After standing at Parade rest for 5 minutes durring the change of command cerimony you have your first cadet pass out from the heat on the tarmack. And 4 minutes later you loose your 2nd one.
And it only got up to 126 degrees durring the daytime....
They just don't build cadets like they used to...
You know you're not adequately supervising your cadets when...
Quote from: Cmdbuddy on July 28, 2005, 02:41:27 PM
You know you're not adequately supervising your cadets when...
Good Try.
We had Wing staff there "supervising" the Group Staff who were supervising the Squadron Staff who were suppervising me while I was watching my cadets.
But you will be pleased to know that NEITHER of my cadets made it to the ground before I caught them!!
I saw the (bob & weave) and was "Johnny On The Spot" to take them out of formation.
Nevertheless everyone there was quite surprised at how few minutes it took them to drop out while not standing at attention...
Hydration was administered orally followed by copious quantities of Cake and Ice Creme to celebrate the change of command. The stricken Cadets bounced back in no time at all and were active participants in the rest of the evening's activities.
Nice try. Heat injuries can be prevented. A few thoughts:
1.) Why was the change of command ceremony held outside? Was it possible to hold it inside?
2.) Properly supervising the cadets means to be aware of the safety issues. They should have been properly hydrated BEFORE they passed out, not after. Also, if you knew it was that hot outside, there should have been proper amount of rest inside between things outside. A water break should have been supervised, ensuring that the cadets drank enough water for their time spent outside.
3.) If you knew it was that hot outside, there was no time for an adequate break, and you couldn't hold it inside, then the change of command ceremony should have been postponed- cake and all. Safety first.
4.) Parade rest is just a modified position of attention. If you were really concerned with them, they should have been put at ease. Also, uniforms should have been taken into consideration- they should have debloused at least.
5.) Finally, why did the change of command ceremony take so long? All of the ones I've seen take 2 mins, max.
Sorry- you've hit a sensitive spot with me. After seeing a cadet have a heat stroke at Encampment several years ago, I'm extremely sensitive to heat related injuries.
Quote from: Cmdbuddy on July 28, 2005, 11:23:02 PM
Nice try. Heat injuries can be prevented. A few thoughts:
1.) Why was the change of command ceremony held outside? Was it possible to hold it inside?
Utterly Impossible.
Our sqaudron meets in a 1953 Single Wide Trailer, that has room for about 75% of our Cadets and none of the seniors.
On nights when we have full attendance, we can not house everyone, let alone visitors.
2.) Properly supervising the cadets means to be aware of the safety issues. They should have been properly hydrated BEFORE they passed out, not after. Also, if you knew it was that hot outside, there should have been proper amount of rest inside between things outside. A water break should have been supervised, ensuring that the cadets drank enough water for their time spent outside.
So you allow the cadets NO PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to take care of themselfs BEFORE they arrive at the meeting.
Meeting started promptly at 19:00 hrs.
They fell into formation, change of command began immeadiately and they started dropping within minutes.
When should they have rested???
When should they have been given a water break??
3.) If you knew it was that hot outside, there was no time for an adequate break, and you couldn't hold it inside, then the change of command ceremony should have been postponed- cake and all. Safety first.
For where WE live, it wasn't all that hot.
Not even close to the HIGH temps we have seen in the last week or two.
The cadets were IN the shade and I would guess the temps were in the low 100s, whereas everyone who lives here in Havasu was just in the HIGH 120's last week.
We live in a BRUTAL climate, its just a fact of life out here that everyone has to deal with, Cadets included.
4.) Parade rest is just a modified position of attention. If you were really concerned with them, they should have been put at ease. Also, uniforms should have been taken into consideration- they should have debloused at least.
Its a lovely idea to deblouse all of our female cadets.
But in this PC society, having HOT SWEATY young ladies with their clingly WET T-SHIRTS showing all of their femine physique is not a really good idea. We have choosen not to go that route...
5.) Finally, why did the change of command ceremony take so long? All of the ones I've seen take 2 mins, max.
AWARDS.
Sorry- you've hit a sensitive spot with me. After seeing a cadet have a heat stroke at Encampment several years ago, I'm extremely sensitive to heat related injuries.
As a Combat Medic in the 82nd Airborne, I have seen MANY MANY MANY heat related injuries.
Its an inevitable fact of life when your working in High Heat and High Humidity.
And right now, we have quite a lot of both here in Havasu.
Sure, we could terminate all cadet activities from Mid June through Mid September while the temps at night never get below 100 degrees, but we don't.
We all learn to deal with the heat.
The example that I posted just goes to show you, that even people that live in it day in and day out, are still suseptable to it. The key is in how you deal with it after it happens.
Quote from: abysmal on July 28, 2005, 11:39:57 PM
Quote from: Cmdbuddy on July 28, 2005, 11:23:02 PM
Nice try. Heat injuries can be prevented. A few thoughts:
1.) Why was the change of command ceremony held outside? Was it possible to hold it inside?
Utterly Impossible.
Our sqaudron meets in a 1953 Single Wide Trailer, that has room for about 75% of our Cadets and none of the seniors.
On nights when we have full attendance, we can not house everyone, let alone visitors.
I'll buy that
2.) Properly supervising the cadets means to be aware of the safety issues. They should have been properly hydrated BEFORE they passed out, not after. Also, if you knew it was that hot outside, there should have been proper amount of rest inside between things outside. A water break should have been supervised, ensuring that the cadets drank enough water for their time spent outside.
So you allow the cadets NO PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to take care of themselfs BEFORE they arrive at the meeting.
Meeting started promptly at 19:00 hrs.
They fell into formation, change of command began immeadiately and they started dropping within minutes.
When should they have rested???
When should they have been given a water break??
Sorry, every change of command ceremony that I have witnessed has happened at the END of a meeting. That's what I was assuming. Maybe a safety briefing about heat related injuries is in store so that they know how to keep themselves safe prior to a meeting.
3.) If you knew it was that hot outside, there was no time for an adequate break, and you couldn't hold it inside, then the change of command ceremony should have been postponed- cake and all. Safety first.
For where WE live, it wasn't all that hot.
Not even close to the HIGH temps we have seen in the last week or two.
The cadets were IN the shade and I would guess the temps were in the low 100s, whereas everyone who lives here in Havasu was just in the HIGH 120's last week.
We live in a BRUTAL climate, its just a fact of life out here that everyone has to deal with, Cadets included.
I disagree. You shouldn't have to deal with- you should adapt.
4.) Parade rest is just a modified position of attention. If you were really concerned with them, they should have been put at ease. Also, uniforms should have been taken into consideration- they should have debloused at least.
Its a lovely idea to deblouse all of our female cadets.
But in this PC society, having HOT SWEATY young ladies with their clingly WET T-SHIRTS showing all of their femine physique is not a really good idea. We have choosen not to go that route...
1.)Their tshirts shouldn't be form fitting. 2.) Shouldn't be an issue- deblousing them anyways. 3.) The cadets were at parade rest- they shouldn't have been looking around anyways ;D
5.) Finally, why did the change of command ceremony take so long? All of the ones I've seen take 2 mins, max.
AWARDS
Sorry- you've hit a sensitive spot with me. After seeing a cadet have a heat stroke at Encampment several years ago, I'm extremely sensitive to heat related injuries.
As a Combat Medic in the 82nd Airborne, I have seen MANY MANY MANY heat related injuries.
Its an inevitable fact of life when your working in High Heat and High Humidity.
And right now, we have quite a lot of both here in Havasu.
Sure, we could terminate all cadet activities from Mid June through Mid September while the temps at night never get below 100 degrees, but we don't.
We all learn to deal with the heat.
Good, as a medic, I'm sure you're aware that heat injuries are preventable. If we spent a few hours on them in First Responder Class, I'm sure you spent a lot more time learning about them. So this isn't a matter of ignorance for you, it's a matter of not paying much attention to it.
I'm not suggesting that you suspend the activities. The majority of my cadet career was in a squadron in New Orleans, LA. You have dry heat. We have wet heat. Several years of that time was spent as Cadet Commander, and I had to
modify our schedule during the hot months. More time doing classwork work, more breaks during drill and stuff. It's a safety issue, and it should be handled appropriately.
Does anyone have boxing gloves........?? ;D
Quote from: Cmdbuddy on July 28, 2005, 11:23:02 PM
Sorry- you've hit a sensitive spot with me. After seeing a cadet have a heat stroke at Encampment several years ago, I'm extremely sensitive to heat related injuries.
Yes, to the point you have lost your objectivity. The situation described is common and the corrective actions were appropriate. Trying to paint the original poster as somehow negligent is uncalled for.
Quote from: PA Guy on July 29, 2005, 04:29:30 AM
Yes, to the point you have lost your objectivity. The situation described is common and the corrective actions were appropriate. Trying to paint the original poster as somehow negligent is uncalled for.
I don't think I've painted him as negligent. I believe that it is something that needs to be talked about- how to prevent having cadets pass out in formation. It happens a lot (as you said), and in my opinion, too often. And having people pass out is not a good thing- parents don't like that too much. So why not talk about the things that can be done to prevent it? The things I have said don't only apply to him and his situation, but to everybody- whether it's a summer Encampment or a squadron meeting. Thanks for your opinion, though, and welcome to the boards!
Quote from: PA Guy on July 29, 2005, 04:29:30 AM
Quote from: Cmdbuddy on July 28, 2005, 11:23:02 PM
Sorry- you've hit a sensitive spot with me. After seeing a cadet have a heat stroke at Encampment several years ago, I'm extremely sensitive to heat related injuries.
Yes, to the point you have lost your objectivity. The situation described is common and the corrective actions were appropriate. Trying to paint the original poster as somehow negligent is uncalled for.
Hmmmm....I've lived in AZ. I think many (not all) CAP units/activities are under the assumption that just because they live there that they are used to the weather. It's a dangerous situation.
Don't get your shorts in a bunch. Neither was being very objective. You have a problem with one of the posters, take it to PM. I don't think we need to start hurling insults. Personally, I think having an opinion is good.
Sigh..
This was not were I had planned on this thread going.
But since it is.
Allow me to shed some additional light..
The Cadet's Parents where there as well.
I would say they were standing about 5-10ft from Junior when he started to do the Bob & Weave. They did nothing, I caught the Cadet the moment I saw him begin to move and walked him out of formation over to the shade where I sat him down and gave him plenty of ice water.
A couple minutes later one of the female cadets did the exact same thing. Once again daddy was right there and didn't see a thing, he was standing beside me, perhaps 5ft from his daughter. I saw her start to so the wobble and caught her and took her from the formation and over to the shade for the same treatment. A moment or two latter and the whole cerimony was over and the formation was dismissed.
This whole episode took all of maybe 10 minutes from start to finish.
The rest of the night the cadets spent in a variety of physical activities outside running and playing, just having a typical good time on a night off when there was nothing in particular to do enjoying a typically lovely evening here in Havasu. Though all of them were drenched in sweat by the end of the night there were NO other heat related injuries of any kind. They Ate, they Drank, they played hard and had a great time, and the 2 Wobblers joined right back in after a few minutes and also had no further relapses.
Based on that, in my oppinion both incidents were in fact not precipitated by the heat, so much as by the cadets NOT KNOWING how to stand in formation properly. My best gutt feeling is that this was a case of LOCKED KNEES, and not a directly related Heat injury.
Neither of the affected cadets displayed any of the classic sighs of Heat Stroke. In both cases recovery was near instant, and both returned to FULL levels of normal cadet activity shortly thereafter.
Those darn locked knees show up at concerts as well even in the dead of winter in Wisconsin.... the choir director is always telling the kids new to choir about the child who fell off the risers from the back row. It was not a pretty sight!
Quote from: abysmal on July 29, 2005, 05:55:07 PM
Based on that, in my oppinion both incidents were in fact not precipitated by the heat, so much as by the cadets NOT KNOWING how to stand in formation properly. My best gutt feeling is that this was a case of LOCKED KNEES, and not a directly related Heat injury.
That was my next question... sorry if it came off as if I was lecturing you or anything. Wasn't the case, just wanted to throw out my opinion.
Quote from: Cmdbuddy on July 29, 2005, 09:54:39 PM
That was my next question... sorry if it came off as if I was lecturing you or anything. Wasn't the case, just wanted to throw out my opinion.
NOT a problem.
I had meant this whole thing just to be a light hearted comment on how hot is it here.
But it raised some serious issues that are never bad to discuss in an open forum.
Better that we should all be so concerned for the wellfare of our Cadets!!
Quote from: abysmal on July 30, 2005, 12:22:30 AM
I had meant this whole thing just to be a light hearted comment on how hot is it here.
Yeah know...I spent three years stationed in Tucson, AZ. It never was (or at least felt) as hot as the three month I spent in Bahrain. Of course in Bahrain it was 124 in the shade with 100% humidity (and no rain at all). Plus we walked most of the places we went, and had marginal air conditioning in the tents. Yet somehow you get used to it after a while... :-\
There is certainly a degree of adaptation or acclimatization that occurs.
When I moved here from Colorado I thought I would die.
Three years later and I can tollerate the cold at all, and 100 degrees is a cool temp.
Its gotten so bad now that When the pool gets down below 85, its COLD and none of the kids what to play in it.
Heck, the lake itself is approaching 94 degrees right now.
FOLLOW UP.
Last night we had our weekly meeting.
Just as hot as last week.
With a little admonition my cadet staff institued STRICT water breaks every 15 minutes for all outdoor activities and de-bloused the whole cadet squadron.
No heat related causualites were reported... ;D
It's standing squadron policy (not many follow it...) here that you must have at least one, if not two canteens with you at every meeting and CAP activity. I don't like to take the time necisarily to stop every X number minutes for a water break. Instead, I like to foster an environment of SELF DISIPLINE FOR ONE'S OWN CARE as far as it comes to water and such at squadron meetings. It's only two and a half hours, for heaven's sake. That's like a normal workshift at NBB. There, if you didn't take the responsibility to hydrate yourself and you got dehydrated, it was YOUR OWN fault.
That's kind of how I feel on the whole matter.
you know it's hot when...
Before Closing 75% of the cadets ask permission to; stand outside, get a drink, or just hit the ground at the position of attention.
(http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/images/smilies/bump.gif)
Personal responsibility is important, but as adults we have a duty of care that requires we do more than push cadets to take care of themselves.
Sometimes this means canceling or altering an event instead of pushing cadets past their limit. Imagine if one of those cadets had died of heat related illness, a complication, or simply hitting his head when he fell (happened at last Spring encampment, passed out in formation and hit head hard). How important would it have seemed to have the cadets watch a flag be passed then?
Saying parents were close and did nothing isn't fair to them, they look to us to run the event and it wouldn't be proper to expect them to be bumping into formation to check if Cadet Janey or Johnny is hot. That's our job! They shouldn't be out there to start with.
This is similar, but not as extreme as the Boy Scouts last year. During the week of their Jamboree, something like 4 adults died and 300+ members were taken to the hospital with heat related illness waiting for POTUS to speak.
What, for crying out loud, is the BSA's threshold of "maybe it's time we went home"?
10 deaths and 400 hospitalizations? Bear in mind this wasn't disaster relief or a similar function - this is basically just a convention, one which has a history of this kind of nonsense.
...when a cadet says, "Sir, may I get a drink of water?" Then drops. The captain he said it to didn't even have time to respond.
The captain he said it to should have been paying better attention and making sure the cadets were drinking water.
He was locking his knees, but other than that, it was a regular meeting and we were just standing around in a circle talking about aerospace or something. It was supposed to be a 5 min. max talk.
Mistake #1:(obvious)
Quote from: footballrun21 on January 11, 2006, 02:32:58 AM
He was locking his knees
Mistake #2: Actually believing a short discussion in CAP will
ever be short :D
Quote from: footballrun21 on January 11, 2006, 02:32:58 AM
It was supposed to be a 5 min. max talk.
Just to throw something out there, sometimes things can't really be prevented.
At NCR encampment 04, I was a flight sergeant. During our graduation, I was posted at the back of the flight, and our flight commander was posted at the front. Then, something UNEXPECTED happened, which threw a lot of preemptive measures down the toilet. The ANG Gen who was speaking to us decided to go into her life story and whatnot, and our command not realizing that she would take this long, had left us at attention.
I did my best to try to keep an eye on the flight, but there was only so much I could see, especially since they weren't facing me, and the commander at the front was faced the other way. When the flight sergeant in the flight next to us dropped, I started moving around a little to try to see if anyone was about to drop. They did. Two of them. At the same time.
So yeah, the parade went on without us as they stepped over the fallen cadets... the command given, I believe, was:
"ForeWARD, avoid the INJURED, HARCH!" :D
So yeah... sometimes its hard to prevent these things, but no one was injured. They just locked their knees up (like we had specifically told them not to do). Sometimes things happen. Murphey's law, yaknow?
I had two cadets almost fall out on me Monday night. I just happened to be in the area...it obviously wasn't my flight. I was in the basement of the former 8th Air Force HQ building where the squadron meets, and the cadets were in formation (standing at ease, no less) listening to one of those short speeches. It was hot down there, no circulating air, and they had been standing there for 10-15 minutes already.
One cadet raised her hand and said she was about to pass out. I helped her out. When she was ready to rejoin the flight, I was keeping an eye on her and suddenly I noticed the cadet beside her was wobbling. Next thing I know he's going down, but luckily the C/CC and I were able to catch him right before his knees made contact with the ground (I don't think I've ever crossed a room that fast...not even during the shuttle run). Something tells me had we not caught him, his knees would have been injured moderate to severely. I got him fixed up and back up to speed, but what surprised me was how everyone who should be trained in how to deal with simple passing-out/overheating just stood around with a blank look on their face.
...When at encampent, the base is under black flag conditions for 2 days and everything is done indoors. :o
I was an inflight cadet back in 2003 NYWG encampment and for the final formation we wore blues in mid to high 90 degree weather and i know by the time the ceremonies ended we had several down because of the heat.
Is it the wool pants that does it?
...members of the audience at graduation start dropping...
Quote from: ThorntonOL on June 17, 2008, 08:51:40 PM
I was an inflight cadet back in 2003 NYWG encampment and for the final formation we wore blues in mid to high 90 degree weather and i know by the time the ceremonies ended we had several down because of the heat.
Is it the wool pants that does it?
Probably more like not being accustomed to the heat. I'm in Florida and have had to (along with several other people) wear Service Dress recently, pretty much all in the ninties, and very, very humid. Definately not fun, but none of us have had any problems. I had a cadet pass out in formation yesterday, but he was locking his knees. His Flight Sergeant caught him before he hit the ground and a senior member took care of him. He was fine after a few minutes.
QuoteYou know its HOT when...
Your UnderArmor goes on strike
The polish melts out of your boots
You can use a horizontal stabilizer as a griddle to fry up breakfast
The glaze melts off the senior members' donuts
Senior members give up coffee and opt for an iced frappuchino
You march double time to keep from burning your boots on the tarmac
You have to tell a C/2Lt to stop burning C/Amn with a magnifying glass
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on June 19, 2008, 04:26:14 AM
You have to tell a C/2Lt to stop burning C/Amn with a magnifying glass
Doesn't need to be hot to do that, just a sunny day. 8)
Quote from: SarDragon on June 19, 2008, 04:49:01 AM
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on June 19, 2008, 04:26:14 AM
You have to tell a C/2Lt to stop burning C/Amn with a magnifying glass
Doesn't need to be hot to do that, just a sunny day. 8)
...and both will make it worse ;D
Sorry, but if the kids were dropping in formation in less than 10 minutes, it was locked knees and not dehydration.
Lemme tell you about my introduction to Water intoxication. Never knew it existed until one cadet officer at encampment buys a new Camelback and in an effort to stay hydrated downs 10 (TEN), yes, I said Ten, as in all your fingers, refilled bladders in one afternoon and evening, no trips to the bathroom.
By 0100 (he's acting CQ watch commander) he's out of it and an instant NCR encampment legend.