PFT For Seniors

[JohnKachenmeister]

I agree with Dennis that we should have an officer PT test.  One which is age and mission appropriate.

[Pumbaa]

A senior PT test...  How do you make allowances for someone like me?  I can blow doors off the pushups and situps, but becuase of psoriatic arthritis I cannot run, nor stretch and reach. My weight is just at the top end of the USAF weight... (at least I still have the 10% to mess with)

[ZigZag911]

Gentlemen:

We have people who, for health reasons, could not pass a PT test in 100 years.

Yet they are contributing their knowledge, experience and intelligence....exercising leadership 'above & beyond', sometimes working through very real, chronic physical pain.

So let's see how many pushups, sit ups, bench presses and whatever else they can do, and by heaven, if they fail, they're OUT!

Why don't we leave this stuff for adults where it is job related?

FAA medicals for pilots; PFTs for GTL/GTM.

[ColonelJack]

Again let me say, I like the thoughts and feelings behind the idea of a Senior PT test. 

But ... if what we want is a lean, mean, efficient machine ... we already have that.  It's called the Air Force.  CAP members by definition are not AF members, thus they don't have to meet physical fitness standards.  (Unless, of course, they want to wear AF blues.  If not -- like me -- there are plenty of other uniform combinations to wear.)

I doubt a PT test for Seniors would fly, though.  As ZigZag911 hinted, if we did that, we'd lose a lot of people whose skills the organization needs.

Jack

[Guardrail]

Another point, too is that the State Defense Forces aren't required to do PT (though they have the option of doing so) and are still very effective at serving the community, state, and nation, just like CAP.

[DNall]

You know a CUL up at 3am working 12hrs on a stressful mission w/ lots of technical issues, that's can tax the body a bit. Put that on top of the 300lbs guy with two bypasses behind him & you're not being responsible to let that person make a contribution to CAP that endangers them in such a fragile condition. We require cadets to do PFTs, make exemptions for medical problems, but there is no mercy for the fat kid that just can't do it, and there shouldn't be no matter how hard they work on everything else.

I don't think there should be a PFT for adults. Sure as hell for GT, and a physical to be passed to do anything ES related. Scanner/Observer needs to account for the high endurance level required.

I do however think it's peper of us to care about the health & energy of our members. I think it's correct to run or even require a general fitness program, not a test, but a health & wellness program you can alter to your own situation. I don't have a problem if that's a condition of membership.

But ... if what we want is a lean, mean, efficient machine ... we already have that.  It's called the Air Force.  CAP members by definition are not AF members, thus they don't have to meet physical fitness standards. 

That's a cop out. The ANG isn't the full-time AF, why do they have to do PT. I mean it's the Air Force where they decide where to put the runway so it won't interfere with the golf course, where the majority of people's jobs can't even be legitimately called combat support. And what about those missle guys, I mean outside of some thumb wars, what physical fitness level is required for their job? Most of the things we do in CAP require a basic fitness level, some a lot higher than 95% of AF jobs. Even if the job isn't physically or emotionally exhausting, it requires energy, & that requires fitness to sustain.

Far as uniform standards. The chart we have now (along with that grooming diagram) seem to pre-date the consideration of body fat. I believe there used to be a waiver involved for that. I think the AF view has been that the 10% (I could have sworn it was 20%) covers that & people aren't missing the scale cause they're too muscle bound. I think you could get them to update the requirement though. I'd address that thru the HSO track to the AF surgeon general to endorse over to the uniform board. I think you could get some movement on that, and in conjuncitn with a fitness program of some kind I think you could get some more slack.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The officer fitness test would be a serious challenge to create.

We have officers ranging from age 18 through to senility.  We have no physical standards to join.  Can we require a walk or run when nowhere in CAP regulations are you required to have legs?

I do not want to impose additional cost or admin burdens to units and members, so if someone has a medical excuse, I cannot see requiring them to pay a doctor to write out a sick slip in a volunteer organization.

Plus, we have different folks performing different missions.  A ground team engages in some pretty vigorous activity, but an admin officer sits in a chair all day.  Is it fair to demand that the admin officer pass the same test as the Ground Team?

My solution, which you can all feel free to shoot at, because I'm not emotionally committed to this issue, is this:

Create a scale of performance points.  Time over a one mile course equates to certain point values.  Points can be earned through pushups or situps too.  Then establish points to pass based on age and gender, as well as mission assignment.  This way, you could name your own poison.  If you were not fast enough over the one mile to pass, drop for ten, and you got it.  If you are strong as a bull, drop for 35 and forget about the run and situps.

Maybe put a maximum age on it too.  Older than, say, 60 you would be "Grandfathered."  (Pun intended.) But no more ground team missions for you, Pops.  Not unless you pass the PT test anyway.

I think this would have to be written by some kind of exercise physiologist.  Don't let an old street cop like me write it.  My favorite exercise is the "12-ounce repetitive curl."  Pop the top and ...  EXERCISE! 

[lordmonar]

Why not just require a PT test for the GTM/GTL ratings and forget the rest.

That way we are only adding adminstrative work for the ES Officer and only for those who really need it.

As you say...for all the rest it will be great challange to develop a PT test that does not result in it either being pencil wipped or causing us to loose 75% of our membership.

[ZigZag911]

You know a CUL up at 3am working 12hrs on a stressful mission w/ lots of technical issues, that's can tax the body a bit. Put that on top of the 300lbs guy with two bypasses behind him & you're not being responsible to let that person make a contribution to CAP that endangers them in such a fragile condition.

I do however think it's peper of us to care about the health & energy of our members. I think it's correct to run or even require a general fitness program, not a test, but a health & wellness program you can alter to your own situation. I don't have a problem if that's a condition of membership.

I think you're suggesting limiting what an individual can do based on their health and general fitness...entirely reasonable, and a responsible attitude toward the individual, those serving with the person, and the accomplishment of the mission.

[ZigZag911]

.  My favorite exercise is the "12-ounce repetitive curl."  Pop the top and ...  EXERCISE! 

I like your views on "nutrition"!

The rest of it, not so much....

[arajca]

Look at some of the standards that are out there already in the NIMS world. each position either has been assigned an physical rating or will be. "None" is a valid rating. Most mission staff positions are either none or light. GT work would require a more intense level - I'm not sure which to use, though. With the "none" or "light" rating, you can reasonably rely on self certification.

[Major_Chuck]

Just cannon foder stuff here....

You're going to ask me to join your organization....oh yeah, then tell me the following....

1.  Pay membership dues.

2.  Buy my own uniforms.

3.  Pay for much of my own training out of pocket.

4.  Ask me to help pay squadron bills to offset lack of fundraising.

5.  Allow me to spend my own money for office supplies related to my CAP job.

6.  Require that I get in shape, most likely by joining Golds Gym and spending more $$$$ for CAP
volunteer membership.

just thinking out loud.

[Major_Chuck]

We should definately advocate a healthy lifestyle for our CAP Officer Corps.  But to require a PT test to participate.  I would have to disagree.

[DNall]

Well gees, I'm not trying to make a big deal out of this. I do think a health & wellness program (indiv executed, result reporting, mod events as neccessary to your needs, etc) is a nice requirement for membership. That does satisfy the light/none req from FEMA. The reason it got brought up though was as a supplement to an effort to update the ht/wt standards with body fat, and in conjunction with this it'd help create some additional slack so more people could wear the AF-style uniforms & promote the identity & loyalty to it... that's why I brought it up. Not tests or pushing people out.

Now that said, I have had senior members who physically couldn't sit thru a course & required medical assistnace to get past the four hour mark - no I wasn't teaching If I request an MRO from the NOC & they send me this person sight unseen, then I'm going to have to request another one which is going to waste time & increase my logistics footprint, and hopefully this person doesn't become a victim along the way. A basic & current (every couple years) physical (form to take with you to for your standard checkup) should be a requirement of any ES job. All that has to mean is you can work an 8hr office shift w/ standing/sitting/light lifting/data entry. I got no problem making that a requirement of membership. The last person to fallout on me was not an ES or cadet event. I need to know someone can keep up the energy level & not need pampering when they are applying to attend or staff any kind of event. Yeah, I think SOMETHING would be reasonable.

For more advanced ES stuff, FEMA defines the standards & we will execute them. They aren't unreasonable & do relate to the job. I don't know what if any standards they'll have for scanner/observer, but something would be appropriate there.

[RiverAux]

We will have to meet some physical requirements for ES participation as mentioned above. 

I see no need for a general PT test for seniors.  After all, if we're going to let the 350 lb guy join and wear the CAP corporate uniform, it makes no sense to then tell him to pass a PT test.

[Robert Hartigan]

What if there was another ribbon or a badge or both? I anticipate a new PT uniform only sold by vanguard in the works...

[DNall]

What if there was another ribbon or a badge or both? I anticipate a new PT uniform only sold by vanguard in the works...

That's just blatantly cynical with not even the slightest attempt to engage the logic.

[baronet68]

I am a strong advocate for this program: 

http://presidentschallenge.org/home_adults.aspx

While it's not a "PT Test", it is a good way for Officers to begin taking steps toward a new healty lifestyle and you get points for a lot of the stuff you already do, like mowing the lawn, gardening, housework, etc.  There is a lack of time constraints so you gather points as quickly (there is a daily maximum) or slowly as you want.  It takes out-of-shape people a little bit longer to collect their points.   

Here are a few of the activities allowed in the program that out-of-shape people can do for points:

• Billiards (you can sit down between shots)
• Croquet (you can sit down between shots)
• Darts (you can sit down between shots)
• Fishing (you can sit down between casts)
• Gardening (you can sit down while digging in the dirt)
• Household Tasks (you can sit down while folding laundry)
• Pedometer (for in between those times you're sitting down)
• Shuffleboard (you can sit down between shots)
• Stretching (you can sit down while stretching)
• Swimming (fat floats)

I believe the President's Challenge is probably the perfect pre-existing program for CAP Officers.

[A.Member]

We should definately advocate a healthy lifestyle for our CAP Officer Corps.  But to require a PT test to participate.  I would have to disagree.

I agree with that statement.   

To add to that a bit though, we have far to many members (just look at some of the comments on this board) that use their age as an excuse for their incredibly poor physical condition ("Well, at my age...", "I'm too old to...", etc.).  While I don't advocate a Senior PT program, it sure would be nice if members actually made the effort on their own to live a healthy more physical lifestyle rather than make excuses why they don't.  This of course isn't an issue unique to CAP - it's indicative our society as a whole. 

I'm not saying go out and run 3 miles daily at 6 minute mile clips - or even run at all.  I also don't think anyone is saying we should all be a chizeled set of warriors but we certainly shouldn't be confused for a patch of giant blueberries.  Simply take it upon yourself to make a reasonable effort to live a healthier lifestyle - better diet, some physical exercise.  It's not that difficult.  Not everyone in the organization should struggle just to fit into the van.  It could be argued that those members are actually a liability for several reasons.     

Regardless of which uniform a person wears, they represent the organization.  They should take pride in the wear of their uniform and do their best to always present the organization in a good light.  Physical condition/appearance play a significant role in this.  If someone doesn't think physical condition/appearance plays a role in that, well, then they simply don't have a clue.  Some also may think that's not "fair" but, hey, life's not fair.

[Ned]

I recently wrote a detailed staff study for the California SDF on this very subject -- attempting to define a PT standard and create a PFT for SDF members.  It many, many ways the issues that bedevil an SDF are the same for CAP.  (The average SDF  member is 51 years of age.)

It seemed obvious that a PFT should mirror mission requirements.  IOW, once you have a defined mission, it should be relatively easy to specify the minimum fitness level to accomplish the mission and develop a PFT so that commanders and senior leaders have some insight as to whether units can accomplish a given mission.  But of course the SDFs -- just like CAP -- have some difficulty pinning down their mission in a meaningful way.  It is normally formally stated as something like "Support the Guard," but in practice is really "be ready for anything from sitting in a TOC to sandbagging a river."

And like CAP, SDF members are essentially by definition older, larger, and less fit than our AD or Guard counterparts.  It is difficult or impossible to simply adopt the current Army or USAF PT tests for that reason.  Add to that the very real danger of injuring our members by simply conducting a vigorous PT test and you can begin to see the problem here.  And neither the SDF nor CAP has the resources to give every "over 40" member the recommended cardiovascular screening exam prior to giving a vigorous PFT.  Now add to the mix that CAP seniors would normally not be covered by any sort of CAP insurance while taking a routine PFT and you begin to see the scope of the problem.

After running the decision support template analyzing the various COAs and risks, I finally recommended that the SDF adopt the 2.5 Mile Walk Alternative Event from the Army's PFT.  Since it is a walking event, it seemed to offer the least risk to the members while having the advantage of validated standards for members 17-60 years of age.  See Chapter 14 of FM 21-20 (Army Physical Fitness Training).


Bottom line, it would be tricky but "within the window of do-ability" to develop a CAP officer PFT.  It would allow commanders and key leaders to assess our mission capability as well as allow officers a way to assess their own fitness levels.  We should do all we can to encourage healthy lifestyles for our members, regardless of age or condition.