ABUs

[NorCal21]

Haha, had to bring it back!

In all seriousness I don't have a problem with the current CAP uniforms. There's a few changes I'd like to see, but I think that can be said about any uniform, by any person, in any profession (military or not). Human nature. We all have personal likes and dislikes.

The only thing I'd really like to see changed deals with the patches. First, I'd like to see standardization with a requirement that something is worn or it isn't. I don't like the you can if you want thing. Sort of breaks with the definition of uniform. The second thing would be the cartoonish nature of some patches.

I understand the heraldry of it all, but look at the patches the Army and AF wore in WWII. They were often cartoonish if not flat out just cartoons. Over the years they have developed them into a professional look. I think CAP would look better with more professionally designed patches.

Final point... could you imagine how bad full color patches and blue tapes would look on ABUs or Multicams?

[That Anonymous Guy]

I agree with all your points. Out patches should be subdued.

[SarDragon]

I agree with all your points. Out patches should be subdued.

As opposed to 'in' patches?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Posters in these threads and specially on the uniform ones only look at the uniform they wore when they were in the service...

Are you guys aware of the combat uniform development history? When you say "Class A, Class B, etc." Did you know that until World War II happened, the American Soldier had only one uniform, changing between summer and winter grades, which he had to use to fight in the front, and when the front service was over, to use the same uniform with some more detailed or fancy items in the office?

How many of you guys know that the Service Coat was a modification of the blouse worn in the field in World War I but modified in 1927 by Army Chief of Staff MacArthur? That still in 1940 the US Army soldier was going to fight in it? That there were at least three modifications from 1940 to 1942 to allow for more mobility in the battlefield? And this item was relegated to the office when someone came with what I am not sure but is called a Parson's coat, which became a field jacket?

And last, the fatigue was not supposed to be a combat uniform, just work clothes, until 1941 when these fatigues, developed to be worn over the service uniform to protect it from damage, paint, grease and other junk? When soldiers wore fatigues from 1916 or so through 1941 was at times brown and at others, blue? That only in 1941 the Army came with the M41 HBT fatigues, and at this time they were starting to use it for combat?

I have to go on ranting. Sometimes I hear some of you commenting on "not using the lower pockets of the BDU or coat, they should not be carrying anything." Did you know what the greatest insult to the American soldier uniform, or so a captured German officer thought when he addressed General Mark Clark in Italy was?

"Your American uniforms are golf clothes!"

And when and if you dress in your BDUs, if you think they are baggy and unseemly, that they are not ironed, think of General Mark Clark's proud answer:

"We know and are proud of them."

Sorry for the rant.

[Edited to add] And why should our patches be subdued? Who says??? The Army did not "subdue" any patch until the Vietnam Conflict! Until then, the Army and the Air Force wore bright colored patches to the field. In all colors! Reds, whites, blues, gold... I do not have any of my Army uniform books out, they are all in storage. If anyone wants to read these books, I will look for the titles.

Flyer

[lordmonar]

Well good thing....times change....I think we would stupid in those puffed out trousers, campaign hats and gaiters they used to wear in WWI.

[AngelWings]

Well good thing....times change....I think we would stupid in those puffed out trousers, campaign hats and gaiters they used to wear in WWI.

That's why we should go with the Civil War uniforms! They're blue, they're grey, they make us look like we're so tough we have to buckle our hats on!

[Luis R. Ramos]

Lord and Angel, you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So Wise Ones, then tell me. Why do we roll our BDU sleeves up? So that we are cooled?

And why we do not see a World War II soldier with sleeves rolled up? Because that uniform was baggy creating a layer of air that protected soldiers from the heat so there was no need to roll their sleeves off.

Field uniforms are supposed to be functional and practical.

Functional and practical.

Functional and practical.

Baggy makes them functional in the field. Pockets make them practical. So why not use all pockets?

What I am getting at is that some of you posting here forgets the needs when discussing those uniforms. Read what NorCal posts. "WWII patches were cartoonish." They still  were functional and practical.

Numbered units? Two crossed bayonets in the shape of an X? If you understand math, the X is ten in Latin numerals. And a bayonet is an Infantry weapon. Oh, Tenth Infantry Division! Or four rays going up to a wing? Maybe "cartoonish," but still someone could make a connection to the Fourth Air Force...

Now I read that "CAP patches should be subdued." Why? Are we to come under fire? Who is going to be firing at us?!!

And no, I am not stating the military should go back and wear those uniforms of long ago. Lord, you missed one of the things the Army wore in WWI. Those soldiers never wore gaiters. Although gaiters were part of  the prescribed uniform, the soldiers were issued puttees to take to Europe. Different item. The puttees were rolled on/off like a bandage. The gaiters were laced! The US Army wore gaiters in WW II. And ditched the Campaign hats this war...

I have been wearing those gaiters since 2005 at least ten weekends of the year as I portray the US Army soldier of the 1940-1943 years as a National Park volunteer. I know what a pain in the behind they are...

Flyer

[Eclipse]

The 500 lb elephant in the room (literally and figuratively), is that by far, the vast majority of CAP "field uniforms" are never, ever, worn
in the field, so discussions that have any focus on those types of issues are meaningless in a CAP context.

And even for those members involved in ES, only a very small number ever actually get into any dirt or field situation that would remotely actually
require a "field uniform".  Camping and bivouacs within site of a Walmart don't count.  The kind of stuff they are presumably doing in OK, maybe.

Tac pants and a golf shirt with a decent jacket and boots are all the majority of missions require.

Anything else is an affectation of the paramilitary nature of CAP.   I'm not saying that's all bad, but that's what it is.

[lordmonar]

Lord and Angel, you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So Wise Ones, then tell me. Why do we roll our BDU sleeves up? So that we are cooled?

And why we do not see a World War II soldier with sleeves rolled up? Because that uniform was baggy creating a layer of air that protected soldiers from the heat so there was no need to roll their sleeves off.

Because times changed....back in the 40's one did not "roll up their sleeves" like we do today.....There are plenty of photos of GI with their shirts off thought....a lot more then we see today.

Field uniforms are supposed to be functional and practical.

Functional and practical.

Functional and practical.

Baggy makes them functional in the field. Pockets make them practical. So why not use all pockets?

Who said you can't use them....I never have...I've never been told you can't use them.

What I am getting at is that some of you posting here forgets the needs when discussing those uniforms. Read what NorCal posts. "WWII patches were cartoonish." They still  were functional and practical.

Numbered units? Two crossed bayonets in the shape of an X? If you understand math, the X is ten in Latin numerals. And a bayonet is an Infantry weapon. Oh, Tenth Infantry Division! Or four rays going up to a wing? Maybe "cartoonish," but still someone could make a connection to the Fourth Air Force...

Now I read that "CAP patches should be subdued." Why? Are we to come under fire? Who is going to be firing at us?!!

Because you forget the other use of uniforms.....unit identity....and with that goes the "fashion sense" of the age.   If we chose our field uniform for simply function and practical.....we would all be wearing hunter orange shirt and pants.   But we don't that is the "right look" for us as the auxiliary of the CAP.  So we want BDU's and full color stuff looks like Butt on camo.

And no, I am not stating the military should go back and wear those uniforms of long ago. Lord, you missed one of the things the Army wore in WWI. Those soldiers never wore gaiters. Although gaiters were part of  the prescribed uniform, the soldiers were issued puttees to take to Europe. Different item. The puttees were rolled on/off like a bandage. The gaiters were laced! The US Army wore gaiters in WW II. And ditched the Campaign hats this war...

I stand corrected......and?

I have been wearing those gaiters since 2005 at least ten weekends of the year as I portray the US Army soldier of the 1940-1943 years as a National Park volunteer. I know what a pain in the behind they are...

Flyer

And?

[AngelWings]

I've rolled my sleeves up for various reason:
Comfort
Uniformity
Following squadron uniform supplement
Avoiding getting grease, oil, stain, etc. on my sleeves
Aesthetics (presenting a neat appearance in public during the summer)

The Army and USMC do not roll up their sleeves anymore. The USAF and Navy roll up their sleeves still, but I've seen less and less of both services doing so. Look through photos of Afghanistan and Iraq, you can see that there are a lot less rolled sleeves versus rolled sleeves. A trend observed by all services. So moot point if you're talking about the general users of the uniforms. Also, their sleeves appear pretty baggy. I know mine are on both my BDU's and ACU's.

As for CAP, we roll our sleeves because we can. If we were told we couldn't than we wouldn't. I like short sleeves versus long sleeves, just a personal preference. I don't do it to stay cool. I was trained to keep my sleeves down so I conserve water and don't get too much sun exposure in the heat.

Nothing better than feeling breeze or air conditioning on your skin after a long day of work 

I think subdued patches would be better because why are we going to wear a tactical uniform (BDU or BlueDU) with full color patches, which just are not complementing to the colors of either uniform? We're a paramilitary style organization, we should look professional and at least matching.

[Duke Dillio]

In the Army BITD, you didn't roll your sleeves unless you were in garrison and that was the uniform of the day.  Most times, we kept our sleeves down.  In the field, your sleeves were down all the time.  This was to prevent the aforementioned sunburn, keep bugs off, keep you "camoed", and actually it made you feel cooler to keep the wrist buttons loose and let the air draft up around your arms.

As for the subdued patches, REALLY???

I would bet that one of the main reasons we don't wear subdued patches with the BDU's is so that we don't look like SWAT team members.  As an organization, we are trying to avoid looking hostile.  You start freaking out grandmothers when you march down the street in a "combat uniform," thus the name Battle Dress Uniform...  The only patch I have ever had issue with was the stupid dog ES patch.  I understand keeping tradition, staying with our roots, and all of that other jazz but it just looks Goofy..  (pun intended)...  Not to mention, when you show up to work with professional rescuers, police, fire, etc. it just makes you look less professional.  I am all for the CA wing GT uniform (orange top with blue pants) as that is what most search and rescue teams around here wear.  It is functional and practical.  People have their opinions though that they seem to think that this uniform isn't practical, not to mention not really official in most CAP wings.  At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what you look like but rather whether you can do the job and do it right.  I've seen military, police, firefighters, and all other type of uniformed people who look like scuzbags.  The ones who look like scuzbags but do their job correctly and quickly get more respect from me than the ones wearing brand spanking new uniforms but couldn't do their job with 12 people helping them...

[Luis R. Ramos]

Who said you can't use them....I never have...I've never been told you can't use them.

Maybe you do not... but I have seen at least 25 postings in here that we should not use the lower pockets of the BDU and field jacket.

I know that "times change." But your responses to my messages are summarized this way: "Times change... let's change for change's sake."

Again, there is no need to have subdued patches just because the military uses subdued patches.

You said the uniform can be used "to establish identity." Right, if that is the case, then why add that "patches should be subdued." Whose identity you really want to keep, attain? The USAF? The Army? Or is it that of CAP???

We achieve our own identity with the colored patches, the ultramarine blue tags on the BDU. We retain the connection to the military by wearing the BDU, the OG fatigues, the Blues, or in the future if it comes to that the ABU or ACU.

Too many in the public side have told me "you military guys" or similar words. Even when standing next to what is obviously a 12 or 13 year old wearing the same patches and uniform I am. We do not need any more items that cloud our identity. I am not sayin we should not be connected or identified with the military, just that we have more than enough connections to the military.

Your answer that "regs state we can roll up our sleeves" is a cop-out. They would not have been included there if the uniform would have been a little bigger.

I posted those corrections in the WW I message to show you that you were so ridiculous or silly in posting that tone of "We should wear the WWI uniform."

Flyer

[NIN]

I've seen the pics of the proposed ABU configuration (well, nametags, wing patches, grade, at least. No NCSA or unit patches were on the pics that I saw, and I haven't seen the written proposal that is currently with the Air Staff to know what it says about other patches, sleeve configs, etc) and honestly, it doesn't look too bad.

The teeth-gnashing I am hearing is substantially the same issues as circa 1990-1991 when the transition to BDUs was announced and enacted.

[Nuke52]

I'm familiar with the proposal for us to switch to ABUs and I read somewhere that the Air Staff has approved ABUs for CAP, effective 1 Jul 2013!  So hurry and go buy yours while supplies last!

Okay, not really, but now the next poster really can say that he "read somewhere" that ABUs are on their way!   

Seriously, don't we have better things to worry about?

[Peeka]

Okay, not really, but now the next poster really can say that he "read somewhere" that ABUs are on their way!   

You mean poser, right?

[NIN]

Okay, not really, but now the next poster really can say that he "read somewhere" that ABUs are on their way!   

Don't make me post the pictures!

[Eclipse]

Okay, not really, but now the next poster really can say that he "read somewhere" that ABUs are on their way!   

Don't make me post the pictures!

Tease.

[Maj Daniel Sauerwein]

Well good thing....times change....I think we would stupid in those puffed out trousers, campaign hats and gaiters they used to wear in WWI.

That's why we should go with the Civil War uniforms! They're blue, they're grey, they make us look like we're so tough we have to buckle our hats on!

Wow, now I have images of our people slogging through the field with wool uniforms and brogans on a ground search . Sounds like a partial reenactment weekend to me, though the amount of heat injury would be a concern. Now we just have the ration of salt pork and hard tack and plenty of coffee and we'll be good.


Having fun at Fort Abercrombie, DT (near present-day Abercrombie, ND) on Flag Day 2011.

[Private Investigator]

... campaign hats ...

I did the paperwork and wrote the policy for campaign hats for the police department I retired from. I think that would be a nice addition to 39-1.   

[Private Investigator]

Flyer

Thank you sir, very interesting reading   :clap: