Charter Issue Date = Unit Founding?

Started by a2capt, December 17, 2012, 11:03:15 AM

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a2capt

Our "original" charter recently surfaced, and is dated mid 1968, would it be a safe assumption that is the founding date of the unit, or would they be dated when it was issued?

IOW, could there be an earlier one? Does NHQ know how old a particular unit is?

Along with that was a lot of photographs from the era too, and I'm going to add them to the photo gallery on the web eventually.

My answer partially may be that it's the date of the charter issue, because we've got a newer one that reflect a name/structure change. The unit met at a nearby airport originally, was named after that and was a cadet squadron by charter. It has since moved several miles from there, and 30 years ago and sometime in there renamed and changed to composite, though I'm not sure if all that happened at once or in steps, but that charter if I recall correctly has a 1990's date on it. Of course, that one is "somewhere safe" ..

I intend to scan them and make nice color prints for framing and then let the original go back "somewhere safe" that's documented in the file plan, but that we have something for the wall, and web. The charter number is the same through all that, which makes me wonder how they were numbered in the first place. In the mid 300's, in 1968? Did they issue them nationally in sequence and append the wing to it? Or did they jump around by some geographic designator with areas reserved for each?

flyboy53

It is dated when issued and doesn't necessary mean when the unit was founded.

If you are interested in the actual orign, you might be better served contacting older or former members and start building a file with historical information.

You also may want to contact the historian in your community to see if there are references in the local media or even a scrap book in someone's book shelf.

So often, the organization of the CAP has changed or evolved over the years. While there is an interest in the field to to trace a unit historically, there has been an absolute lack of proper historical record keeping and even a movement at command level to disregard some aspects of organizational history -- don't believe me? Look at how many wing patches have the original WWII numerical indentification numbers and how many do not.

RiverAux

I don't know when they started issuing the certificates, but they started using charter numbers for squadrons in the 1950s.

I have seen older units be given more modern dates on their certificates and I've also seen units get new certificates with the original charter date on it. 

Keep in mind that most towns with CAP units may have had multiple units in that town over the course of history.  Especially during WWII.  However, at least in my view (since there are no CAP rules on this), a current unit can't claim the history of those units unless it was issued their old charter number when it was re-started. 

a2capt

I did find a previous cadet commander from the early 1970s, who started in the unit 3-4 years earlier and his words seemed to indicate there was a general feeling of this is a "new" unit back then, but that's as far as I've been able to dig up. When I look at the photos in detail I'll try searching for more names and see what that brings. There are also newspaper articles in with it.

With databases today it's easy to determine stuff. The entry date stays. But the days of punch card based machines and giant IBM databases on mainframes were not for everyone.  Suffice to say, that which was isn't written down all in the same place .. becomes a huge challenge to put back together again.

tarheel gumby

National HQ did not start assigning Charter numbers until 1956. So it is conceiveable that some units may be older that their charters. Newspaper archives may be of some help in determining when a squadron was formed or if there was a unit in the area prior to the Issue of a Charter. A good example of this it my squadron which was formed in Feb 1945, when the Western North Carolina Squadron was split into at least 3 different squadrons. The only squadron left is the Asheville Composite Squadron, I was able to find this information from old newspaper clippings that a former member had saved. The original unit charter is dated 27 May 1957.
Joseph Myers Maj. CAP
Squadron Historian MER NC 019
Historian MER NC 001
Historian MER 001

Eclipse

My wing has units with clear lineage back to the founding of CAP, but charter docs that only date to the '70's.

"That Others May Zoom"

tarheel gumby

I suspect that's  the case in most wings.
Joseph Myers Maj. CAP
Squadron Historian MER NC 019
Historian MER NC 001
Historian MER 001

a2capt

Any idea on the rationale for charter numbers? Was it pie in the sky, sequential, what?

RiverAux

Within wings they appeared to put all the squadrons in alphabetical order and then start numbering them.  So, if a town started with an A it got a lower charter number than a "T" unit that may have actually formed many years earlier. 

After that initial round they seemed to start issuing new charter numbers in each wing as units were formed.

Incidentally, they have started tracking charter dates in the CAPWATCH database, but it is massively incomplete. 

ol'fido

This raises several questions for historians:

1. At what point did CAP start calling it a "charter" when a local unit was organized. Did this originate with the organization or was it something that came along in the 50's or 60's?

2. When is a unit actually formed?:

a. Is it formed the first night that a group of prospective members has an organizational meeting?

b. Is it formed on the date that the initial Form 27 is signed?

c. Is it formed when the "charter" is issued?

d. Is it formed when there is a formal activation ceremony and the charter is presented to the membership?

Unlike British regiments where the regiments number indicates its seniority on the Army List, CAP unit charter numbers indicate no seniority that I am aware of. 
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

SarDragon

#10
Quote from: a2capt on December 17, 2012, 10:34:38 PM
Any idea on the rationale for charter numbers? Was it pie in the sky, sequential, what?

Good question. My guess is that there was some sort of sequence initially, maybe alphabetical (not likely?); chronological, based on creation date; perhaps geographical.

I just looked through a CAPWATCH table (Organization.txt), and chronological seems to be the most logical. Numbers have been reused, since there are new units with numbers that are very low in the numerical sequence. Mostly, though, new units get the next number from the sequential list.

CAWG Group 7 has the lowest number of any of the groups (006), but it used to be (part of?) another group since the reorg in the late '90s.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

SarDragon

Quote from: ol'fido on December 18, 2012, 12:23:05 AM
2. When is a unit actually formed?:

a. Is it formed the first night that a group of prospective members has an organizational meeting?

b. Is it formed on the date that the initial Form 27 is signed?

c. Is it formed when the "charter" is issued?

Based on my read of CAPR 20-3, c. is when the unit becomes official.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Eclipse

I would say prior to charters being consistent, then all bets are off, but these days no charter = no unit.

"That Others May Zoom"

a2capt

Yes, if Group 7 is 006, but Sq. 45 in Group 3 is 007, then that perhaps shows re-use of empty holes. Except looking at the CAWG list now, it's all over the place and all the units can fit under 100 barely. 10 years ago, in the beginning of the Myrick era, one of the things he would talk about was having to pare down the wing from ~120 to around 80 where it's at now.

But even then, 120 .. 200 units I can maybe possibly see. Some of them are in the hight 400's. Did we ever get that high, or did they skip collapsed numbers for a while?

RiverAux

uh, there is no 3-digit limit on the charter numbers.  Many wings have squadrons with numbers above 100. 

As best I've been able to tell unless the Wing CC asks for something different, a new unit receives the next numerically available charter number.  I have seen Wing CCs successfully request that an "old" charter number be re-activated for a unit in the same town previously associated with that charter number.

However, there is no CAP regulation or policy that I'm aware of that actually governs CAP charter number issuance or assignment of the "honors and lineage" (to use the standard military term) of old units to newly activated ones. 

a2capt

I never said there was a 3 digit limit, my 'below 100" was the amount of units in the Wing now being where it's at, to reflect on the total # against the highest number and doubting there has ever been that many to push the highest one up there, if they were issued sequentially.

RiverAux

Ah, but they didn't start each wing's charter numbers at 0.  They might have started the 1st charter back in the old days at 10, 20, 30, etc.  Heck, they could have started it at 90. 


BTW, here is the best available information on the history of charter numbers: CAP Historical Note 16 
http://www.scribd.com/doc/103637429/CAP-Monograph-No-16-Charter-Numbers

SarDragon

That covers the wing numbering very well, but doesn't address numbering with an individual wing. That's what the question is about.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

flyboy53

#18
Quote from: SarDragon on December 18, 2012, 11:05:02 AM
That covers the wing numbering very well, but doesn't address numbering with an individual wing. That's what the question is about.

It was my experience that charter numbers begin with the PL 446 that incorporates CAP as a Congressionally-chartered private benevolent corporation. How soon after the law is signed and charter numbers are assigned isn't clear, but the initial charter numbers were wing-based, but with a vastly different numerical system. So for example, PA Wing was originally 3-1 based on the first wing in the Third Army Corps area or 31st Wing as I remember from being a cadet, but charter numbers started with 37XXX. At the core, I'm sure that you may find that there is an accounting or budgetary reason for the numbers. You also may find that there is an alphabetical reason for the first two numbers.

So, what was then Composite Squadron 501 (now the Don Beatty Memorial Squadron 501) was the first (original) squadron formed in that area during World War II (the unit was about 25 miles from Gill Robb Wilson's home town); and the squadron commander/organizer, H. Doug Brown, was a personal friend of Wilson's. However, it carried the 501 designation for being the first squadron in what was then Group 50, and the charter number as I remember was 37143 for being 143rd unit then in the PA Wing.

Although charter numbers can be reused, they are generally still confined to the wing of origin and are held in reserve. I remember once inquiring about what charter number might be used for a new start-up unit and the response was a charter number for a recently disbanded unit that was being held at wing level for a year.


RiverAux

Quote from: SarDragon on December 18, 2012, 11:05:02 AM
That covers the wing numbering very well, but doesn't address numbering with an individual wing. That's what the question is about.

Didn't say it was complete, just that it was the best available historical document on this topic.