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ABUs

Started by MadGrak, September 15, 2011, 05:14:12 AM

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Ned

You know, it is OK to say "Hmm, it looks like I overstated my position when I said 'No retired National Guard officers or NCOs are allowed to teach in the JROTC, and Reserve were allowed only recently.'"   ;)

Because Guard officers and NCOs are allowed to teach in JROTC.  You're right that AD types have priority in the Army JROTC program, as indicated in my link.  Not exactly the same thing as "No retired Guard Officers or NCO's are allowed," which was your position, I believe.

But you can look here where the AFJROTC folks indicate that retired Guard and Reserve Officers are eligible for their programs by law, and apparently on an equal footing with former AD folks.


Quote from: flyer333555 on November 18, 2013, 10:28:42 PM

I did not dwell on the reasons, so it was a bad conclusion of your part to say I think lower on Guard!

Hey, you were the guy pointing out that JROTC had "higher standards" since they did not use Guard officers or NCOs.  If I somehow misunderstood your point, I apologize.  But since your point was incorrect ab initio, perhaps we can both just move on.


QuoteThe fact remains that the military establishment trusts more on active or retired military personnel to wear the uniform in a better way than CAP members; that active or retired military personnel can carry the military tradition better than CAP personnel; and therefore they will allow JROTC personnel unrestricted, more or less, wear of digitized patterns before CAP personnel do.

Trust has nothing to do with it.  And never has.  Nor did anyone in the DoD reflect even for a moment on who could "better carry the military tradition." 

On what did you base your assertions?

I've posted several times that the AF has not indicated any problem with the general notion of CAP wearing ABUs.  The problem arose with a memo from the Office of the Secretary of Defense, which allowed the use of the ABUs for ROTC & JROTC, but did not mention CAP one way or another.

As part of my job, I have personally spoken with multiple AF senior officers and officials on this subject, and they unanimously believe that it was a simple oversight in the memo writing and approval process.  Which is why the incredibly bureacratic process of workithg through the Air Staff to the DoD is underway, but what with a war or two going on, is understandably very slow.

nmkaufman0

Believe it or not, when I'm in the general public in my BDU, some people actually think I'm active duty Air Force. It is hard enough to explain to them that I'm not active duty; let alone a civilian auxiliary. I'm a 15-year-old Cadet Airman. That problem would probably be even worse if I wore the ABU.
C/A1C Nathaniel Mark Kaufman
Thunderbolt Composite Squadron

nmkaufman0

According to my flight sergeant, we may never get the ABU.
C/A1C Nathaniel Mark Kaufman
Thunderbolt Composite Squadron

a2capt

..and unless your flight sergeant is on the uniform committee, offspring of the national commander, or some other fairly high level position .. (who wouldn't be talking anyway) then I hope you got a bottle of salt along with that statement. 

Panache

But you don't understand, a2capt.  He's a flight sergeant....

SarDragon

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

TexasCadet

I predict we will wear ABUs...wait, what was that expression? Something about hell freezing over...

PHall

And the clock is running... >:D

AlphaSigOU

Tick-tock... can't stop the lock clock! :D
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

a2capt

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on November 26, 2013, 06:08:25 PMTick-tock... can't stop the lock clock! :D
Is that all you know how to post?

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Ned on November 18, 2013, 11:07:07 PM
The problem arose with a memo from the Office of the Secretary of Defense, which allowed the use of the ABUs for ROTC & JROTC, but did not mention CAP one way or another.

A sin of "omission" rather than "commission?"
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

NIN

Quote from: CyBorg on November 26, 2013, 06:19:10 PM
Quote from: Ned on November 18, 2013, 11:07:07 PM
The problem arose with a memo from the Office of the Secretary of Defense, which allowed the use of the ABUs for ROTC & JROTC, but did not mention CAP one way or another.

A sin of "omission" rather than "commission?"

I tend to think that perhaps the coordinating party on the AF side didn't think about the whys and wherefores before they said "Yeah, works for the AF"

Read the memo yourselves.

http://www.acq.osd.mil/log/sci/MD/2008-001041-Disposition_Policy.pdf

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

ol'fido

Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Nearly Dark Side

I like not touching threads about ABUs until they are about 400 posts in, then reading the first and last page of posts and seeing how far the discussion has gone away from the topic.

VNY

Quote from: Ned on November 18, 2013, 11:07:07 PMAs part of my job, I have personally spoken with multiple AF senior officers and officials on this subject, and they unanimously believe that it was a simple oversight in the memo writing and approval process.  Which is why the incredibly bureacratic process of workithg through the Air Staff to the DoD is underway, but what with a war or two going on, is understandably very slow.

All this discussion because whoever wrote the memo didn't know CAP existed - or else forgot.

RogueLeader

Quote from: VNY on November 27, 2013, 08:07:39 PM
Quote from: Ned on November 18, 2013, 11:07:07 PMAs part of my job, I have personally spoken with multiple AF senior officers and officials on this subject, and they unanimously believe that it was a simple oversight in the memo writing and approval process.  Which is why the incredibly bureacratic process of workithg through the Air Staff to the DoD is underway, but what with a war or two going on, is understandably very slow.

All this discussion because whoever wrote the memo didn't know CAP existed - or else forgot.

Seeings as the specifically mention that we, CAP, were explicitly authorized to not only receive Woodland BDUs as well as the three color Desert Combat Uniform (DCU) I've got a feeling that they know we exist; again, just an oversight that takes a while to get corrected.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

TexasCadet

Quote from: VNY on November 27, 2013, 08:07:39 PM
Quote from: Ned on November 18, 2013, 11:07:07 PMAs part of my job, I have personally spoken with multiple AF senior officers and officials on this subject, and they unanimously believe that it was a simple oversight in the memo writing and approval process.  Which is why the incredibly bureacratic process of workithg through the Air Staff to the DoD is underway, but what with a war or two going on, is understandably very slow.

All this discussion because whoever wrote the memo didn't know CAP existed - or else forgot.

Two questions, VNY:

1. Why did you change the name?
2. What is "Occam's Razor"?

SARDOC

Quote from: RogueLeader on November 27, 2013, 08:11:24 PM
Quote from: VNY on November 27, 2013, 08:07:39 PM
Quote from: Ned on November 18, 2013, 11:07:07 PMAs part of my job, I have personally spoken with multiple AF senior officers and officials on this subject, and they unanimously believe that it was a simple oversight in the memo writing and approval process.  Which is why the incredibly bureacratic process of workithg through the Air Staff to the DoD is underway, but what with a war or two going on, is understandably very slow.

All this discussion because whoever wrote the memo didn't know CAP existed - or else forgot.

Seeings as the specifically mention that we, CAP, were explicitly authorized to not only receive Woodland BDUs as well as the three color Desert Combat Uniform (DCU) I've got a feeling that they know we exist; again, just an oversight that takes a while to get corrected.

Actually, If you read the memo a little more closely, you will see that it only indicates the Woodland Style BDU and not the Desert Three color DCU.

SarDragon

Quote from: TexasCadet on November 27, 2013, 08:29:16 PM
Quote from: VNY on November 27, 2013, 08:07:39 PM
Quote from: Ned on November 18, 2013, 11:07:07 PMAs part of my job, I have personally spoken with multiple AF senior officers and officials on this subject, and they unanimously believe that it was a simple oversight in the memo writing and approval process.  Which is why the incredibly bureacratic process of workithg through the Air Staff to the DoD is underway, but what with a war or two going on, is understandably very slow.

All this discussion because whoever wrote the memo didn't know CAP existed - or else forgot.

Two questions, VNY:

1. Why did you change the name?
2. What is "Occam's Razor"?

Knowing the second answers the first.

Occam's Razor states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Stated differently - the simplest answer is usually the best.

In this case, it wasn't. CAP was mentioned at one point in the memo.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

VNY

Quote from: SarDragon on November 28, 2013, 04:08:45 AMIn this case, it wasn't. CAP was mentioned at one point in the memo.

So CAP not being mentioned is not an assumption then.  It just makes the simplest answer something else, probably that they merely didn't think CAP needed the uniform and didn't anticipate this level of reaction to the decision.