If you were a gambling man...

[Grumpy]

You do know there is no requirement for seniors to advance right? And that hardly motivates cadets. You are right about the CGAUX having a mission. Unlike the fond memory of the missions CAP used to have.

I guess we don't need your services then anymore....thanks for contributing.

I got to go plan a cadet leadership week end, get ready for my next SAREX, prep the ground equipment to support a Broken Arrow Exercise, and clear my schedule for the next Green Flag Mission.

Good night.

Ye gad, do they still have Broken Arrows and Bent Spears? A little SAC talk there.

[lordmonar]

You do know there is no requirement for seniors to advance right? And that hardly motivates cadets. You are right about the CGAUX having a mission. Unlike the fond memory of the missions CAP used to have.

I guess we don't need your services then anymore....thanks for contributing.

I got to go plan a cadet leadership week end, get ready for my next SAREX, prep the ground equipment to support a Broken Arrow Exercise, and clear my schedule for the next Green Flag Mission.

Good night.

Ye gad, do they still have Broken Arrows and Bent Spears? A little SAC talk there.

We still got the nukes.....we still got to exercise. 

[Brad]

I keep meaning to go see the Broken Arrow here in town:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Bluff,_South_Carolina#Nuclear_bomb_accident

[Eclipse]

Ned,

Lawyering around the question, re-framing it as "need", etc., etc., just shows the typical response
that these members get whenever the issue is brought up. 

Those members do the same, if not more work for CAP, and their efforts and involvement should
be respected equally, including their choice to wear a service coat.

The majority of the adult membership is not allowed to wear the USAF style uniform because
of being too heavy.  I stand by that based on personal experience, not to mention plenty of anecdotal
evidence.

When NHQ starts pushing enforcement on the standards we have, you can start reshaping the
question, etc.  Until then, it's irrelevant, since clearly it's not a priority.

"Saying it's important", etc., etc., flies in the face of evidence right in front of us
and a years of the same to the contrary.

[Panache]

Heck, our last national commander wore corporates.  I don't remember anyone calling her a second class citizen.  Certainly, she never self-identified as such.  Last time I looked at a command council meeting, almost half of the wing commanders were wearing corporates.  I've never heard them complain about being second class citizens.

And that seems to have gone by the wayside when BG Carr took the office.  He wears the AF-blues (as he appears to be within the regulations), and so does everybody else around him (whether they are in regs or not.)

The CAP leadership -- rather than being the villains in this drama -- actually deserve credit for creating professional, military style uniforms for members restricted from the AF-style.

Sir, I think we have drastically different definitions of what the phrase "professional, military style uniform" means.

[Garibaldi]

Ned...not taking into account empty shirts and 000 (10% of SMs)...you really think only 10% have a need for a service coat?

Actually, I think 10% is generous.  I didn't get one until I was an encampment commander.  Certainly few, if any, members need it at the squadron level, and over 90% of our seniors work at the squadron level.

It is expensive, about $180 at the exchange website.  Of course, some folks get it for free from a friend or a CAP source.  And how often would the average squadron person wear it, even if they bought one?  Three time a year, maybe?

I bought one new in 2001 or so, and I think I've worn it maybe 5 times? I even used it in Air Force ROTC more. Living in the South does have its benefits. Never even put on the long sleeve shirt and tie. I don't do ceremonies or anything that would require me to dress up anymore.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Ned...not taking into account empty shirts and 000 (10% of SMs)...you really think only 10% have a need for a service coat?

Actually, I think 10% is generous.  I didn't get one until I was an encampment commander.  Certainly few, if any, members need it at the squadron level, and over 90% of our seniors work at the squadron level.

It is expensive, about $180 at the exchange website.  Of course, some folks get it for free from a friend or a CAP source.  And how often would the average squadron person wear it, even if they bought one?  Three time a year, maybe?

Strange, I see a lot of cadets in service dress. I see a lot of squadron and group folks in service dress. At encampment, most of the SMs had service dress. At banquets/wing conferences I saw a lot of service dress. At a 10% rate, it would be quite a rare sight. At the rates I've seen them locally, in my wing, and in the Volunteer, I'd say you're well underestimating.

[Matt Kenyon]

18.5% of those voted have faith... Eighteen point Five percent have faith National will do something "right."

scary

No....18% have said that it will get done my 1 june.

"right" is a value loaded statement.

I would rather NHQ get it right....then get it "on time".

74.1% thing that NHQ is working hard at at...and with either be published 1 June or come back to field for more comments....Oh! And another 18.4% think it will happen....they just don't want to.

So...that is over 92.6% think NHQ is going to do it "right".

You have me there.

[Shuman 14]

If you can do that with just three uniforms (service, field, and flying), you will have done a better job than any of our armed forces (who each have about the same number of uniform combinations as we do).

LTC Lee,

I understand you are/were much closer to this problem than I am ever likely to be...

BUT

... for arguements sake, I would submit to you that two of the three (feild and flying) are already there. Its solely the service uniform that needs to be addressed.

Also, take the cadets out of the picture. Like JROTC, the uniform is the biggest recruiting draw. Let the kids continue to wear the USAF style serice uniform and the BDU and/or the ABU or the new "combine services" combat uniform.

As to the Senior Members, when the USAF changed service uniform coats and corporate did away with the CSU, there was a "sunset" period when old uniforms could be worn and then a drop dead date that you had to switch over.

I suggest that be done with the BDUs and the Sage Green flight suits give a reasonably long period to switch over and then make all Senior Members go to BBDUs and the blue flight suit.

Two of three complete. 

As to the Service uniform, pick something, be it blue, grey, tan, maroon and go with it. Again, give a reasonably long period to switch and allow both the USAF style and the white/grey uniforms to be worn and then all Senior Members switch to the one Service uniform.

I'm pretty fond of khaki tan as a uniform choice but others (i.e. Cyborg) have had other suggestions that are equally valid for discussion but the consensus is the uniform must have a service coat and headgear to make it equal to the current USAF style uniform.

[Shuman 14]

Sir, I think we have drastically different definitions of what the phrase "professional, military style uniform" means.

I concur. I have worn many different uniforms over the years (NROTC, USMC, US Army, USCGAux, several civilian police agencies and "numerous" private security uniforms) and I can tell that the CAP grey/white combo is NOT...

professional looking...

para-military in look and cut...

or even UNIFORM in wear and style!!! 

No two CAP members I have ever met, who were forced into grey/white, have ever worn the same cut/style of white shirt or the same cut/style and/or shade of grey trousers. 

[lordmonar]

The problem....If I may speak for Ned.......is that if we eliminate the USAF service, service dress and mess dress uniforms.....you will have just as many people complaining as you do as you currently have for those who can't wear USAF uniforms complaining about the lack of a service coat, a lack of a hat, inability to wear USAF ribbons, et al.

The NUC is in a [darn]ed if you do [darn]ed if you don't situation.

He was pointing out that the compromise is two uniform sets.

Every individual is going to have their preference.....and any change that does not reflect their personal opion is going to generate [censored]ing and moaning......hence the reason why the status quo has so much inertia.

So...we got four basic options.

1) leave everything alone and continue to hear the same complains that have been going on for years.
2) Switch everyone to the current corporate uniforms and increase the number of people who don't like gray, think it is too military, think it is not military enough, who think we are becoming too corporate, that the USAF hates us, that we are disrespecting the USAF, "CAP is telling me to pay for more uniforms", etc.
3) Switch everyone to USAF uniforms and we get complains of "now I got to give SCAMGUARD more money", pissing off USAF personnel (not CAP-USAF) because we are letting Fat and Fuzzies wear "their" uniform, people who think CAP is to military, people who think want to seperate CAP from the USAF, etc.
4)  Switch everyone to a NEW corporate uniform.....all the above arguments, plus those who think their pet color is much better then the one the NUC comes up with.

Ned tried to explain all this and he gets attacked for lawyering and be an apologist for NHQ.
We are all volunteers....the NUC as well as all of us.   We attack those problems that need to be attack and we have a chance to handle.

No wonder why NHQ is reluctant to get "feedback from the field" because it just makes things that much harder.

Add to that the elephantine memory some people have and we keep going back to arguments like "what happened to the CSU and why won't they let us see the source documents and decision making process".

Makes you want to scream sometimes.   

[Eclipse]

Every individual is going to have their preference...

Irrelevant.

It's a uniform, not a fashion statement.  If it's not "uni" it fails from zero.

It could also be handled incrementally for the uniforms >all< the membership actually needs.

Make the golf shirt the MBU, not the whites or the blues.

Swap over the field and flight uniforms to a single garment for all.

That eliminates a significant percentage of the problem, is acknowledgement from NHQ that this
is actually an issue vs. the current stance, and lastly...

...actually enforce the regulations as written, which frankly is the #1 actual problem.

Jan 1 every member affected has a choice, "weigh in or change their uniform" this is a
zero-cost initiative, already mandated by the regs, just ignored across the board.

Since there has not been a change to the standard in decades, no one will be caught
off guard, forced to incur any unnecessary expense, nor will their be any room for complaints,
since the rules are clear and simple.

Comments about "who's scale" are an attempt to distract, not a legitimate concern.
If it's a real issue, take $30k of that VG money and buy every unit a scale at Walmart.

[lordmonar]

Every individual is going to have their preference...

Irrelevant.

it's a uniform, not a fashion statement.  If it's not "uni" it fails from zero.

That's the only thing you are harping on?!?!

The problem with trying to get a single UNIFORM is that everyone has a different idea of what it should look like.

Should it be gray?  Should it be brown?  Should it be AF Blue?  Or should it be some other color?

That single question right there is going to end up with 3, 4, 5 different camps....and when the NUC chooses one.......the other four camps will be all butt hurt.

That's my point.

The NUC is going to favor the status quo because....at least they know what those butt hurt camps are going to say. 

[Eclipse]

Every individual is going to have their preference...

Irrelevant.

it's a uniform, not a fashion statement.  If it's not "uni" it fails from zero.

That's the only thing you are harping on?!?!

Obviously not, but it also can't be discounted.

The problem with trying to get a single UNIFORM is that everyone has a different idea of what it should look like.

Should it be gray?  Should it be brown?  Should it be AF Blue?  Or should it be some other color?

That single question right there is going to end up with 3, 4, 5 different camps....and when the NUC chooses one.......the other four camps will be all butt hurt.

That's my point.

The NUC is going to favor the status quo because....at least they know what those butt hurt camps are going to say. 

Leaders make the difficult decisions and hard choices which are ultimately best for the organization.

Look around at the other organizations that we constantly compare ourselves to, rightly or otherwise.
Most of them seem to have been able to figure this out, it's not rocket science.

And again, the decision about a uniform, has little to do with the issue of enforcement.
When you get to make rules for "other people" that you feel free to ignore, either for yourself
or those in your charge, it's a lot easier to just ignore the problem.

[lordmonar]

Well....then there you go.

NHQ via the NUC made the hard decision and decided to stick with the status quo with all its warts and issues.

Enforcement is another issue that I was not addressing in my comments....although...the NUC did address that by clearing up some of the ambiguities in the old 39-1. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

NHQ via the NUC made the hard decision and decided to stick with the status quo with all its warts and issues.

I do not call that "making the hard decision," by leaving a calcified position in place.

[lordmonar]

No
You would not because you disagree with the division and would have to accept that the NUC was doing their best with a crappy situation

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No
You would not because you disagree with the division and would have to accept that the NUC was doing their best with a crappy situation

Please tell me: what is "good" about the current situation?

[lordmonar]

No
You would not because you disagree with the division and would have to accept that the NUC was doing their best with a crappy situation

Please tell me: what is "good" about the current situation?

Well....I never said the current situation was "good"....but here is my WAG.


We don't simply kick out the fat and fuzzies.  We have some sort of "uniform" for them....BITD the only alternative was the blazer combo and the SMURF suit.

Remember your good, my good, the NUC's Good and CAP's good are all different things.  Which was my point.  Now way is the NUC going to make everyone happy......and they chose to keep the same batch of unhappy people instead of trading them for another bunch of unhappy people or increasing the number of unhappy people. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Master Sergeant, I believe you take the position you do because you are able to.

To my knowledge, and please correct me if I am incorrect, you are able to wear the USAF type uniform, and you do not have medical conditions prohibiting you from doing so.  I am glad for that.  I would not wish what I have on anyone.

I used to be able to.  Now I cannot.  I have a medical condition (medication side effects) that has made me gain way too much weight (and my doctor confirmed this is the cause).  I could stop taking the medication and watch the pounds drop off, but chances are if I did that my wife would be all-too-soon burying me.

To the best of my knowledge, other similar organisations (NSCC, CGAUX, even some SDF's) don't kick out "fat and fuzzies" either, nor do they put them in a separate uniform.

I have a useless uniform hanging in my closet...a uniform I was proud to wear...hanging alongside a uniform I loathe wearing.  If that sounds bitter, guilty as charged and no apologies given.

I feel no connection with the history of CAP, no connection with the Air Force, no connection with aviation, period, and certainly no esprit de corps with a colourless uniform.  Granted, it is marginally better than the former colourless uniform in that rank/badges can be worn on it...but the powers that be chose to keep the same colourless configuration.  Just a change of shirt colour and adding headgear would add a lot to it, but they say, "no, you can't have that."

I thoroughly disagree with your take that NUC did the best for the "overall good."  They killed a popular uniform for apocryphal reasons (Colonel Lee, I know you and I have discussed this privately) and absolutely refuse to make any changes to the present "alternative" uniform.

That is not "making the best compromise."  It is, at best, argumentum ad temperantiam, and, as some do, to blame it on the Air Force ("eek! any change we make will tick the Air Force off!), is again, at best, argumentum e silentio.

Evidence proves otherwise.  CAP instituted BBDU's and a blue flight/utility suit, which, while not universally popular, are nonetheless well-liked...and there is no confusion with the Air Force, even though the blue jumpsuit is virtually identical to a SAC missileer's suit (I know, I have one).

They have the ability and power to achieve an intelligent compromise, which will not please everyone (as you correctly said), though will likely certainly reduce the "batch of unhappy people."  I reject such a notion anyway...what good is there for an organisation to keep a subset of people who are unhappy and actively make them stay unhappy?

I was in the ANG.  I know how the military works: "do it/wear it/don't ask questions, etc."  My dad hated it when the Army switched from the Ike jacket to the green "Vietnam-era" service dress and wore his Ike until the last possible day he could (I have it in my closet) without disobeying orders.

When the Coast Guard switched from very-slightly-modified Navy uniforms to their current dress, they kept an eye on the history of the CG/Revenue Cutter Service and its other predecessors.  I have not met anyone in the CG who would want to go back to wearing Navy uniforms.

However, as many point out, CAP is not the military...we are a group of volunteers who give of our time, talent and (especially!) treasure.

To knowingly take actions that negatively impact esprit de corps is either just wrong or else beyond my ability to comprehend.

I realise that, just as Colonel Lee comes from the background of being a barrister and solicitor, I come from the seemingly-incongruous backgrounds of psychology (especially social psychology, as in Stanley Milgram) - trying to figure out the impact of action/lack of action on subsets/subcultures (and less so cultures as a whole) and information technology (where virtually everything is 1 or 0, on or off, "is" or "ain't").

Also, I attempt to employ Socratic questioning to get answers...even though answers may not be immediately present, or at all.

Asking probing questions can be annoying to those who do not share such a mindset.  I realise that, although it is not my intent to annoy (I do well enough with that on my own without trying!), and I will never intentionally demean someone else, whether on CT or in the "real" world.