Interesting "candid" look at what pilots "think" of CAP

Started by Майор Хаткевич, February 09, 2015, 10:32:21 PM

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Майор Хаткевич


Eclipse

There's a good reason why Reddit isn't on my "daily read list".

While there are some people in these threads that clearly know what they are talking about,
there's plenty there that don't (as you noted), even some of the OP's comments indicate
a lack of full understanding of the situation.

As an example - the one comments about having 4-5 wing CC's in ten years, well considering a
Wing CC's term is 3 years, with a 4th if they want it.  Math!

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on February 09, 2015, 10:52:52 PM
There's a good reason why Reddit isn't on my "daily read list".

While there are some people in these threads that clearly know what they are talking about,
there's plenty there that don't (as you noted), even some of the OP's comments indicate
a lack of full understanding of the situation.

As an example - the one comments about having 4-5 wing CC's in ten years, well considering a
Wing CC's term is 3 years, with a 4th if they want it.  Math!


I think I've seen 4-5 Wing Kings in my 12 years, so yea...

I'm more fascinated by the "depends from club to club", or "Those pansy wannabes who play air force, if you're lucky you'll find a laid back unit who focus on flying, and not those pesky kids who get in the way". Honestly, I feel that stuff like THIS is why it's hard to get pilots (and members in general). People who have no clue, spouting off when they are asked...

Jon Moser

It is hypothetically possible to have that many in ten years (e.g. resignation, removal, death, etc). I am somewhat tempted to reply to that thread even given its age...
JONATHAN R. MOSER, Capt, CAP
Director of IT
Southwest Region

Eclipse

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on February 09, 2015, 10:56:41 PM
I'm more fascinated by the "depends from club to club", or "Those pansy wannabes who play air force, if you're lucky you'll find a laid back unit who focus on flying, and not those pesky kids who get in the way". Honestly, I feel that stuff like THIS is why it's hard to get pilots (and members in general). People who have no clue, spouting off when they are asked...

Agreed, but this is mainly CAP's own fault in wanting to be "all things to all people, in the same room, at the same time".
it simply doesn't work, and you'll never have anything resembling "one team".  People are disgruntled by nature,
there's nothing that someone can't complain about. CAP's trouble is that it provides a long menu of things for people to
choose from the day they walk in the door, without having to even look very deep.  Reference the thread on the
ability to actually buy some uniform parts (not to mention the state of the uniform), or the total lack of
strategic plan that people are greeted with when they finally hitch up.

There's also the issue that GA pilots tend to give grandma's the porch a run for their money in terms of
gossip, whining, and complaining.  I have seen more then a few who quit in a huff when a policy about an
airplane's location, or who gets to fly when becomes "unfair to them", even though the very nepotism or
"unfair policy" that now moves their plane elsewhere, was to their benefit before.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Also, sadly, many of the comments ae spot on and at least anecdotally true.  Little that is "wrong" with CAP
is atypical of any other volunteer organization of similar scale, the issue is perception.

With the perception of military affiliation and government backing, people expect CAP to be a lot more then it is.

"That Others May Zoom"

LSThiker

TheTravelingAirman is in the last thread posted.

A number of comments seemed to misunderstand what CAP is.  It is clear that a number of people expected that they could join CAP and the next day be flying our aircraft or SAR missions.  They wanted no part of the "military" side of things.  They wanted no part of the cadet program or aerospace education.  They wanted to fly for free and wanted nothing to do with the required paperwork or other requirements.

On the other hand, there seemed to be a number of comments from the military.  While a number were anecdotally true, but I usually take these with a grain of salt.  In my experience, it seems there are a lot of service members that talk larger than reality.  They either embellish a story to make them look bigger.  For example, in certain military forums, I have read a few stories of how PFC So & So gave a smack down to a Lieutenant Colonel.  It is usually pretty easy to spot the immature soldiers from the more professional soldiers.

On the other hand, a number of stories told are plausible.  There are just too many, while still in the minority, that join CAP to be military wannabes.  There are a number of rather unprofessional volunteers.  There are a number of well intentioned senior members that are just not the sharpest tool in the shed. 

NIN

Many years ago there was a message posted to some aviation board or another about the Watsonville Airshow in CA and someone mentioned CAP and some dude went off on a rant about the "jackbooted thugs" in CAP.  Yep. jackbooted thugs.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

LSThiker

Quote from: NIN on February 10, 2015, 12:18:46 AM
Many years ago there was a message posted to some aviation board or another about the Watsonville Airshow in CA and someone mentioned CAP and some dude went off on a rant about the "jackbooted thugs" in CAP.  Yep. jackbooted thugs.

Were they on horseback?  :)

NIN

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

PHall

Quote from: LSThiker on February 10, 2015, 12:30:08 AM
Quote from: NIN on February 10, 2015, 12:18:46 AM
Many years ago there was a message posted to some aviation board or another about the Watsonville Airshow in CA and someone mentioned CAP and some dude went off on a rant about the "jackbooted thugs" in CAP.  Yep. jackbooted thugs.

Were they on horseback?  :)

No, we weren't. Yes, I was there.

Eclipse

Quote from: LSThiker on February 09, 2015, 11:53:31 PM
On the other hand, there seemed to be a number of comments from the military.  While a number were anecdotally true, but I usually take these with a grain of salt.  In my experience, it seems there are a lot of service members that talk larger than reality.  They either embellish a story to make them look bigger. 

When you consider the relatively few CAP members who ever have contact with the military for any reason, let alone in some circumstance
where they would be in contact with rank and file enlisted, the percentage of "problems" would have to be pretty significant overall
to rise to the level insinuated in the apocryphal stories on the internet.  I've had to herd the cats of inexperienced senior members
on an active duty, non-USAF base for over 12 years and while I have a few goober stories, nothing that comes close to the nonsense
purported in the wives tales we hear about.  Did it ever happen "this one time at band camp"?  Maybe.

Sometimes a story is too good to let facts get in the way.

Quote from: LSThiker on February 09, 2015, 11:53:31 PM
For example, in certain military forums, I have read a few stories of how PFC So & So gave a smack down to a Lieutenant Colonel.  It is usually pretty easy to spot the immature soldiers from the more professional soldiers.

These always genuinely make me laugh - A PFC, or a SrA "dressing down" a CAP officer.

Sounds good when you're boasting on allmilitary, but doesn't make much sense in the real world when you consider that the average CAP officer, regardless of
grade, is going to be an >adult< with better things to do then care either way what the average enlisted man thinks about them, let alone
are they going to take a lot of nonsense off some kid just because they are in ABUs on a military base.  That airman is as likely to get reamed from
his superiors for interacting with CAP members at all as that Airman is going to start hassling someone over a saluting issue.

No one has any doubt that at some point, somewhere, a handful of CAP members, scattered to the winds of the US, did something stupid or
out of line, but those stories have been living on like zombies for ages with little basis in day-to-day reality.

One of my best friends saluted a CAP Cadet Officer while he was in BMT, then his buddies gave him grief about it, and he's held a chip on his
shoulder about CAP as a whole ever since.  That was his mistake, not CAP's, and no one died.  These stories are more about this kind of thing
then CAP members causing trouble.

"That Others May Zoom"

TheTravelingAirman

Quote from: LSThiker on February 09, 2015, 11:53:31 PM
TheTravelingAirman is in the last thread posted.

Wow. I was. I needed a good smack on the head as a new NCO, didn't I?

Still don't want to get saluted though.

A lot of people I have spoken with have no clue what CAP does. Our local squadron, still acting like a "Home-schooled club" doesn't help that image a lot, either.

Private Investigator

Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on February 10, 2015, 01:23:08 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 09, 2015, 11:53:31 PM
TheTravelingAirman is in the last thread posted.

Wow. I was. I needed a good smack on the head as a new NCO, didn't I?

Still don't want to get saluted though.

A lot of people I have spoken with have no clue what CAP does. Our local squadron, still acting like a "Home-schooled club" doesn't help that image a lot, either.

Very good points. One of our local Squadrons ends its Cadet side of the meeting with punch and cookies.  8)

PA Guy

Quote from: Private Investigator on February 10, 2015, 06:46:36 AM
Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on February 10, 2015, 01:23:08 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 09, 2015, 11:53:31 PM
TheTravelingAirman is in the last thread posted.

Wow. I was. I needed a good smack on the head as a new NCO, didn't I?

Still don't want to get saluted though.

A lot of people I have spoken with have no clue what CAP does. Our local squadron, still acting like a "Home-schooled club" doesn't help that image a lot, either.

Very good points. One of our local Squadrons ends its Cadet side of the meeting with punch and cookies.  8)

:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

Flying Pig

I like the comment that ends with "signed: CFI who has had run ins with CAP"   ;D   That entire discussion is nothing but rumors and urban legends being passed on by people who just feel the need to chime in anonymously.

TheTravelingAirman

#16
Quote from: Private Investigator on February 10, 2015, 06:46:36 AM
Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on February 10, 2015, 01:23:08 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 09, 2015, 11:53:31 PM
TheTravelingAirman is in the last thread posted.

A lot of people I have spoken with have no clue what CAP does. Our local squadron, still acting like a "Home-schooled club" doesn't help that image a lot, either.

Very good points. One of our local Squadrons ends its Cadet side of the meeting with punch and cookies.  8)

I could live with punch and cookies. When I arrived, however, I arrived to a dynastic chain of command. Our Commander, Deputy Commander, and Cadet Commander were all from the same family. I, and a few others, saw this as problem #1 of quite a few. All recruiting drives have been run at the same church for the better part of the past few years. A mentorship program to guide new Senior Members has been shot down because "I didn't have one" (quote our personnel officer).

The CV/Cadets, the CV/Seniors, and myself are all military. We have our own ideas for how to make the squadron work "better" (Point of view) because we know these things work for the AF(J)ROTCs and the USAF as a whole. We have been told none of them will happen because "this isn't the Air Force" and has been inferred our "interference" wasn't welcome. Our wishes have been ignored on many fronts, including my promotion.

All we wanted to do was help, but it feels like all most of the people involved in the Cadet Program want is for their children to socialize.

We are now semi-actively looking for (at least) 5 more members to create a Senior Flight on base until we know how to run a squadron and have people qualified in every major job track. Then we can move to being a Composite Squadron with a Cadet "Flight" for members interested in that aspect, and a Senior "Flight" for those not.

Private Investigator

Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on February 10, 2015, 06:26:45 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on February 10, 2015, 06:46:36 AM
Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on February 10, 2015, 01:23:08 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 09, 2015, 11:53:31 PM
TheTravelingAirman is in the last thread posted.

A lot of people I have spoken with have no clue what CAP does. Our local squadron, still acting like a "Home-schooled club" doesn't help that image a lot, either.

Very good points. One of our local Squadrons ends its Cadet side of the meeting with punch and cookies.  8)

I could live with punch and cookies. When I arrived, however, I arrived to a dynastic chain of command. Our Commander, Deputy Commander, and Cadet Commander were all from the same family. I, and a few others, saw this as problem #1 of quite a few. All recruiting drives have been run at the same church for the better part of the past few years. A mentorship program to guide new Senior Members has been shot down because "I didn't have one" (quote our personnel officer).

The CV/Cadets, the CV/Seniors, and myself are all military. We have our own ideas for how to make the squadron work "better" (Point of view) because we know these things work for the AF(J)ROTCs and the USAF as a whole. We have been told none of them will happen because "this isn't the Air Force" and has been inferred our "interference" wasn't welcome. Our wishes have been ignored on many fronts, including my promotion.

All we wanted to do was help, but it feels like all most of the people involved in the Cadet Program want is for their children to socialize.

We are now semi-actively looking for (at least) 5 more members to create a Senior Flight on base until we know how to run a squadron and have people qualified in every major job track. Then we can move to being a Composite Squadron with a Cadet "Flight" for members interested in that aspect, and a Senior "Flight" for those not.

I like your plan. Once the CC terms out or their family moves away then progress can be made. Stay strong and good luck.   ;)

Nuke52

Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on February 10, 2015, 06:26:45 PM
The CV/Cadets, the CV/Seniors, and myself are all military.

I concur with your post, but just for the sake of accuracy, squadrons and groups have CDs, only wings and above have CVs.
[/nit-picking]

Good luck!
Lt Col
Wilson Awd

TheTravelingAirman

Quote from: Nuke52 on February 11, 2015, 11:22:42 AM
Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on February 10, 2015, 06:26:45 PM
The CV/Cadets, the CV/Seniors, and myself are all military.

I concur with your post, but just for the sake of accuracy, squadrons and groups have CDs, only wings and above have CVs.
[/nit-picking]

Good luck!

Caught that...never actually seen the abbreviation for a deputy CC, never had one! Just left it cause of that.

Grumpy

Quote from: PA Guy on February 10, 2015, 07:17:12 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on February 10, 2015, 06:46:36 AM
Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on February 10, 2015, 01:23:08 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 09, 2015, 11:53:31 PM
TheTravelingAirman is in the last thread posted.

Wow. I was. I needed a good smack on the head as a new NCO, didn't I?

Still don't want to get saluted though.

A lot of people I have spoken with have no clue what CAP does. Our local squadron, still acting like a "Home-schooled club" doesn't help that image a lot, either.

Very good points. One of our local Squadrons ends its Cadet side of the meeting with punch and cookies.  8)

:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

Yeah, I know what you mean.  Not a thing like us seniors who have coffee and doughnuts.   ;)

Flying Pig

"Home schooled club"  ;D

I took over a cadet program from a mother who had basically been forced into being a Deputy Commander for Cadets by default.  Several of the cadets were homeschooled.  Actually I didnt take it over... she asked me if I would be interested.  Mom was more than happy to hand it off.  She had kept the unit running for about a year just trying to learn as she went while bouncing a newborn baby on her knee.   She had recruited a couple of her friends to help her...... so they had to bring their kids.  I believe one or two of those moms who started by just helping out are now Majors and one is an LTC now.  We had a small office set up as a small nursery.  I was younger, with a brand new baby.  My wife came to CAP to help out and a couple of the moms took turns watching the small kids in the office we set aside.  Was it ideal?  No.  Did everyone know it was a little oki to be bringing babies and little kids and play pens to CAP meetings?  Yes.. we all joked about it.  But the atmosphere remained professional and we did the best we could.  That arraignment lasted about a year.  We managed to turn out some great cadets and sent a couple to West Point and the USAFA during that whole experiment.    Did I like it?  No.... but we worked around it.  Im very thankful for the parents I had helping who all knew we couldnt allow it to turn into a daycare.  We did have one incident where a parent dropped off her cadet and left his smaller brother .... age 5-7ish.   Either join and help, or come get your kid.  She pointed out that "well other parents leave their cadets siblings".  Nope... sorry..... those parents are all hidden in offices trying to make this unit operate. 

Or we could have just disbanded CAWG Sq. 45, which has a rep in CA for being one of the top run cadet programs in the wing.  Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

TheTravelingAirman

I didn't join for the Cadet Program, so just sticking around for it isn't getting me any satisfaction. Everyone talks about how there are retention issues. Recruitment issues. Come to a meeting here, see if it sounds fun. I've seen more people come and not return than our squadron has. All are things we've attempted to address to the Dynasty so they aren't chasing off new members. All are things that still happen.

Death by PowerPoint. Family video of CAP highlighting your kid more than CAP. 45 minute briefs on "spatial disorientation" to a room full of cadets who don't fly, and only 2 even drive. We have wanted to engage the cadets, leadership just wants to practice giving speeches for class. Only leadership opportunity here is "Don't do like that guy".

All I wanted was ES, all most of the seniors my age wanted was ES. We don't even have ES. We have tried to do what we felt we had to for the Cadets. We've been ignored or had the changes undone when we missed a meeting. It is time we just form our own squadron, and let them do as they wish.

vorteks


Майор Хаткевич

I came back after college, and my main goal was to give back to Cadet Programs. As it stands, it is our most active mission on a weekly scale. I'm enjoying my time, helping with encampment, and get to feel the "warm and fuzzies" flashbacks of my own cadet days.

If I can help even ONE kid to the point where they can say CAP (and I) had a positive impact on them, it's all worth it.

Eclipse, PWK-GT, and a few others who lurk here and know who they are, certainly had that impact on me.

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: Flying Pig on February 12, 2015, 01:11:30 PM
 
Or we could have just disbanded CAWG Sq. 45, which has a rep in CA for being one of the top run cadet programs in the wing.  Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

I joined CAP at Sq 45, 1967. At the time, it had a small dynastic setup. SQ CC was dad to a couple of cadets. Most staff people were WWII vets. Most cadet staff were also JROTC cadets at the same high school. It was a pretty tight knit collection of tight knit groupings.  I left there in 1968.

In 1972, I went back as Cadet Commander due to my unit meeting on an incompatible night. By then, Sq. 45 had changed. Family dynasty was gone. WW II vets had formed a Senior squadron (Sq 5). No more JROTC cadre, as more high schools were represented. Instead, squadron leadership was largely USAF NCO's, both former cadets and no prior CAP service. They were great people, but were realistic. They flat out told us that they were only good for three years and would then move on. I left there in 1973.

I guess what I'm saying is that Squadrons are cyclical, with the primary common factor being that they use who they get, adapting as they go. If it takes old guys keeping the flame alive, or dad trying to help his sons, or moms bringing playpens, more power to them.
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Private Investigator

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on February 14, 2015, 04:34:29 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 12, 2015, 01:11:30 PM
 
Or we could have just disbanded CAWG Sq. 45, which has a rep in CA for being one of the top run cadet programs in the wing.  Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

I joined CAP at Sq 45, 1967. At the time, it had a small dynastic setup. SQ CC was dad to a couple of cadets. Most staff people were WWII vets. Most cadet staff were also JROTC cadets at the same high school. It was a pretty tight knit collection of tight knit groupings.  I left there in 1968.

In 1972, I went back as Cadet Commander due to my unit meeting on an incompatible night. By then, Sq. 45 had changed. Family dynasty was gone. WW II vets had formed a Senior squadron (Sq 5). No more JROTC cadre, as more high schools were represented. Instead, squadron leadership was largely USAF NCO's, both former cadets and no prior CAP service. They were great people, but were realistic. They flat out told us that they were only good for three years and would then move on. I left there in 1973.

I guess what I'm saying is that Squadrons are cyclical, with the primary common factor being that they use who they get, adapting as they go. If it takes old guys keeping the flame alive, or dad trying to help his sons, or moms bringing playpens, more power to them.

I concur. No Unit anywhere is 110% pefect for a course of, lets say twenty years. It will ebb and flo like the ocean. You rest on your laurels and reality check will tell you that you are just sitting on your butt too long. i.e., Squadron of the Year in 2004 but has not even put together a Color Guard for the last five years.  8)