Cite Please: CAP got Maroon Should Marks as punishment?

[Major Carrales]

OK...this is one of CAP's biggest myths.  I spoke with Gen Rich L. Anderson about it and he said that the move to make CAP more distinctive from the USAF in terms of appearance had been in the works long before any "incident" with the "Two Star Affair."

I get personally erked when I see people furthering that story as if it were FACT.

I am asking for something simple...a "put up, or SHUT UP."  If you can find a memo or directive stating that as FACT, I will stand down.  Since we cannot find "negative" evidence (some memo stating something that did not happen), I do not have the BURDEN of PROOF.

OK...there it is.  Make it happen...

[Major Lord]

Joe,

Indeed, as the Plaintiff in this matter, you do have the burden of proof! Your hearsay assertion of statements made by General  Anderson that USAF plans to make CAP more distinctive predate the infamous 2* incident, could be interpreted to lend weight to the argument that CAP was being punished for its sins. ( Which in fairness went far beyond mere self-aggrandizing self-promotion!) In my experience, when an organization takes steps to distance itself from a sub-echelon, the action is generally not considered an "award". ( By the way Barack Obama told me that Gen Coulter sold her soul to Satan in exchange for repeater funding: Please disprove this.)

Certainly the story is not beyond doubt, but its a very credible theory as to why we would be saddled with the "scarlet letter" ( or epaulet) to B-Slap the Girls-Gone-Wild behavior of the National organization. If anyone had any credible direct knowledge in support of either argument, they would probably be smart enough to keep it to themselves. People who know where the bodies are buried tend to end up with the buried bodies....

Major Lord

[NIN]

While I don't doubt General Anderson's statement that the Air Force had been considering ways to make us more distinctive for some time, it was basically the E.E. Harwell issue (the more or less self-promotion to MG) that served as the impetus to actually force the Air Force to pull the trigger.

I think the term "punishment" might be a bit over the top. Perhaps a better way to consider it would be that the AF felt that CAP's folks needed to be more distinctive to avoid confusion, and, well, what better time?

[Daniel]

post nuked.

[Major Lord]

We can't tell you until you are a senior member or old enough to buy us beer.....of course, your parents could buy it for us and we could tell them.....

Major Lord

[Daniel]

We can't tell you until you are a senior member or old enough to buy us beer.....of course, your parents could buy it for us and we could tell them.....

Major Lord

Ahhh its one of THOSE things, cadet out.

[Major Carrales]

Joe,

Indeed, as the Plaintiff in this matter, you do have the burden of proof! Your hearsay assertion of statements made by General  Anderson that USAF plans to make CAP more distinctive predate the infamous 2* incident, could be interpreted to lend weight to the argument that CAP was being punished for its sins. ( Which in fairness went far beyond mere self-aggrandizing self-promotion!) In my experience, when an organization takes steps to distance itself from a sub-echelon, the action is generally not considered an "award". ( By the way Barack Obama told me that Gen Coulter sold her soul to Satan in exchange for repeater funding: Please disprove this.)

No "strawman" arguments here...I never said I was presenting Gen Anderson's words as edivence.  So there is no heresay here, only an anecdote.

I am, however, calling for evidence to support what is presented as FACT here.  Theories are one thing...making a claim over and over again does not make it true.

I want evidence.  Some document which will show this to be true...that the Maroon Epaulets are a punishment for a CAP National Commander self-promoting.

Also, could you tell me why...if it was a punitive measure.  Why did that National Commander retain his rank?  One would think that punishing the entire organization and then leaving the cluprit intact would violate the story's viability?

Yes, I know some of you like to cling to these stories.  They justify your world views and make it somehow make sense.  But Washington never chopped down a cherry tree, threw a dollar over the Potomac nor was Zachary Taylor assisanted; same goes for this issue unless someone from that time provides written/signed documentation that this is true or some document from that time makes it so.

Many of you on CAPTALK, depending on your political leanings, would as the same en re documentation of the Bush and Obama administrations...why the demand for PROOF there and the undying FAITH in his story HERE?  Or even more to the point...demanding the REGULATIONS be CITED like scripture pasages at a seminary, but taking this story as gospel!!!  (yes...I went there!!!)

[Eclipse]

Why doesn't someone ask Harwell?

[Major Carrales]

Why doesn't someone ask Harwell?

I don't know the fellow, but am tempted to contact him on the matter if it will end this one way or the other.  Would that even work, Lord has said that such would be HEARSAY...and, most likely "Heresy" to subscribers of this long established myth.

Still, I am not the one making the claim this this story is true.  Let those who would support the story do the research.

[FARRIER]

I was on the the staff of then Col. Bobick, when he was Wing Commander of the Colorado Wing. In a staff meeting we were given, by Col. Bobick,  the reason for the loss of the hard rank and going to the Berry Boards was E.E. Harwell's self promotion to Major General. His word was then and is still gold with me. I answered your question directly.

Respectfully,

[PHall]

OK...this is one of CAP's biggest myths.  I spoke with Gen Rich L. Anderson about it and he said that the move to make CAP more distinctive from the USAF in terms of appearance had been in the works long before any "incident" with the "Two Star Affair."

I get personally erked when I see people furthering that story as if it were FACT.

I am asking for something simple...a "put up, or SHUT UP."  If you can find a memo or directive stating that as FACT, I will stand down.  Since we cannot find "negative" evidence (some memo stating something that did not happen), I do not have the BURDEN of PROOF.

OK...there it is.  Make it happen...

Hey Joe, prove it isn't the truth.

[spacecommand]

the reason for the loss of the hard rank and going to the Berry Boards

You mean blue shoulder marks instead of "hard rank"? 
I don't think CAP was using hard-rank by that time on service uniforms.

[spacecommand]

Not being in CAP back then I don't know. 
Was there any official explanation or was a memo released the next day after the promotion saying "from now on CAP members will wear maroon colored shoulder marks".

How long was it after the promotion before the changes were ordered?
Why didn't they just say "no we don't approve, you can't be a two star general, it's not approved etc etc?" 
If the USAF was so against his promotion why allow him to keep the grade anyway?  Punish the whole organization but leave the "wrongdoing" in place?

[SarDragon]

the reason for the loss of the hard rank and going to the Berry Boards

You mean blue shoulder marks instead of "hard rank"? 
I don't think CAP was using hard-rank by that time on service uniforms.

I have a gap in my available info, but here's what I do have.

In the 1987 39-1, the hard rank was worn on the service coat, shirts without epaulets, and most outerwear. The shoulder marks were worn on shirts with epaulets. I think this continued into/through 1989, because I have both Capt hard rank, and blue CAP shoulder marks. I was promoted to Capt in Apr 1989. My next version of 39-1 is from 1989.

[kd8gua]

When did the CAP maroon tabs for the service coat epaulettes (worn below the button on the epaulet) come into play then? Hard rank was being worn when these came out. It seems this was the immediate change before the Berry Boards were put on the service coat. I don't know if the Berry Boards were worn on the shirts at that time, though I would assume the change over was in progress.

[spacecommand]

Ok thanks for the clarification, I thought blue CAP shoulder marks were also worn on the the service coat.

[MSG Mac]

E.E Harwell wasn't stripped of his 2nd star, because at that time the USAF didn't have oversight of the CAP General grades. They do now. But Harwell's successor BG Barry, who received his BG as National Vice Commander,  did refuse to put on the second star, because of the problems caused by the self-promotion.

The Maroon epaulets came about in 1987 for the shirts, hard grade was still worn on the service coats, along with a red velcro strip which said CAP on it. The wear of the red epaulets on the service coat came about in 1991 or 92. The grey epaulets were introduced about in the mid-90's.

[FW]

^Gentlemen, let me restate the story, as told to me, by Gens. Bobick, Bowling, and Wheless (who was the NLO during Anderson's reign).  The story was "confirmed" by Col Len Blascovich, the National Historian.

Gen Harwell and the national board wanted 2 stars for the National Commander.  He went to the SECAF/MIR for approval.  Approval for the grade was granted.  HOWEVER, the CSAF was not consulted and, for some reason, was upset about the end run maneuver.  AS the SECAF was his boss, there was not much he could do about it.  Well, there was one thing.... "berry boards" to give us a more "distinct appearance".  (we first had maroon circlets over hard grade for a very short time.)

When Gen Barry became National Commander, he refused to take the second star.  This seemed to placate the CSAF and, when Gen Anderson became national commander, maroon changed to gray.  End of story.

That's what I've been told and, unless I see "proof" of another sort, I'm sticking to this interpretation of events....

[NIN]

The Maroon epaulets came about in 1987 for the shirts, hard grade was still worn on the service coats, along with a red velcro strip which said CAP on it. The wear of the red epaulets on the service coat came about in 1991 or 92. The grey epaulets were introduced about in the mid-90's.

Nope, sorry, not entirely accurate.

I came back to CAP after active duty in 1989 (January, actually) and we were in hard-rank on service coats and blue shoulder marks on the shirts.

My memory gets a tiny bit fuzzy here, but I got promoted to Captain in 1993 and I don't recall ever wearing blue shoulder marks as a Captain.  I think I even had 1st Lt in maroon, but like I said, my memory is fuzzy there.

Grey came out in the mid 1990s, like you said. I took a year "off" at some point in either late 1994 or early 1995, and when I came "back"  (late 1995 or early 1996) I had to get grey shoulder marks.

[LTC Don]

Being from North Carolina when this whole sordid affair went down, and the fact that Harwell was from North Carolina, it was pretty clear to the membership here that the move to the maroon boards was in fact a 'punishment' of sorts.  Now whether it was or not......really doesn't matter.  It was received by the membership that way, and for a great many, myself included, the respect meter for both the Air Force and CAP National-level fell to zero.  My meter for the Air Force is still pretty much there as painful as it is for me to say that.  That whole thing about 'letting' us put the US on the lapel was a joke, as if to make some kind of amends for the maroon epaulet episode.

As silly as it all really is, the blue epaulets, which CAP had worn for many, many years, made us feel a part of the Air Force Team.  That episode put us in our place, as second-class and that rub continues today, perceived or otherwise.

There were so many other options available to merely make the blue epaulets more distinctive and not move to a completely different epaulet would indicate someone decided a nuclear strike was the only thing to make the point loud and clear that the Air Force wanted a >clear< distancing of CAP from the Air Force.  The subsequent amendment with the Aux On/Aux Off changes was merely icing on the cake.

Discussion fodder...maybe so, but the fact that this issue keeps coming up just goes to show it is still a very open, festering wound that no one seems to want to step up and fix by restoring the blue epaulets (in whatever form they may take).