Now I realize there has been 1 thread about this already but it was awhile back...anyways how many people out there believe ONLY Senior members should be aloud to carry firearms (Pistol) as long as they pass a pre-qual set up by the wing or national level, and there state allows it? It also has to be open carry not closed! Plus only during Emergency Services operations. Any ways I believe they should, anybody else?
There is no purpose.
Quote from: wwiijunky7 on March 25, 2012, 11:01:17 PM
Now I realize there has been 1 thread about this already but it was awhile back...anyways how many people out there believe ONLY Senior members should be aloud to carry firearms (Pistol) as long as they pass a pre-qual set up by the wing or national level, and there state allows it? It also has to be open carry not closed! Plus only during Emergency Services operations. Any ways I believe they should, anybody else?
No.
Your wing King can give you permissions if you need it.
Why? What problem does this solve?
Quote from: jeders on March 25, 2012, 11:06:38 PM
Why? What problem does this solve?
problem: Not being able to shoot someone by accident.
No.
He was asking what problem would having armed SM's solve.
Oh no...not again...
Where be the lock clock when you need it??!!
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on March 25, 2012, 11:07:50 PM
Quote from: jeders on March 25, 2012, 11:06:38 PM
Why? What problem does this solve?
problem: Not being able to shoot someone by accident.
+1. We don't need weapons in CAP. We do not perform CSAR, so I doubt any army or insurgancy is going to fire on us. And if there is danger of things like bears and what not attacking us, then I doubt we should risk anyones lives and leave the mission to the people who carry arms has part of their duty IE Police.
Quote from: Littleguy on March 25, 2012, 11:39:51 PM
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on March 25, 2012, 11:07:50 PM
Quote from: jeders on March 25, 2012, 11:06:38 PM
Why? What problem does this solve?
problem: Not being able to shoot someone by accident.
+1. We don't need weapons in CAP. We do not perform CSAR, so I doubt any army or insurgancy is going to fire on us. And if there is danger of things like bears and what not attacking us, then I doubt we should risk anyones lives and leave the mission to the people who carry arms has part of their duty IE Police.
how dare you go look for people! *bang* *bang* >:D
Quote from: wwiijunky7 on March 25, 2012, 11:01:17 PM
Now I realize there has been 1 thread about this already but it was awhile back...anyways how many people out there believe ONLY Senior members should be aloud to carry firearms (Pistol) as long as they pass a pre-qual set up by the wing or national level, and there state allows it? It also has to be open carry not closed! Plus only during Emergency Services operations. Any ways I believe they should, anybody else?
Well, our wing commander recently turned down ground teams carrying chain saws to clear the roads on their way to an emergency response, so I don't give much chance in him allowing all of the senior members to carry pistols. ;) :angel:
We don't need members carrying pistols on ANY mission. IF it isn't safe we don't go, it is that simple.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 26, 2012, 12:13:40 AMWell, our wing commander recently turned down ground teams carrying chain saws to clear the roads on their way to an emergency response, so I don't give much chance in him allowing all of the senior members to carry pistols.
Not remotely even the same conversation.
If CAP is going to take on more liability with an issue where the laws vary state to state, municipality to municipality, then getting members medically trained in something further than CPR/First Aid would be more beneficial.
While I personally have no problem with competent people carrying firearms, I understand CAP's rules and sort of agree with them.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 26, 2012, 12:17:07 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 26, 2012, 12:13:40 AMWell, our wing commander recently turned down ground teams carrying chain saws to clear the roads on their way to an emergency response, so I don't give much chance in him allowing all of the senior members to carry pistols.
Not remotely even the same conversation.
Hmm, what more dangerous a senior member with a chain saw or one with a loaded pistol ??? ;)
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 26, 2012, 01:03:58 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 26, 2012, 12:17:07 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 26, 2012, 12:13:40 AMWell, our wing commander recently turned down ground teams carrying chain saws to clear the roads on their way to an emergency response, so I don't give much chance in him allowing all of the senior members to carry pistols.
Not remotely even the same conversation.
Hmm, what more dangerous a senior member with a chain saw or one with a loaded pistol ??? ;)
RM
Pistol. Don't stand next to SM BagODoughnuts when he has a chainsaw.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 26, 2012, 01:03:58 AM
Hmm, what more dangerous a senior member with a chain saw or one with a loaded pistol ??? ;)
RM
Chain saws. The hypothetical pistol would be holstered at all times unless there was a clear and present danger. The chain saw is intended to be used often.
Chainsaws are not dangerous unless the operator is wearing a Hockey Goalie mask. ;)
And you're safe until the creepy music starts.
Or unless you're in a Texas town in the middle of no where.
This is why we don't need our members carrying firearms:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4519.msg88043#msg88043 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4519.msg88043#msg88043)
There was an AD 68 years ago and therefore CAP members do not need a firearm?
I don't argue for the need, but I think that's a little bit of a leap.
Maybe it would have been more relevant if it had happened yesterday, but I think you're missing the point. CAP had weapons when our mission demanded it. Guarding airports against saboteurs required our members to have access to a weapon.
Today, our mission portfolio includes absolutely nothing that would necessitate the regular carrying of firearms, as though we are some kind of militia. It sends the wrong message about our organizations role and mission, and only leaves the potential of something like the 68 year old article I posted above from happening.
I have been on ground team missions where we stumbled across meth labs setup on public land. In those instances, had the "owner" of the lab been present, us carrying a firearm and being in camp would probably have escalated the encounter into something our organization is not prepared to handle.
YMMV
In 2012 I can see where we do not need to be armed.
Years ago a former member wanted to get his original rank reinstated and one of the documents was his CCW permit issued by the County Sheriff in 1952 to Major XXX XXXX, CAP to carry out his CAP duties. I doubt a Sheriff or a Chief would do that today.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 26, 2012, 03:47:05 AM
This is why we don't need our members carrying firearms:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4519.msg88043#msg88043 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4519.msg88043#msg88043)
You realize that people in the military shoot each other on occasion too, right? There is also a world of difference between quietly carrying a concealed weapon and standing guard duty?
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 26, 2012, 04:42:43 AM
I have been on ground team missions where we stumbled across meth labs setup on public land. In those instances, had the "owner" of the lab been present, us carrying a firearm and being in camp would probably have escalated the encounter into something our organization is not prepared to handle.
I've got news for you - whether you have a firearm or not, if you stumble across a drug lab when the owner is there, it will probably escalate.
A firearm is a tool. Properly used, it is the same as a shovel or an axe. Creating fear about it causes people to be unable to use it properly. They are to be respected, but not feared.
As to whether or not a SM can carry concealed on a mission - if it were up to me, I'd allow it, but nobody is asking me.
If there is a huge danger to a search team of possibly running into a drug lab, either ask for a police officer who will be carrying to be assigned to the search team or just let the police do what they do. We are Civil Air Patrol, not Pararescue Jumpers.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 26, 2012, 12:13:40 AM
Quote from: wwiijunky7 on March 25, 2012, 11:01:17 PM
Now I realize there has been 1 thread about this already but it was awhile back...anyways how many people out there believe ONLY Senior members should be aloud to carry firearms (Pistol) as long as they pass a pre-qual set up by the wing or national level, and there state allows it? It also has to be open carry not closed! Plus only during Emergency Services operations. Any ways I believe they should, anybody else?
Well, our wing commander recently turned down ground teams carrying chain saws to clear the roads on their way to an emergency response, so I don't give much chance in him allowing all of the senior members to carry pistols. ;) :angel:
We don't need members carrying pistols on ANY mission. IF it isn't safe we don't go, it is that simple.
RM
Why did anyone ask the wing commander for permission to carry tools! :o
As for carrying weapons.......unless you are like in Alaska where the bear threat is real and dangerous.....NO weapons in ES.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 26, 2012, 07:16:05 PM
Why did anyone ask the wing commander for permission to carry tools! :o
As for carrying weapons.......unless you are like in Alaska where the bear threat is real and dangerous.....NO weapons in ES.
I don't really want to run into wolves in Wyoming or anywhere in the Midwest for that matter. It's not just bears that can cause trouble.
Quote from: RogueLeader on March 26, 2012, 07:53:29 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 26, 2012, 07:16:05 PM
Why did anyone ask the wing commander for permission to carry tools! :o
As for carrying weapons.......unless you are like in Alaska where the bear threat is real and dangerous.....NO weapons in ES.
I don't really want to run into wolves in Wyoming or anywhere in the Midwest for that matter. It's not just bears that can cause trouble.
Like I said...and as the regs support.....wing commanders have the authority to allow if the threat is there....I don't know wyoming....but I bet the WYWG CC does.
Quote from: Littleguy on March 26, 2012, 07:09:18 PM
If there is a huge danger to a search team of possibly running into a drug lab, either ask for a police officer who will be carrying to be assigned to the search team or just let the police do what they do. We are Civil Air Patrol, not Pararescue Jumpers.
With regards to running into a drug location. There is a very, very low chance of running into a drug lab or drug farm - that could be a still in my part of the country. There is a very, very high danger if you do while the owner is there. The chances are the same every time you go into the woods where you haven't been before, so you'll never take an officer with you (if they even wanted to go).
The organization does not allow you to carry the tool that would help you in the event of being chased. So you have to settle for the next thing, which is your legs.
In the end, it has to be a risk that you just accept, like the chance of mechanical failure while flying.
I can see a Commissioned Law Enforcement Officer who is a CAP member being authorized to carry a firearm...maybe.
Otherwise I don't think any Wing Commander would authorize it, just from the liability aspect(who would pay for it, if there was a screw up).
Quote from: wwiijunky7 on March 25, 2012, 11:01:17 PM
Now I realize there has been 1 thread about this already but it was awhile back...anyways how many people out there believe ONLY Senior members should be aloud to carry firearms (Pistol) as long as they pass a pre-qual set up by the wing or national level, and there state allows it? It also has to be open carry not closed! Plus only during Emergency Services operations. Any ways I believe they should, anybody else?
[/quote
I work as a paramedic in a bad area, and I have no need to urge to carry............why would a CAP SM ever need to carry? Give an example where it would make a difference.
All things being equal, an armed CAP is not something I see happening. Our mission does not call for it for what we currently do.
In fact, there are few situations at present that would require such need for a weapon. We do not need to use deadly force to guard our assets. Very few mission bases...correction, NO MISSION BASES, for SAR and other activities are in danger of being "over run." On rare occasions where an ELT mission stumbles upon DRUG TRAFFICKERS, or the like, with automatic weapons it is unlikely that a hand gun would do more than draw fire to a group of CAP seniors and cadets resulting in casualties.
There is a greater chance that someone would occasionally be injured in an accident involving a fire arm, ending the program.
One would have to end this thought process looking to find a specific reason to carry the weapon as part of a CAP activity?
However, and this is speculative, if at some future time the mission were widened to something that might require it...I think that would be dependent on far to many caveats to post here.
Well, you never know. Who would have guessed that the department of education would be federally armed? How about the armed branch of the library of Congress? Here is a more complete list:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/03/robert-farago/full-list-of-armed-federal-agencies/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/03/robert-farago/full-list-of-armed-federal-agencies/)
Major Lord
All federal agencies has Special Agents. Usually for fraud and internal security specific to their own areas. I although I think some are pretty lame.......
God help you if the US Office of Fisheries department of law enforcement gets a hold of you!
Off topic:
Many of those in particular are not investigators/special agents (1801s, 1811s etc), but rather Federal Police Officers (0083s).
They get training (most of them) at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, and it is mainly a armed security force role they take in protecting buildings and properties (they do a lot more of course, but that's the basic of it). For example, FBI property is protected by the "FBI Police" which is different from FBI Special Agents. Similar to Uniformed Division of Secret Service vs Secret Service Special Agents. The Library of Congress, the US Mint, the Smithsonian Zoo etc etc most have somesort of Armed Police-Security force (US Mint Police, Library of Congress Police etc).
-----
Back on topic, the topic of arming CAP members has been beaten to death already. Someone's ORM is off the charts when going into an area with attacking vampires.
^I am my agencies 1033 Program head. I will work on procuring CAP some Jungle Mod M-60E3's. I think we should have a ribbon for it to. Everything always comes full circle to a uniform thread!
Quote from: spacecommand on March 31, 2012, 05:22:37 PM
Back on topic, the topic of arming CAP members has been beaten to death already. Someone's ORM is off the charts when going into an area with attacking vampires.
Vampires? Everyone knows zombies are a greater threat. ;) Even FEMA
http://blog.fema.gov/2011/05/from-cdc-preparedness-101-zombie.html (http://blog.fema.gov/2011/05/from-cdc-preparedness-101-zombie.html)
I will concede, however, that CAP should consider the ORM impact of flying near migratory routes used by vampires in bat-mode.
Arming CAP? CAP membership does nothing to increase or decrease anyone's need to be armed.
Heck, I even recall at least one police departments that wasn't armed: CA State Hospital Police. I thought they were nuts (no pun intended), but that's how they operated. I recall some investigators that weren't armed either...county welfare fraud investigators in a county I used to work for.
Quote from: Flying Pig on March 31, 2012, 06:22:31 PM
^I am my agencies 1033 Program head. I will work on procuring CAP some Jungle Mod M-60E3's. I think we should have a ribbon for it to. Everything always comes full circle to a uniform thread!
My commander lets us wear ABUs w/ tan boots when we use our M-60s. Uniform thread now
I don't know where you live, but we have vampires on our ORM. And zombies.
Kidding
Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.
Quote from: SarDragon on March 31, 2012, 07:54:25 PM
Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.
Might be the point of these latest posts....one "nuclear option" in a forum with strict moderators is to derail the thread and then purposely cause a lock.
In any case, if any ZOMBIES arise out of the cemetery near our school or an armed NCLB (No CHILD LEFT BEHIND...known as and pronounced "NICKELBY") Officer from the Department of Education shows up for summary executions (executions of FEDERAL LAW that is...)...well, the cadets are well prepared for "the long haul. lol
Quote from: wuzafuzz on March 31, 2012, 06:33:13 PM
Quote from: spacecommand on March 31, 2012, 05:22:37 PM
Back on topic, the topic of arming CAP members has been beaten to death already. Someone's ORM is off the charts when going into an area with attacking vampires.
Vampires? Everyone knows zombies are a greater threat. ;) Even FEMA
http://blog.fema.gov/2011/05/from-cdc-preparedness-101-zombie.html (http://blog.fema.gov/2011/05/from-cdc-preparedness-101-zombie.html)
I will concede, however, that CAP should consider the ORM impact of flying near migratory routes used by vampires in bat-mode.
Arming CAP? CAP membership does nothing to increase or decrease anyone's need to be armed.
Heck, I even recall at least one police departments that wasn't armed: CA State Hospital Police. I thought they were nuts (no pun intended), but that's how they operated. I recall some investigators that weren't armed either...county welfare fraud investigators in a county I used to work for.
Well hey...in CAWG dont CAP Pilots have to do some sort of ORM if they are going to just fly NEAR a restricted area? All its going to take is for one CAP plane to kill a California Condor and its all over kids. I guess CAP forgot that your actually allowed to fly right up to them :)
Rules to remind us of the rules are awesome!
mmmm Condor Burgers....
Zombies popping out of a grave in a cemetery is stuff you see in Hollywood. A cemetery might be one of the calmer places during a zombie apocalypse. (In theory, rotting corpses would have a heck of a time crawling out of a casket with six feet of dirt on top of them).