded under the "Misc Contracts" budget line item.

I don't believe this has changed since the article was written. 

Now, were we a legit, full-on line item of the USAF, instead of the above, we might get the love and oversight from Big Blue that many of us want... 
or...
...we might also have more free time on the weekends as the USAF incorporates a fleet of Cessnas into their new "DOMSUP" command where
pilots pushed out of flight jobs by UAVs maintain hours and perform "Missions For America".

[RiverAux]

Gah!  OUR BUDGET IS NOT IMPACTED BY A REDUCTION IN THE AIR FORCE BUDGET!

Saying that our budget is going to go away because the Air Force wants a new plane isn't right.  The Air Force provides our oversight of federally appropriated funds from CONGRESS.  We don't get our money "from the Air Force."

Didn't say that it was.  However, there is a certain amount of money that goes towards DoD.  If you ask the AF:  "Would you rather give a grant to CAP or have another fighter plane?  What is your priority?"  They would say, give me the plane.

Now, Congress doesn't always listen to what the military wants.  There are plenty of examples of Congress forcing the military to buy things or do certain other things that the military says that it doesn't need (extra engines for fighters), so the AF's desires aren't the final factor. 

And, also I was speaking to the wider desire to cut federal spending.  And when that sort of thing is being considered, how is CAP going to be considered?
   A.  We have a cadet program that is only 1/3rd the size of AFJROTC and certainly could be considered redundant.  Sure, the programs aren't exactly alike, but in the big picture, both are not needed.
  B.  We have a very limited role in emergency services (again, in the big picture), which in some states is actually non-existent. 
  C. The AE program is not a national priority and CAP certainly doesn't treat it as one.  Outside of our own members we essentially do nothing of significance in this area.
  D. We do essentially nothing in providing any direct support to the AF or the military.  Yeah, there are a few tiny little programs, but not enough to be a justification for the rest of CAP. 

That is what I would be seeing if I were a Congressman or Senator looking to cut the budget.  We can very easily be seen as a non-essential program that wouldn't impact military readiness one bit if we were cut. 

Personally, I certainly wouldn't think the AF would get any more real value out of 1 fighter jet than all of CAP and in reality that probably isn't the situation that would come up.  It would be more like we're cutting stuff from DoD's budget.  What don't we really need? 

I've spent almost 15 years in CAP and I obviously like the program, but if I was the one responsible for making really tough decisions on these issues, I really don't know that I could come up with any argument showing that CAP is essential. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've spent almost 15 years in CAP and I obviously like the program, but if I was the one responsible for making really tough decisions on these issues, I really don't know that I could come up with any argument showing that CAP is essential.

Almost 18 years for me, and I sadly agree with you.

Considering that most of the Air Force doesn't even know who we are, and another chunk considers us uniformed poseurs who troll for salutes, it wouldn't be easy for us to escape the executioner's blade...possibly even moreso than in 1995 (and, remember, John McCain is still a Senator with an axe to grind about CAP).

[Ned]

Considering that most of the Air Force doesn't even know who we are, and another chunk considers us uniformed poseurs who troll for salutes, [. . .]

How odd.  My experience has been slightly different.  I work directly with a half-dozen active and retired USAF general officers who value CAP so highly that they volunteer their time for us.

And just last month I was briefed by the AFNORTH commander (a USAF major general) about how hard his job would be without CAP.  He showed us his ATO for the day, and CAP made up the large majority of the sorties.

And while CAP's cadet program is only about the third of the size of JROTC, it is also conducted at less than 10% of the cost. and produces the same or better measurable results in accessions and increased success in completion of IET.  In an era of "value engineering" and a significant reduction in the size of the USAF, if only one cadet program survives, I wouldn't put my money on the AFJROTC.

(Note: We are not in competition with the terrific folks in AFROTC and JROTC.  I am not aware of any significant changes planned for them.  I only mention this based on the speculation posted above.  We are indeed different programs reaching different audiences of young people interested in aerospace and the military.)

But what do I know?  You guys sound very wise (if somewhat pessimistic.)

Ned Lee

(edit - spelling)

[Flying Pig]

If the debt ceiling isn't passed, what happens to CAP's operations and also the support staff at National

Hasn't the FAA agency already been affected because their budget was not approved

RM

I have some terrible news.  If the debt ceiling is not raised, all CAP members will have to volunteer their time, pay up front and wait for reimbursement.   

[davidsinn]

If the debt ceiling isn't passed, what happens to CAP's operations and also the support staff at National

Hasn't the FAA agency already been affected because their budget was not approved

RM

I have some terrible news.  If the debt ceiling is not raised, all CAP members will have to volunteer their time, pay up front and wait for reimbursement.   

Sounds like a Tuesday.

[RiverAux]

Considering that most of the Air Force doesn't even know who we are, and another chunk considers us uniformed poseurs who troll for salutes, [. . .]

How odd.  My experience has been slightly different.  I work directly with a half-dozen active and retired USAF general officers who value CAP so highly that they volunteer their time for us.

And just last month I was briefed by the AFNORTH commander (a USAF major general) about how hard his job would be without CAP.  He showed us his ATO for the day, and CAP made up the large majority of the sorties.

Ned, I think your experience is quite outside the mainstream of CAP in terms of having any sort of actual working relationship with members of the AF.  I suspect that even if you count ICs talking to AFRCC, that 90% or more of CAP officers haven't "worked directly" with the AF. 

But, for us out in the field, the AF is rarely, if ever seen.  Do they send representatives to Wing conferences?  Change of command?  Invite CAP members to important events at AFBs?  Certainly not often.  Yeah, if you are an important wing mission base staff member you probably see some around SAREVAL time, and yes, I've even heard some AF guys on SAREVAL teams thank us for our service.  But, only a small handful of CAP members heard that. 

And sure, CAP flights make up a lot of the sorties tracked by AFNORTH, but we all know that only a handful of those missions are actually directly assisting the AF and I suspect that for anything that they really, really, really need Cessna's for could be done on a contract basis for a fraction of what is spent on CAP. 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- if the AF really felt that CAP was part of the AF family and that we were really needed to help them accomplish their missions, they would take our 60K members more seriously and everyone in CAP would recognize it. 

I know some of you hate it when I compare CAP to CG Aux, but I've yet to come across an Auxie who hasn't had a personal experience of a Coastie personally expressing to them their thanks for our assistance in general and in regards to whatever task we may have been doing at the time.  Why, is obvious.  While CG Aux probably isn't essential either, it is indisputable that CG Aux takes on some actual missions that the CG is tasked with doing and takes some of the weight from their shoulders.  I've never had AF Colonels visiting my squadron meeting or coming to squadron events (and there are plenty nearby that could do it), but CG Captains and Commanders are seen at local CG Aux events and they often have to come a long distance to get there.  CG Admirals are not uncommon at what would be the equivalent of a CAP region conference (if there were such things).  It is rare that the CG Commandant doesn't mention the Aux whenever he makes general statements about the CG "family". 

Just saying, if CAP was, in fact, important to the AF, we would all know it and everyone would be able to cite multiple examples of both why we were important and situations where the AF told us so.   

And this does relate directly back to one of my long-time gripes -- CAP doesn't actually try to collect any real data on what its members do and therefore no one has any really useful stats to argue for CAP's importance.  Where is the data showing how great the cadet program is?  The AE program?  How many member hours (not just flight hours) were spent on AFAMs, including direct assistance to the AF? 

As someone who actually administers grants in real life, I wouldn't approve the final payment on CAP's contract with the level of data we provide showing what we did for the money. 

You know, it occurs to me that the reason the CG shows the love to their Aux is that they actually have data showing what the CG Aux does for them and their relevance to broader CG goals and objectives is clear. 

[wuzafuzz]

^^^
Perhaps it varies by wing, but in CO I've seen Air Force/ANG generals attend some of our SAREX's and our latest wing conference.  It's not common, but they are certainly aware we exist and seem to appreciate what we do.

[FW]

We're in new territory here however, If the debt ceiling is not raised, the government won't be able to borrow any more money.  As we are very close to the end of the current "fiscal year", I doubt we will notice any changes until 30 Sept.  If there is no agreement reached by then, I think we're going to have some real problems as "discretionary budget dollars" will dry up over night. 

But, then again, I remember a time when we paid for almost everything we did and, still had plenty of members who wanted to play.  I guess though, we won't be having any paid support staff any longer.  That would hurt.

The president, BTW, could order the treasury to start printing dollars (it was done before).  Think Germany in the 1920s.  I don't think that would be a good thing.  Best scenario would be for congress to get their act together and pass something realistic.....

[Eclipse]

Never talked to a CAP-RAP?  How about your State Director?

The USAF is around all the time - Evals and SAREx's, Encampments, we have a unit that meets on an AFB and another on a Guard base.

I see them plenty.  More would be nice, but I'm not complaining.

[Ned]

But, for us out in the field, the AF is rarely, if ever seen.  Do they send representatives to Wing conferences? 

yes, actually.  Pretty much every single one has a State Director attending..  You remember, an Air Force Officer (retired) paid by AF dollars.  Were you expecting the Air Force Band and the Singing Sergeants?

Change of command? 

Yep. pretty much every National, Region, or Wing command change I've ever seen (and over the last 40 years, there have been quite a few), have had Air Force representation.  I can't imagine a Region Liaison Commander or CAP-USAF commander not attending.  Has your experience been different?

Invite CAP members to important events at AFBs? 

Where appropriate, yes.  To be fair, I can't think that there are all that many USAF events on a given base where CAP presence would be appropriate, but I certainly have been invited to multiple events on base.

And sure, CAP flights make up a lot of the sorties tracked by AFNORTH, but we all know that only a handful of those missions are actually directly assisting the AF and I suspect that for anything that they really, really, really need Cessna's for could be done on a contract basis for a fraction of what is spent on CAP.

Of course not.  That's kind of the whole point of volunteer air crews.  Paid folks are always going to cost more than we do.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- if the AF really felt that CAP was part of the AF family and that we were really needed to help them accomplish their missions, they would take our 60K members more seriously and everyone in CAP would recognize it. 

I can only surmise that we have caught you on a bad day and you are not "feeling appreciated enough" by our USAF partners.  But I have always, always felt valued starting as a cadet when USAF folks at Vandenberg AFB went our of their way to make sure I had a "great Air Force Day" at encampment over 40 years ago.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Again, taking a hard (and slightly pessimistic) look at what the Air Force's needs are in dire financial straits:

CAP-USAF is part of Holm Centre, which under Air Education and Training Command.

Also at HC are Air University, AFROTC, AFJROTC, OTS and Air University.

AETC is commanded by General Edward A. Rice, Jr.

When faced with dollars thin on the ground, General Rice is going to have to make some hard decisions.

What do you think the General is going to decide to keep running if he has to make a choice - CAP-USAF or OTS?  Or, for that matter, the Academy of Military Science (commissioning for ANG and AFRES officer candidates)?

Having been in the CGAUX myself, I agree with much of what RiverAux says about their relationship with their parent service vis-a-vis our relationship with ours.  They are genuinely appreciative of what their Auxiliary does for them, and they say so.  Since the mid-'90s, the AF only seems to take note of us when someone whines that our uniforms look too much like theirs or when one of our top staff really does something stupid (Generalissimo what's-his-name, US Ranger Corps), or when an enlisted Airman encounters a dipstick CAP officer trying to make them salute (one of out of how many who don't indulge in such stupidity, but the bad apple makes the whole barrel stink).  It often seems to me, and I'm not speaking for anyone else, that the AF is primarily interested in us so that we don't screw up wearing their uniform (actual or perceived) and as a source of warm bodies for Lackland.

Eclipse: I can count on the fingers of both hands how many times I met a State Director, in two wings.  I haven't seen a CAP-RAP at our unit since last year.  About the only time I see the Air Force, including Guard and Reserve, period, is when one of our cadets earns their Mitchell (or higher) and signs on to go to Lackland as an E-3.

Ned: Respectfully, sir, I think you deal in much higher echelons than most of us ever will.  At the squadron, group or even wing level, the disconnect from the AF is much more noticeable.  Granted, it wasn't always that way.  I remember when I first joined in '93, my squadron was frequently visited by the LO (AFRES Major) and the commander of the local AFROTC unit (AF Captain).  I still maintain that most of the AF doesn't even know who we are...we don't even rate a mention to new Airmen at BMT.

What Eclipse said about "DOMSUP" could realistically happen.  I think a lot of ANG and AFRES units, in particular, would be looked at as meriting having these new, off-the-shelf light aircraft, in USAF markings, a lot more than we would if a decision ever came down to that.

Part of it is our fault.  We have had those on the "corporate" side who want us out of any kind of AF-type uniforms and to put the kibosh on AE and CP to the exclusion of solely being a flying ES entity want to have it both ways.  They don't want any interference oversight from USAF, but they sure do want to maintain the funding from them.