New to CAP - Question About Rank

[Twolf]

Hello All,
   I am a soldier in the Minnesota Army National Guard and was looking into getting involved with some sort of youth organization. I looked into many organizations and almost choose the Boy Scouts until I found the Civil Air Patrol. I really didn't know anything about CAP so I started out just showing up as much as I could because my job keeps me quite busy. A year later I realized that I had never missed a meeting and had really come to love the program and greatly enjoy my time with the kids. Last month I paid my $72 and am now officially a member of the Civil Air Patrol. I have many questions about CAP (like why, when doing an open ranks, the CAP moves the entire formation forward causing the commander to have to move), but my biggest question deals with rank.
   The position my Sq wants me to take is basically in charge of operations for our sq. Figuring out training schedules and fun, exciting things for the cadets to do and stuff like that. The senior member that had this position before me was a 1LT - so logic would tell me that I should go into the officer corps. But the thing is that I don't WANT to be an officer. I'm an NCO - Trainer of Soldiers and Maker of Men. I'm the type of person that wants to be down in the dirt right along side of my men, not behind a desk blindly making policies and plans. Secondly, I find it almost offensive for me to be an officer. I haven't earned that right so it would seem fake to me. So which rank should I go with? Should I stay in the NCO Corps or should I become a 2LT? What are the differences in the CAP?
   In addition to my responsibilities at my sq, I'd like to get involved in Wing activities. BCOC, EPS, and all that fun stuff. Will my status as an NCO prevent me from getting involved? Will it affect what I will be able to do?
   Another thing of concern is the issue of respect. Will the cadets respect me any less as an NCO vs an officer? I know the cadets in my sq greatly respect me because...well... I'm me and they know me. But will the cadets at a wing events respect me the same? I feel as though the CAP puts so much on being an officer that they ignore the NCO corps. It feels like it's looked down upon, being an NCO. I myself respect a grizzly old E-7 MUCH more than I will ever respect a 2LT, but I don't get that same feeling in the CAP.
   As you can imagine, I have many more questions about CAP, which I will continue to ask in this forum. Thank you for your time and I greatly anticipate your responses.

[thefischNX01]

CAPR 35-5 allows for the appointment of CAP NCO's based on their prior experience. 

Section F: Non-Commissioned Officer Grades

27. General. This Section perscribes the requirements and procedures for for appointment to CAP noncommissioned officer (NCO) grades

28. Elegibility requirements

a. Only those CAP members who are military or ex-military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under the provisions in this section.  The CAP grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve, or National Guard. 

b. The member must also have completed Level 1 and CPPT of the Senior Member Professional Development Program

29. Procedures.  Members who meet the eligibility requirement outlined above may assume a CAP NCO grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander (a copy of DD form 214 Military Identification Card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).  The CAPF 2 will be annotated to reflect the NCO grade authorized and forward this form to National Headquarters for recording.  The member is authorized to wear the grade on the CAP uniform as soon as verification of the military NCO grade is recieved. 

Although in my one year of service I have come across only one CAP senior Member NCO, I did not have any less respect for him than for the other Seniors who held officer grades, and neither did the Cadets.  Considering your military status, I highly doubt other cadets would look down upon you for having stripes instead of bars.  In my opinion, you should just go with the stripes if only because you feel more comfortable in them. The one thing I've seen in CAP is that jobs are not rank specific, in my current squadron, a senior member without rank is the Deputy Commander, so rank has little to do with assignments, it's based mostly on qualifications. 

Hope this helps

[MIKE]

Will my status as an NCO prevent me from getting involved? Will it affect what I will be able to do?

I was thinking that being a SSgt (CAP equivalent NCO grade) would restrict you from command of a unit... Though I am still looking on that, and may cause issues with some Senior Member Professional Development opportunities which require certain officer grade as a prerequisite.  Still checking the regs on this.
   

Another thing of concern is the issue of respect. Will the cadets respect me any less as an NCO vs an officer? I know the cadets in my sq greatly respect me because...well... I'm me and they know me. But will the cadets at a wing events respect me the same? I feel as though the CAP puts so much on being an officer that they ignore the NCO corps. It feels like it's looked down upon, being an NCO. I myself respect a grizzly old E-7 MUCH more than I will ever respect a 2LT, but I don't get that same feeling in the CAP.

SM NCOs are rare, but I'd say that they are for the most part respected since you have to have BTDT to qualify for the grade whereas any high school graduate who is at least 21 can be a CAP 2d Lt.

As you can imagine, I have many more questions about CAP, which I will continue to ask in this forum. Thank you for your time and I greatly anticipate your responses.

Ask away sergeant.

[Chris Jacobs]

As a cadet and a cadet that has seen a few SM NCO's i can say i respect them the same if not more than any other SM.  personally when i see a SM that has strips all the way up his sleeve i know i am working with some one that knows what they are doing.  In Oregon our Cadet programs director is a Chief Master Sergent and i hold the up most respect for him.  he knows what he is doing and i really like having him around.  i cant answer all the questions about how it will affect you as a senior member but i can tell you that most CAP cadets will love a senior member that has their same rank as them.

I also know plenty of regular Sergent's in the military that are captins or what ever in the CAP.  i don't know if they feel funny about it or not but most of the time they are also highly respected because the cadets will find out that Captin so and so did two tours in Vietnam, or that Major so and so was a master Sargent in the air force.  i think that either way you chose the cadets will respect you and more than likely will come to you for a lot of advice.

[Camas]

Sgt Smith - you are asking some great questions and I salute you for that.  May I share my experience when I first joined - and I'm no CAP veteran, believe me!

  When I first joined my former squadron I met a delightful lady who volunteered the fact that she was a major and she would introduce me to the squadron commander; a captain.  Well, with my military background, my question was, "If you're a major and he's a captain, how come you're not the commander?"  As Mr. Fischer has mentioned, rank and assignments can differ.

  Lt Johnston brings up another point about participating in professional development opportunities as an NCO; yes, there are some restrictions on taking some of the AFIADL courses such as Squadron Officer School.  Please refer to CAPR 50-17 Chapter 8; you'll find full particulars there.

  C/2d Lt Jacobs mentioned that here in ORWG our Director of Cadet Programs is, in fact, a Chief Master Sergeant.  This gentleman is a former command sergeant major from the Army and, at 6'6", he's a non-com all the way.  Just a great asset to our wing.  I'm privileged to know and work with him.  We actually have two NCO's on our staff, a senior master sergeant who also assists in cadet programs.  Being an NCO can be a great asset to cadets as they'll have the opportunity to see someone like you who does it "for real" in the military service.

  You will also find that the vast majority of CAP officers have never seen military service so you've got some exposure to the military environment that they lack.  Many, of course, are former cadets so they can be a great resource.

  You also had some concerns about drill.  I'm not a "drill" expert (it's been 35 years since I was in the service) however I can tell you that Army and Air Force drill are different.  Please be sure to check with some knowledgable people in your squadron; they can help you in this endeavor.

[whatevah]

Well, first off...  CAP grade means nothing.  The only grades that mean anything at all are the NCO grades, which are only given to present/former members of the US Armed Forces, and grades Col and above which are for current/former wing, region, and national commanders of CAP.  Officer grade in CAP is just to show how much training you've had (and to get 1st Lt, it doesn't take much at all, Capt is pretty easy, too, just the AFIADL-13 course).  You could have a 1st Lt as a squadron commander, with a Lt Col under him as an Ops officer, something you'll never see in the real military.

Personally, I give more respect to NCOs in CAP than I ever will to a CAP officer (unless I know that they earned their grade through the military).  But, I've been in CAP for 7 years and know how it works. Average senior members probably won't catch on for a year or two.

Being an NCO in CAP won't restrict you from attending any CAP activities.

[Eclipse]

Ah, yes - one of my favorites - "Grade means nothing..." and "Capt is easy", from someone w/ 7 years in and still wearing a single bar.  Wait, let me guess, you've been too busy doing "real" CAP work to take ECI 13 and do some staff work for the tech rating. 

whatevah.

To the good Sgt.

First, cadets especially, will respect you for your knowledge, bearing and professionalism, regardless of your grade.

Second, if you really disdain the role of an officer that much, I would say keep your stripes but turn down the Ops gig.

"...I'm the type of person that wants to be down in the dirt right along side of my men, not behind a desk blindly making policies and plans..."

Operations is not a field-duty position.  Your job would be to spend time "behind a desk making policies and plans" (hopefully not blindly).

That is the difference between officers and NCO's, officers plan and direct, NCO's execute.  One problem we have in CAP is too many Sgt's who want to be officers,
but cannot think strategically or big picture.

An outstanding ground search asset may not have what it takes to create and run a Wing level ES plan.

Officers point, NCO's shoot.  They are both valuable, and one is useless w/o the other.
If you prefer being an operational asset, stick with that - take a role that has you being a shooter, not a pointer.

Practically speaking, the blue stripes look silly on the BDU's, and you may well have issues down the road with professional development, though I'm sure that's negotiable).  You will have no progression track though, and your CAP grade will never change unless you are promoted in your Guard service.  I know several active CAP members who kept their stripes, and then were sorry later. Back-dating aside, if you choose in 5 years to go officer "just because", you'll start as a 2Lt.

Also, courtesies will require you salute every officer in CAP, even after you've had considerable experience - since there are no NCO ranks in CAP, this can get annoying after a while when you have the most experience in your unit and have to salute a
butter-bar newb.  It sounds like you are great w/ Cadets, so you know how important
adherence to proper courtesies is around them.

Also, as a Senior, you out-rank cadets and they should render you salutes - which will be bizarre for you if you stay in NCO mode all the time.  In fact, I'm not sure how
you'd handle this - especially if you rise to a command position.

Take this as a different organization, and as a challenge to try new things.  You'll learn a different kind of leadership.  In a lot of cases, officers have to lead people that they have nothing in common with , and who have no confidence in them.  This can be much harder than running with your buddies who have all seen your abilities in action.

For the most part, CAP members work together on a professional level, and grade doesn't play much part, but every once in a while you have to lean on that shiny insignia to get things done, and that's what they are there for.

[whatevah]

Ah, yes - one of my favorites - "Grade means nothing..." and "Capt is easy", from someone w/ 7 years in and still wearing a single bar.  Wait, let me guess, you've been too busy doing "real" CAP work to take ECI 13 and do some staff work for the tech rating. 

whatevah.

if rank meant something, and wing HQ didn't mess up my paperwork, I'd already be a Captain.  I'm only 21, and I've got the AFIADL 13 (change from ECI a couple years ago) textbook 50 feet from me.  Yes, I'm a former cadet, switched over to senior at age 19, but my promotion paperwork was delayed/lost by the wing professional development officer for a year (when I was on wing staff, guy never came around and I didn't care), until I switched back to a unit (as unit commander) and did my own paperwork.

A friend of mine has been a 1st Lt for 10 years.  Is he stupid, worthless, etc?  Nope.  Just doesn't care about grade or promotions. He could be a Major if he felt like it.

Your soundbyte "officers plan and direct, NCO's execute" is cute, but wrong for CAP as the unit commanders point, and everybody else executes.  Like I said before, that unit commander could be a 1st Lt or Capt, telling multiple Lt Cols what to do.

If he decided to switch over to CAP officer ranks, he may be able to be promoted up to Capt or Maj based upon his education or profession. And, nothing prevents him from taking the SLS, CLC, etc courses and working on a specialty track or two, so the Time in Grade would be the only thing holding him back, which isn't very long.

The blue/white stripes look nice to some, silly to others, it's just a matter of personal taste.

[MIKE]

Also, as a Senior, you out-rank cadets and they should render you salutes - which will be bizarre for you if you stay in NCO mode all the time.  In fact, I'm not sure how you'd handle this - especially if you rise to a command position.

b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of
the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a
greeting and a symbol of mutual respect.  As such, it is never
inappropriate to salute another individual. The basic rules
regarding saluting for CAP members are: ...
(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and
warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to
you.
(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are
formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.

Emphasis added.

If he serves as an NCO or even as a Senior Member without grade, it is not required that he be saluted since he would not be an officer by definition.

[flyguy06]

Hey Twold. I amalso in the Army National Guard. (currently deployed in Iraq waitng vigurously for the 34thID) I have been working with CAP for many many years. I was a cadet in the 80's and am currrntly a Senior member. I will try to answer your questions.

First, about open ranks march. Remember, CAP models the AIer Force. Air Force D+C is a little different than Army D+C. If you notice in USAF D+C when they do a column movememnt they pick up the half step until the leader says forward march. We dont do that inthe Army. SO,you just have to realize Drill is different. Its very different inthe USMC.

As to the second question. Again you are trying to equated CAP to the Army. DOnt do that. It doesnt matter if you are an officer or an NCO. The pay is the same and you can be just as involved with training cadets as anyone eles. We in CAP hold rank more so to as a reward to members who have done well. I have only known one person that held NCO rank. He was a retired USMC Gunnery Sergeant. Eventually he became a 2LT. It makes no difference in CAP. Its not likethe army where NCO's strictly train and officers do paperwork. We all have a piece inthe pie. And remember the whole purpose of the cadet program is to train future CAP senior members. Its like ROTC.

Good luck and I wish you well and I am glad you decided to stay. We need more Army folks to help square CAP away. Hooah

[Pylon]

One other thing to consider is that if you choose to take NCO grade, your NCO grade will not change unless your Armed Forces rank changes.

You can take all the professional development courses and complete the entire SM program up to Level V, but you'll stay at the same grade in CAP: whatever NCO grade you hold or held last in the military.  You will not be able to promote in CAP.

The only thing I see the NCO thing holding you back from are certain activities that specify a certain SM officer grade to attend, such as National Staff College which requires the grade of Major to attend (a requirement which even the National Commander can't waive for a SM, according to the regs).

You are a professional NCO, but realize that there is no real NCO corps in Civil Air Patrol.  You won't have NCO colleages at your unit, no first sergeant, no chief.  You'll be reporting to officers, and whether required to or not, you'll be getting salutes from cadets who don't know what you are.

CAP has cadets, who are of both NCO and Officer grades, but the cadets promote next to Second Lieutenant after they've reached Chief Master Sergeant -- a different concept than the military as well.  As for the Senior Members, I've only met one NCO (a retired USAF SMSgt), who eventually converted over to the officer grade he had earned through his CAP professional development and became a CAP Lieutenant Colonel and has stayed that since.

Keep in mind, that your choice to go NCO or officer is not a permanant one.  You can choose to go the officer route, decide you want to be a CAP NCO, and then convert back to your earned officer grade again at any time with the drop of a CAPF 2. 

In either case, whatever you decide, be sure to pursue avidly your CAP professional development.  If you decide to be an NCO, you may find no motivation to do so because you cannot promote, but the professional development courses, specialty track ratings, etc. will qualify you for increased responsibility and you will learn a lot from the courses.  Especially coming from a different military culture, CAP can often be confusing.  Courses like the Level I orientation course and SLS (Squadron Leadership School) will be things you'll want to do very early on -- you'll find it a huge help. 

Best of luck, whatever your decision is.

[Pylon]

Ah, yes - one of my favorites - "Grade means nothing..." and "Capt is easy", from someone w/ 7 years in and still wearing a single bar.  Wait, let me guess, you've been too busy doing "real" CAP work to take ECI 13 and do some staff work for the tech rating. 

whatevah.

Actually, I've been in CAP for 9 years and I still have a single bar, too.  Like Jerry, I was also a cadet for a number of years and only became a SM two years ago.  I qualify for Captain, earned my COP and have my time in grade for Capt, but will not request the promotion. 

Captain is a very easy grade to attain.  If you start out as a Senior Member without grade, the minimum time in grade you'd have to sit and wait for Captain is 3 years through the traditional promotion method.  In three years, it should be real easy to find time to watch two videos (Level I), sit through a weekend lecture series (SLS), earn a simple tech-rating in anything, and take a self-paced correspondence test (AFIADL-13).  That's three years you'll have to do that.  Some people, schedule depending, could knock that out in their first 6-months and simply wait out their promotions.

Oh, and for the record, "doing real CAP work" like being a unit Commander does make it too hard to advance.  One cannot progress in other specialty tracks when assigned to the Commander position since the false "Command" specialty track has no ratings or progression built-in - therefore, those assigned to the Command specialty track are stuck at a hiatus for professional development because NHQ hasn't seen fit to put any material behind the Command track, which they insist isn't even a specialty.

[JaL5597]

Ah, yes - one of my favorites - "Grade means nothing..." and "Capt is easy", from someone w/ 7 years in and still wearing a single bar.  Wait, let me guess, you've been too busy doing "real" CAP work to take ECI 13 and do some staff work for the tech rating. 

whatevah.

Been a Senior member for 8 years and wearing a gold bar. 

Your right I did spend alot of time doing "Real CAP Work" and not worrying about my professional development. 

I have served as a Squadron Communications Officer, Public Affairs Officer, Leadership Officer, and was Acting Deputy Commander for Cadets.  I currently serve as Wing Historian and Assistant Director of Cadet Programs.

When I pass the test for AFIADL 13 I will have all the requirements for my COP completed.  It doesn't mean I will be seeing railroad tracks anytime soon.

My being a 2d Lt doesn't prevent me from doing my jobs.  When I am on CAP business they see me as the whatever I represent at the time.  If they hold a CAP grade that requires a "Sir" or "Ma'am" and a salute I do it. 

[WICAPMOM]

I am guilty of the "to - busy" excuse as well.    I was even guilty of it as a cadet.

I was a cadet for 4 1/2 years and I have been a SM for 14 years.

I was a cadet officer but I only made it to C/1Lt.  Had I planned things out I would have had enough time to make C/Col.  Plus at the time I was a cadet there were only 13 achievements.

As a senior the "butter bar" was almost instantaneous.  With the time I have been, in I should have been an Lt Col already.  The only requirement I yet to meet is the staff college or equivalent I am not planning on it any time soon.

To be honest I would not be this far, except for the fact that my commander kept on me.

I do not judge people by the rank, although I do respect he rank.

[Twolf]

Flyguy06,
     When my brother gets there will you tell him "hi" for me? He's the NCOIC of the brigade TOC for the 1/34th BCT. I personally know just about every one of the 3,000 Guardsmen that are going to replace you - kind of a small world (guard) huh? (By the way, the column half-step thing drives me CRAZY! I've been marching the cadets and been wondering "Why the HECK are we doing a half-step?!...... OH YEAH!")

To everyone else,
     Thank you for your responses and information. I'm actually still a little confused though. I guess I just don't understand how you can not have an NCO corps. Maybe if I go to SLS or some corporate thingy (it's next month) I'll understand it better.
     So here's another thing that I've been thinking about. My sq made a deal with me that I can wear my service's uniform (Got the fancy new ACUs) when I'm doing things with CAP - that way I don't have to deal with multiple uniforms. Also at wing events it says that current military members can wear their service's uniform if they're on orders to be there - I'm a recruiter so I'm on orders 24/7 so I plan on wearing my service's uniform all the time. So for less confusion I'm thinking the NCO corps might be better.
     In all honesty, I don't really want to be the commander of anything. Being the Operations NCO (officer for the rest of you apparently) I get to be involved in all the training of the cadets. From scheduling to the completion of training. That fits my wants/personality just perfectly. If I can get that job done being an NCO, then great. I'm just worried that people will think "he doesn't know what he's talking about, he's just a Sergeant" or something like that when it comes to planning and training issues. Not so much at my sq, but at wing events.

[Chris Jacobs]

I am going to reassure you that no one will look down on you at all for being a Sergent.  if any thing they will look up to you.

for the saluting.  if you are truly uncomfortable about it ask the cadets not to do it for you.  It may not be right in the regs but i don't know if it is wrong either.

[Westernslope]

.

[Eclipse]

The "I'm a Commander, and don't have time for my own development." Is a great way to find yourself out of a job when your term limit is over with nothing to show for your time but a certificate of appreciation.

As background, I am a unit CC, serve on Group staff, run an encampment, and am active enough in ES to have served in Katrina (HEY, I ROCK! >blech<).  As a leader, I can't take a "do as I say, not as I do attitude".  If professional development and progression is important for my members, it's important for me.  My laurels get no rest.

Twolf - I have an issue with your plan.  If you are a recruiter, you may have found a loophole with regards to your being on orders "24x7", but it sounds like an expedient stretch at best.

My issue is that your authority to participate does not come from the Army National Guard, it comes from the USAF Auxiliary.  The uniforms are not even the same color, and it would be quesionable what value, beyond easing your personal dilemma, it would serve.

DISCLAIMER - I ABSOLUTLEY RESPECT AND APPRECIATE YOUR SERVICE!  Don't miss that in this technical discussion of the regulations.

Anyway, in terms of CAP, you're really going to be out of uniform, which may be a violation of CPPT, especially if your 24-7 interperatation doesn't stick. We have some real issues my way with event commanders who choose on their own to wear their desert camos, or other non-CAP uniform and then wonder why they have insubordination issues and similar problems.

That's why they call it a "uniform" - so we all look the same, and things like hair length, and your clothes don't get in the way of performance and interaction.  Once the uniqueness of the situation wears off, I promise you that some fellow members will wonder if you view CAP as a "second class" organization, and don't have enough respect for it to wear our uniform properly.

There is also the issue of personal liability.  You and your CC may believe that being a recruiter translates into "24x7 orders", but I wonder what CAP legal or the Wing CC would think about that.  If you, or someone else got hurt, or you damaged equipment in the course of CAP activities, you may find that the insurance company or USAF doesn't agree with your interpretation, therefore you are out of uniform, ergo - S-O-L.  Please pay the cashier on the way out.

There is also the issue of CAP insignia - you'll never be able to wear any of it.  Your Army ribbons, CIB, and specialty badges are rewards for hard work done, but meaningless to another CAP member trying to figure out who / what you are in the CAP world.

Also, let's not forget about the restrictions against most active military (and even CAP to an extent) wearing BDU's in public, or anywhere not on duty.  In fact your Guard CC may not allowyou to wear the uniform in this way (state's vary).
I know when O'Hare was open, my buddy used to tell me that his Reserve CC activley discouraged the special license plates and wearing uniforms in public because it exposed their people to Force Protection risks - and that was way befor 9/11.

Unless you're planning on doing outdoor activities in your service dress, that's a problem as well.  As a soldier, your experience in field activities could be invaluable to cadets an seniors learning to be Ground team personnel, but you can't run an FTX in your service dress, a) it's against regs, b) it will get expensive, c) you'd look silly with an LBV over your dress blouse.

At a minimum I would request a letter from the MN Wing CC & your Guard post CC authorizing your plan. 

If the choice is going to be Army Green, or USAF blue w/ your stripes, go with the blue.  This is the USAF Aux, not the Guard.

[flyguy06]

Hey Twolf,

Yes, it is a small Guard world. I work in my Battalion's TOC and I interact withthe Brigade TOC constantly, so when they get here, I probably will run into him during the right seat/left seat rides. PM me and lets talk about some things.


Again, about CAP, I will tell youit doesnt matter what your rank is. You canbe just as active with cadets if youae an officer or an NCO. I am a Capt and I march cadets all the time. To be honest, the cadet programis supposed to run itself. The cadets are suposed to do the marching of each other not the senior members. The cadets are supposed to come up with the training schedule. Not the Senior member. The cadet program is a leadership program. We have to let the cadets do the work to develop their leadership skills. We are just there to assist. The reason I am so involved is because my unit is fairly young and we dont have many cadets. But believe me, as soon as my cadets get NCO rank, they will be doing all the formations and drilling and that. Yes, I do wear my Army Dress blues at functions. I usually stand out so I think Iam going to get away from that. Iwould not recommend you wear your army uniform at meetings though. Anyone else on here can correct me if I am wrong but I believe the regs say in order to interact with cadets, the SM MUST be in a CAP uniform or corporate attire.

I know, I had to suck it up and put onthe blues. I wear BDU's as much as possible. (I hate the ACU's anyway) It sets the proper example to show the cadets the proper way to wear the CAP uniform if you have it on yourself. Well, thats what I think. Give me a PM. Later.

[Twolf]

Twolf - I have an issue with your plan.  If you are a recruiter, you may have found a loophole with regards to your being on orders "24x7", but it sounds like an expedient stretch at best.

I assure you I am on orders 24/7 - my command reminds me of that every day!

DISCLAIMER - I ABSOLUTLEY RESPECT AND APPRECIATE YOUR SERVICE!  Don't miss that in this technical discussion of the regulations.

Thank You

Anyway, in terms of CAP, you're really going to be out of uniform, which may be a violation of CPPT, especially if your 24-7 interperatation doesn't stick.

If need be, I can have orders that directly say to support the CAP

We have some real issues my way with event commanders who choose on their own to wear their desert camos, or other non-CAP uniform and then wonder why they have insubordination issues and similar problems.

Like I said before, I've been involved for over a year, just recently became a member. So far it has never been a problem - it usually turns into a topic of conversation for people visiting on meeting nights. I obviously have never participated in wing events before - but I have been at the same post as cadets at wing encampments and stuff twice. The first time I was a Drill Sergeant and specifically told my cadets to stay far away from me if they saw me. One of them ran into me (litterally) in the PX, looked at me and ran the other way. The second time I just happened to be down there while my unit was down there and stopped in to see how things were going and to see if I could observe training. I didn't get to do much with them, just ask my cadets how things were going and watch them do some D&C - but the cadets that weren't in my sq were very respectful now that I think about it. I guess I don't see why there would be any insubordination issues.

I promise you that some fellow members will wonder if you view CAP as a "second class" organization, and don't have enough respect for it to wear our uniform properly.

I'm going to be open, honest and direct here. Do I respect CAP as an organization? Yes - otherwise I wouldn't join it. Do I hold my military organization in a higher light? Absolutely. I love the Guard, I have dedicated my life to service in it. The only thing more important to me is my Family. It's not that I view CAP as a "second class" organization - but in all reality it makes itself out to be "second class". I can't find it right now, but in the D&C Manual about saluting, it says that CAP members will salute officers (and NCOs I think) in Military uniform, reguardless of service. HOWEVER is says right in the same paragraph that Military Service Members do not have to salute back! The CAP puts itself down a rung or two on the ladder because THEY (by regulation) put Military Service on a pedistool(sp?)

Also, let's not forget about the restrictions against most active military (and even CAP to an extent) wearing BDU's in public, or anywhere not on duty.  In fact your Guard CC may not allowyou to wear the uniform in this way (state's vary).

As a recruiter it's my duty to wear my uniform everywhere I go (except the bar). I take pride in it. I am authorized to wear "alternate uniforms" (read civies) but I wear my ACUs every day because I am proud of my service to my country and proud to be a member of the National Guard.

There is also the issue of personal liability.  You and your CC may believe that being a recruiter translates into "24x7 orders", but I wonder what CAP legal or the Wing CC would think about that. 

If it were a problem, why would wing put out a policy stating that service members can wear their service's uniform as long as they're on orders.

There is also the issue of CAP insignia - you'll never be able to wear any of it.  Your Army ribbons, CIB, and specialty badges are rewards for hard work done, but meaningless to another CAP member trying to figure out who / what you are in the CAP world.

My understanding is that I could wear any of my military ribbons on my CAP uniform. Wouldn't they be just as confused, if not more then?

Unless you're planning on doing outdoor activities in your service dress, that's a problem as well.  As a soldier, your experience in field activities could be invaluable to cadets an seniors learning to be Ground team personnel, but you can't run an FTX in your service dress, a) it's against regs, b) it will get expensive, c) you'd look silly with an LBV over your dress blouse.

I wear ACUs every day - I only break out the Class Bs (no jacket) on laundry days or says when I feel like dressing up. Class As are hardly EVER worn because I've got the Army Dress Blues! That uniform ROCKS! (And it's expansive!)

At a minimum I would request a letter from the MN Wing CC & your Guard post CC authorizing your plan. 

Won't be a problem.

If the choice is going to be Army Green, or USAF blue w/ your stripes, go with the blue.  This is the USAF Aux, not the Guard.

Trust me, I will have a set or two of CAP uniforms (dress and BDU), for instances when I cannot wear my ACUs. But I will wear my ACUs every chance I get. It's an option for me and I will take advantage of it, mostly as a personal preference.

The reason I am so involved is because my unit is fairly young and we dont have many cadets.

My sq is the same way.

Yes, I do wear my Army Dress blues at functions. I usually stand out so I think Iam going to get away from that. Iwould not recommend you wear your army uniform at meetings though. Anyone else on here can correct me if I am wrong but I believe the regs say in order to interact with cadets, the SM MUST be in a CAP uniform or corporate attire.

In my wing they wanted to make sure that I went through the training to make sure I knew not to be a chimo before I joined. My DCC was the one who brought up wearing ACUs initially after I joined.

I know, I had to suck it up and put onthe blues. I wear BDU's as much as possible. (I hate the ACU's anyway) It sets the proper example to show the cadets the proper way to wear the CAP uniform if you have it on yourself.

My sq wears BDUs every week, except one. If they're in BDUs, I'm in ACUs. If they're in dress uniform, I'm in dress uniform (unless work prevents me from doing so in both cases. I do wear "alternate uniforms" sometimes.) I LOVE the ACUs. MUCH more confertable than the BDU or DCU.

This next comment may offend some people, or it may not. We'll see. The CAP is not a recruiting tool for the USAF. It is not a recruiting tool for anything. But we've all admitted that a lot of cadets will go off and join a service when they graduate high school. What is the harm in letting them know that there are other things out there? That's basically doing by wearing the ACUs. I know you're all saying "Wait... this guy's a RECRUITER and he's in CAP! GET HIM OUT HE'S ONLY THERE TO GET MORE CANNON FODDER!" I will assure you that is not the case. I'll admit that was my initial interest in CAP - but that is the last thing on my mind. I love interacting with the kids - watching them learn and grow as airmen and as young adults. We've got some kids that are in our sq who just need a good rolemodel in their lives - I fill that void. I'm making a difference in these kids lives and that makes me feel good. That's my interest in CAP. If a kid asks about military service - I'll answer him honestly and to the best of my abilities. But I could care less if any CAP kids join or not. If they are going to join I want them to know that there is more out there... (waiting patiently for the backlash....)

[thefischNX01]

No backlash here. 

Sounds like a plan, as long as you'll have a few CAP uniforms for "just in case" scenerios.  The CAP Blues are not too bad, I'll admit that I prefer them to the BDU's, (but the Flightsuit is god as far as I'm concerned). 

Anyway...Welcome aboard!  (no wait, that's the Sea Cadets... )

[flyguy06]

Actually, CAP is a recruiting tool for the USAF andother services. Most Active duty recruiters kow and sale CAP to high school studentes when they talk. When I said you should wear the BDU's to set the example. I meant just that. The "same" unifrom the cadets wear. If you wear ACU's (or Army BDU's) you are NOT showing the cadets how to wear the approved CAP uniform correctly. The only time I wear an army uniform is at a banquet at the Wing Conference. Other than that, Iwear whet my cadets wear. I used to be a TAC Oficer at state OCS. I believe inteaching the Army Leadership Principles. number 5 is my favorite. Set the example. Idont know why your wing authorized you to wear ACU's. I thik you may have misinterpreted the meaning. When they say as long as you are on orders, they mean orders supporting CAP. If they meant any one on active duty, you would see a lot of active duty folks wearing ther uniforms and you just dont see that. If you are orders suporting CAP inthe couse of your military job you canwear your military uniform.FOr example, the USAF Liasion Officer. Thats their military job to support CAP, so they are allowed to wear the USAF uniform.

What you need to do is seperate the army and the military for that matter from CAP. CAP is "not" the militay (I cant belive I said that after my initial post onthis board). Do not equzte the two. We aree volunteers. Most people in CAP have never been in the military. Its only a small few. You said we put ourselves outto be second class because we dont require military members to salute our officers. Thats because our officers are not commissioned. They are volunteers. I really dont see a private saluting a hardware staore owner that chooses to be in CAP. We have a senior member who is a MAjor. He has never been in the ,military. He is a commercial pilot. He outranks me here. I dont always cal him siror salute him. In CAP. we dont neccessarily follow the same rules to the tee as in the military.Stop equating the two. Go onthe NAtional website and read up onCAP a little more. Goto a NAtional activity. That may give you more persepctive on CAP. Half the senior members dont even wear miliyary uniforms. They choose to wear the blue shirt and grey slacks but they stil hold the rank of Major and LT Col and so forth. They dont do it for uniforms or to be saluted. they do it to serve their country and their community. Take care

[Eclipse]

Twolf - As long as you get authorization from the Wing CC & your Army CC, you'll be covered from a liability standpoint if something bad happens.

I think I caught someone here saying "it hasn't been a problem so far..." well, that's how it works, you could show up in shorts and a t-shirt, and until someone calls yo on it, or you bend an airframe, there's no problem.  However, once something bad does happen, it'll be too late to start garnering the authorizations.

Your Army experience in leadership and discipline (as well as any specific technical skills) will be infinitely valuable to you fellow members, both Senior and cadet, however to equate CAP as a direct line to the military won't serve you as well.

wearing a different uniform calls attention to your difference in ways which may not be a productive as you think.

Yes, you are allowed to wear military ribbons on your CAP uniform, but that is not the point either.  Your CAP uniform is supposed to tell your CAP story to other CAP people, the same way your Army one does to fellow Guardsmen.  Your Army uniform speaks
volumes about your Army career and tells me nothing I need to know as a CAP member - not your experience in the organization, your accomplishments, or your likely qualifications - thus defeating the purpose of wearing it in the first place.

As to the saluting thing, as mentioned, we are appointed officers, versus commissioned, and are not bound by UCMJ.  Since we are "only" a paramilitary agency, there would be no way to require courtesies from other branches as is required of the other services, we as members, >ARE< required to render courtesies to all branches of the military,
AND EACH OTHER - it's not an option, and I don't agree with Flyboy's not thinking it's a big deal.

I spend a lot of time on an active Navy base, and regularly received salutes all over the base.  I don't stop them and explain the deal, I just return the courtesy and move on.

The RDC's are real tough on the recruits here in having them salute us for two reasons:

a)  They are taught to salute the grade and not necessarily the man.

b) Allowing a recruit, or really anyone else, to filter their saluting is dangerous -
Lord help them if they guess wrong!  Because of all the BRAC's, the base I'm on
has an increasingly diverse assortment of uniforms - and all the wear testing around
here isn't helping either (RDC's wearing red-cords over the new BDUs!  Bizarre!).

On he other hand, I have vigorously gig'ed CAP members who thought they were hot sit officers and dressed down a recruit or WORSE for not saluting.  If they throw one, cool, makes my day, if not, I don't think twice.  I'm more worried about skewing their world than mine.  These guys have bigger problems.

Lastly - of course CAP is a recruiter's dream - motivated young people who have already started to train in drill, uniform wear and other similiar diciplines?  If it wasn't, why would the Army and Air Force offer the extra stripe for Mitchell? 

And let's not forget all the schloaship opportunities, etc. 

[flyguy06]

Hey Eclipse,

I agree 100% of what you said. IThe only reason I say saluting is no big deal to me is becasue like you said we are not bound by UICMJ. You mayu have a CAP Lt Col that doesnt wear the militay uniform. He may choose to wear the civilain blue shirt and grey pants. Since we only salute people in uniform. I would not salute him.

Secondly, I am a "real" officer in the Army Guard. I am bound by UCMJ to salute and it is a curteousy that I earned. I greet those that outrank me and I give them the greeting of the day (Good Morning sir/ma'am). It gets confusing sometimes when you have this array of volunteers in your organization.

[Eclipse]

I believe if you read the regs, there is a note that even in civilian dress, if you are aware of a person's officer status, cap or otherwise, it is appropriate to salute.

Your example of the Lt. Col. in a golf shirt is the perfect sad example.  In my personal experience, many of these gentlemen are the least deserving of a salute, and the most peeved when they don't get it – regardless of their dress that day.

Another problem I have up this way is that just as a matter of "common" (or is it uncommon these days) courtesy I have gotten into a "bad" habit of calling everyone Sir, or Ma'am.

Makes me polite in the "real" world, and on occasions generates an embarrassed stare from the Chiefs if I drop one on them by accident in front of the recruits.  (whoops!)

[flyguy06]

And that is my point exactly. Iguess in my squadron, and I dont neccessarily agree with this, but the members in my unit dont take CAP as serioulsy as you guys or I do. They see it s a volunteer organiztion and they cancome and go as they please. Most of them are not military oriented and dont know much about saluting sothey dont do it. If the Wing Commander came into the room,  ( I kow cause this has happned) they just sit there and smile and say hello. Had I been inthe rom at the time, of course I would have called attention, but they would have just looked at me like "what?"My commander is a Vietnam vet but he is just a nice old man who doesnt take CAP for real either. I mean, in the military, if I dont salute, I get writtenup, but what areu gonna do to a senior member who doesnt salute? ANd theyknow this.If you threaten them, they will leave and not come back, and your membership goes down.

[Eclipse]

"They see it s a volunteer organization and they can come and go as they please..."

This may be the single biggest problem w/ CAP right now - you can find plenty of my ranting on this topic in other places.  Members who think this is a flying club, and then are mad when local ES or military resources won't take them seriously.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you can’t have it both ways – from either a proficiency standpoint or respect.

"If you threaten them, they will leave and not come back, and your membership goes down..."

Oh if only this were true! To me, 10 active, professional, members are much more valuable than 60 empty flight suits.

If I'm repeating myself, I apologize, but I see our duel role as this:

We have some members who join the "Civil Air Patrol" - only interested in the
corporate side of the house in terms of uniforms and activities.

And others, like myself, who joined the "US Air Force Auxiliary", who are interested in the discipline and (in some cases) sacrifice of a more stringent paramilitary organization.

I have absolutely no issue with the CAP'ers. as long as they understand that, with the exception of their shirts not being as complicated, >ALL< the regs are the same, including courtesies.

My experience, unfortunately, has been that many of our members who are, frankly, just lazy ROMEOs, use “this just CAP" as an excuse for poor performance, appearance, and attitude.

Also, it's not that I necessarily take CAP more seriously than others (maybe), but more that I recognize that we all potentially carry the entire organization on our backs any time we interact with the public or the military.

I know we always get a pass from active resources with regards to courtesies and other issues, but the more we can speak their language, and live in "their world", the easier it is to get things done.

Conversely, we may not be bound by UCMJ or related common sense, but the more we act like we "own the joint" when trying to get things done, the less there may be for us to do as we will wear out our welcome quickly.

[Eclipse]

Also, it should be notes, but is sometimes lost, that while many of us disagree on nuances, the mere fact of taking the time to be involved in discussions here, and CAP Blog, and similar, probably puts you on the plus end of the "taking it seriously" scale.

[JaL5597]

If I'm repeating myself, I apologize, but I see our duel role as this:

We have some members who join the "Civil Air Patrol" - only interested in the
corporate side of the house in terms of uniforms and activities.

And others, like myself, who joined the "US Air Force Auxiliary", who are interested in the discipline and (in some cases) sacrifice of a more stringent paramilitary organization.

I have absolutely no issue with the CAP'ers. as long as they understand that, with the exception of their shirts not being as complicated, >ALL< the regs are the same, including courtesies.

My experience, unfortunately, has been that many of our members who are, frankly, just lazy ROMEOs, use "this just CAP" as an excuse for poor performance, appearance, and attitude.

Also, it's not that I necessarily take CAP more seriously than others (maybe), but more that I recognize that we all potentially carry the entire organization on our backs any time we interact with the public or the military.

I know we always get a pass from active resources with regards to courtesies and other issues, but the more we can speak their language, and live in "their world", the easier it is to get things done.

Conversely, we may not be bound by UCMJ or related common sense, but the more we act like we "own the joint" when trying to get things done, the less there may be for us to do as we will wear out our welcome quickly.

Umm?

How is their a distinction?  Don't we all belong to the same program?  Don't we all belong to the Civil Air Patrol which in 1948 was incorporated by Federal Law as the Air Force Auxilary?

Thats one of the things that really irks me.  This percieved line of distinction.  It really doesn't matter if your wearing Service Dress or CAP Greys.  Or BDUs or the Blue Field Uniform.  We all carry the same membership cards all serve the same chain of command.

Each member is going to have diffrent reasons for joining and participating.  I do not see where it even requires most members to wear a uniform on a regular basis.  The only people required to are those working with the cadets.  And since that is only one third of our mission, well people can figure that out.

Too many times I have run into people who see being in CAP as "military" and try to "act like the military" which means they act like total idiots.  I was reemed infront of the wing commander by a fellow member because I referred to my sister as well, my sister. 

Personally I think if we get the diffrent ideas of what CAP is and what people think it is (I refuse to call it The Air Force Auxilary) all back onto the same page, we can finally get people to take us seriously. 

The Civil Air Patrol predates the Air Force.  we should be prould of the history and traditions of the orginization.  While alot of people do not like the people who fail to follow all the militaryness, you need to remember these are the people who founded CAP in December 1941.  These are the people who flew little planes and managed to sink German U-Boats during World War 2.

[Eclipse]

As a matter of history, if you look at the photos of the guys dropping the bombs, you will see they are always in the Army "pinks". As this was a time of record patriotism and military pride, I seriously doubt there was much jaw-boning or complaining when these men, who for whatever reason were unable to serve overseas, were granted the privilege to serve in uniform in the states.

In WWII, uniformed service was viewed as almost literally “paying” for your freedom, and while the CD people checking blacked-out windows during air raid drills were certainly important, I guarantee you CAP was 2 notches higher on the cool scale, especially as an aviator.

I, in fact, have several members who have 50 & 60+ years of service, including at least one who was a WWII POW – you never have to remind >these guys< of the importance of proper uniform wear, it’s usually the gen-X’er, corporate mover / pilot types who “don’t have time for it”. 

And again, repeating myself -  buy the house you see, not the house it could be.

The Civil Air Patrol >IS< the auxiliary of the Air Force, without that distinction we’re just another youth group.

Without the military connection, there’s no planes, no money, and no mission.

[JaL5597]

Without the military connection, there's no planes, no money, and no mission.

Thats why all our aircraft have civil registeration and all of our vehicles are registered in the states.

You may call us the Air Force Auxilary all you want.  But we are the Civil Air Patol.  Which is Federally Chartered as the Auxilary of the Air Force.

We are a federally chartered nonprofit.  We happen to have ties with the Air Force, and they provide funding for missions that we perform at their discretion. 

But hey whatever.  Its all semantics.  And I will remember that when I show up in my civvies unshaven to my squadron.  Doesn't mean I am any less capable of doing any of the jobs assigned to me than someone who shows up in a tightly pressed uniform with spit shined shoes.

[PWK-GT]

Spell-check is your friend.

But hey whatever.  Its all semantics.  And I will remember that when I show up in my civvies unshaven to my squadron.  Doesn't mean I am any less capable of doing any of the jobs assigned to me than someone who shows up in a tightly pressed uniform with spit shined shoes.

Hopefully, you are not in the public eye with this attitude. We all have had different experiences with CAP, and I recognize that this is all VOLUNTARY, but you DID join the Air Force Auxilliary.......your motives and mileage may vary. The argument about standardized uniforms has been beaten to death in other threads, I don't expect it will ever be agreed upon by ALL members....too much non-standardized personal experience affects this topic..like are you in an ES-heavy unit, or a Cadet Programs-based smaller unit?
But my question is this: Why is there such resistance to a protocol (ie: military courtesy) that exists to lend some professionalism to our endeavours (not to mention in SOME units this greatly affects their ability to smoothly interact w/ other agencies--like during ES)? We may not all have the type of CAP jobs that benefit from simple courtesies, but how is going the 'extra mile' harmful to the individual or the Organization? I also have to wonder why people join CAP, as it exists, and then want to disregard policies as they see fit. Or is the 'volunteer' nature of this at the core of the problem?
Your thoughts are no less valid than mine--let me make that clear-- but I am trying to understand the rationale.

[flyguy06]

Eclipse,

You didnt read my message carefully. I DID NOT say that I dont take CAP seriously. Isaid members in my squadron dont take it seriously. Itake CAP very seriously. But you did say something that caused me concern. You said you are interested in dicsipline and sacrafice and a more stringent paramilitary organization. Well, my friend, then youshould have joined or stayed inthe military.

You also said people complain when they dont egt the ES resources. The members in my unit could care les about ES. None of them are involved in ES> I am the only one.

Like i said, I take CAP seriously. I am a GTM> former Mission scanner and observer. I joined CAP to encourage youth to be good leaders and to help out my comunity in times of disaster. Thats my motivation. It has nothing to do with wearing uniforms or pretty ribbons. I do that in the Army. I just need to find a way to motivate the rest of these guys. YOu are right. Iwould rather have 5 squared away members than 25 duds.

I think that in any non profit organization you have those that work and those that are just there to take the credit. I am in many 501(c)3 organizations and I see it all the time.  Its not just in CAP. We have to work around them. I also believe that Squadron Commanders need to be more empowered. Right now, the Wing Commandr is the lowest ranking corporate officer. But he cant be everywhre. If unit CC's had more power to decide the membership status of people and enforce the dress code, things would be better.

Hey guys, please forgive my typing. I am in Iraq and I pnly have 30 minutes to use the ineternet, so Itype fast and sometimes trip on my letters.

[groundpounder]

it's usually the gen-X'er, corporate mover / pilot types who "don't have time for it". 

Eclipse,

Not sure where you are going with this one?? What do you mean "Pilot types?" It seems to me that without the pilots we would not have much to do as the "eyes in the sky." 

[thefischNX01]

About the traditions of CAP...

I just finished reading the book "The Flying Minute Men: The Story of the Civil Air Patrol" which is regretfully out of print, but a good read if you can find it (try E-Bay)

In it, it describes how these weekend pilots were trained to be the military in every sense of the word.  Army Drill Instructors were brought in to teach them how to march, salute, stand at attention and such.  It wasn't an option, it was a requirement.  back then, the military aspect was as much a part of CAP as anything else today.  Arguably, back then it could be argued that CAP was a military.  The members were paid (albeit not a lot) and could be sent anywhere they were needed.  During the sub patrols, pilots from the midwest were ordered to the gulf and Atlantic coasts to provide support.  (granted, it probabaly wasn't as strict as the real military, but all the earmarks are there)
After reading this book, I'm tempted to agree that there needs to be more "Military" injected into CAP, if only because 65 years ago, it was a requirement. 

[JaL5597]

Spell-check is your friend.
Hopefully, you are not in the public eye with this attitude. We all have had different experiences with CAP, and I recognize that this is all VOLUNTARY, but you DID join the Air Force Auxilliary.......your motives and mileage may vary. The argument about standardized uniforms has been beaten to death in other threads, I don't expect it will ever be agreed upon by ALL members....too much non-standardized personal experience affects this topic..like are you in an ES-heavy unit, or a Cadet Programs-based smaller unit?
But my question is this: Why is there such resistance to a protocol (ie: military courtesy) that exists to lend some professionalism to our endeavours (not to mention in SOME units this greatly affects their ability to smoothly interact w/ other agencies--like during ES)? We may not all have the type of CAP jobs that benefit from simple courtesies, but how is going the 'extra mile' harmful to the individual or the Organization? I also have to wonder why people join CAP, as it exists, and then want to disregard policies as they see fit. Or is the 'volunteer' nature of this at the core of the problem?
Your thoughts are no less valid than mine--let me make that clear-- but I am trying to understand the rationale.

To begin with.  I was a member when everyone was allowed to wear the Air Foce Blues and woodland BDUs. 

Oh I am fully aware of the traditions and protocol of CAP.  I am assigned to a 001 squadron, aka wing staff.  As a member of the wing staff I am not obligated to wear a uniform most of the time.  I wear business attire due to a medical condition and my not wanting to spend money on more uniforms that would be worn maybe 3 times a month.

I am a former cadet and have been involved in Cadet Programs for many years.  Its funny.  It doesn't matter if I am wearing Blues, BDUs or civvies.  The cadets respect me and listen to what I have to say.

I spent 7 years at a squadron, leaving them as the Leadership Officer and Acting Deputy Commander for Cadets.  And if all goes accoring to the plans I will be leaving Wing Staff to join another squadron.  Do I wear a uniform every time I am up there?  Yup because that is what is required.  Alot of senior members don't and that is their choice.

Maybe its just the fact that over the last 9 years I have seen the people who just want to do their jobs and those who have the "False Military" ideals.  The "False Military" usually comes from those who never were in the service and do things the way they "know the military does it."  That has lead to some interesting scenes.  I got reemed at wing staff call for calling my sister, well, my sister.  I was at the Topoff 3 mission and got reemed for calling a CAP Major by his first name. 

There is alot of things that need to be fixed out there.  Has anyone every noticed that in many squadrons the cadets who are on the staff never allow the inflight cadets to graduate basic training?  Trust me.  Its there.

There are alot of issues that need to be fixed.  Creating a gap between the "We are a military orginization"  and "we are a corporation" isn't going to help us with our problems.  In a way we are both.  By saying one side or the other is bad isn't really gonna help.  When it comes down to it I really don't care if you are wearing the Air Force style or the CAP style, just as long as you can get your job done safely and effectively.

[Eclipse]

OK, I think we've just about beaten this to death, especially considering that it's getting off topic from Twolf's question, and venturing back to one of the "universal questions" of CAP.

But since I can't >not< stir the pot, a few last rebuttals (unless someone proposes a remedy for gravity, I won't be  in this anymore):

"As a member of the wing staff I am not obligated to wear a uniform most of the time..." DISAGREE: You have MORE obligation than Group or Unit staffers as you set the example.  Medical condition? Unless you're allergic to cotton blends, it won't kill you to pop for a $17 golf shirt.

" The cadets respect me and listen to what I have to say..."
That's assuming they speak to you, and what about the seniors - if my only contact w/ you is across an airfield or crowded room, no uniform to me means you're just another ROMEO  (old or not).

"What do you mean "Pilot types?" It seems to me that without the pilots we would not have much to do as the "eyes in the sky."

What I mean, is guys who think they are zipper-bagged sun gods who can do no wrong, and don't need little details like rules and regs to get in the way of a mission they have been doing for 10 years.  We need pilots, not "pilot types".

As to FLYGUY06, I'm not giving anybody any [mess] who is in the sandbox right now, but I would encourage you to find a new unit when you get home.  If you're the only one interested in ES, its not going to get better no matter what you do.

I did notice this, though,
“If unit CC's had more power to decide the membership status of people and enforce the dress code, things would be better…”

They have both – unit commanders can set UOD’s for events, and membership is a privilege, not a right.  Transfers are powerful tools, we should use them more. Set the tone and the expectations, and encourage members to step up – I was told early on members would vote w/ their feet if they didn’t like what I was doing.  THERE’S THE DOOR!  I’m still CC and we are SRO at meetings.

And my friend JaL5597, beating up the misinformed is so unfair, but you leave yourself open to it with the statements you make.

“That’s why all our aircraft have civil registration and all of our vehicles are registered in the states.

You may call us the Air Force Auxiliary all you want.  But we are the Civil Air Patrol.  Which is Federally Chartered as the Auxiliary of the Air Force.” (corrected)

Yes it is, and thank you for that bold restatement of the obvious.  The duality of our nature is a matter of the practicalities of insurance coverage, funding, and tax breaks for our members.
We are still basically a line-item of the USAF.  They pay for the planes, the radios, and the gas (among other things) – pull that and see what you have.

"And I will remember that when I show up in my civvies unshaven to my squadron.  Doesn't mean I am any less capable of doing any of the jobs assigned to me than someone who shows up in a tightly pressed uniform with spit shined shoes..."

You don't REALLY believe that do you? If so, there's no point in continuing this part of the discussion. Frankly, you don’t build much of a case for your opinion mattering anyway – 7+ years in  AND a former cadet and you have managed to rise to the exalted grade of 2Lt, with a position as DCP assistant?  Watch out for this fast mover!

“Creating a gap between the "We are a military organization"  and "we are a corporation" isn't going to help us with our problems.” (Corrected).

I’m not creating it – in fact I disdain it – there is no distinction, however some members want there to be, and use it as an excuse.

“I was at the Topoff 3 mission and got reamed for calling a CAP Major by his first name.”
(corrected)
Good – it says 2Lt by your name.  You may address me as “Capt. Williams” or “Sir”. I frankly don’t care what you call your sister, but if she has earned a higher grade and you are in public, “Ma’am” will do in a pinch.

[arajca]

   The position my Sq wants me to take is basically in charge of operations for our sq. Figuring out training schedules and fun, exciting things for the cadets to do and stuff like that. The senior member that had this position before me was a 1LT - so logic would tell me that I should go into the officer corps. But the thing is that I don't WANT to be an officer. I'm an NCO - Trainer of Soldiers and Maker of Men. I'm the type of person that wants to be down in the dirt right along side of my men, not behind a desk blindly making policies and plans. Secondly, I find it almost offensive for me to be an officer. I haven't earned that right so it would seem fake to me. So which rank should I go with? Should I stay in the NCO Corps or should I become a 2LT? What are the differences in the CAP?

The differences between officers and NCO's in CAP is NCO's cannot promote unless you get promoted in the military and different grade insignia.

   In addition to my responsibilities at my sq, I'd like to get involved in Wing activities. BCOC, EPS, and all that fun stuff. Will my status as an NCO prevent me from getting involved? Will it affect what I will be able to do?

No. It may effect you if you want to follow the professional development program and do not have time to go to Region or National Staff College
   

[Another thing of concern is the issue of respect. Will the cadets respect me any less as an NCO vs an officer? I know the cadets in my sq greatly respect me because...well... I'm me and they know me. But will the cadets at a wing events respect me the same? I feel as though the CAP puts so much on being an officer that they ignore the NCO corps. It feels like it's looked down upon, being an NCO. I myself respect a grizzly old E-7 MUCH more than I will ever respect a 2LT, but I don't get that same feeling in the CAP.

Since the only NCO's in CAP are current of former military members, and most cadets know that, you'll have a certain amount of notoriety because of it. Whether that translates into respect or not depends on how you carry yourself. Coming from another service, you need to keep in mind that CAP follows Air Force customs, not Army, Navy, or Marine. It will cost you respect to put forth the Army way over the Air Force way of doing things. BTST. The reason being an NCO may feel like being looked down at is because you are making an exception of yourself for no appearent (to most CAP members) reason.
   

As you can imagine, I have many more questions about CAP, which I will continue to ask in this forum. Thank you for your time and I greatly anticipate your responses.

Ask away. That's what these forums are for.

[dankaten]

The "I'm a Commander, and don't have time for my own development." Is a great way to find yourself out of a job when your term limit is over with nothing to show for your time but a certificate of appreciation.

As background, I am a unit CC, serve on Group staff, run an encampment, and am active enough in ES to have served in Katrina (HEY, I ROCK! >blech<).  As a leader, I can't take a "do as I say, not as I do attitude".  If professional development and progression is important for my members, it's important for me.  My laurels get no rest.

I am curious, when does that term limit happen. According to every regulation I have read and the people I have talked to there isn't a limit so please enlighten the rest of us. I am also sure that if I were to step down the people in my squadron would find someting else for me to do if I didn't do it on my own. So enlighten me in what job I would find my myself out of?

I to serve as a Squadron Commander and have not found time to work on my own development. I have not participated in an encampment. I did however volunteer to work at Katrina and I do not ROCK, I simply serve.
You might cut those who don't have all the free time, that you have, a little slack. It really doesn't make any difference what you do in CAP as long as you do it well. "Doing it well" includes wearing the uniform properly.
It is amazing to me that we are able to teach our Cadets anything with the things I have read on the posts concerning this topic. Especially when I have read the things that former Cadets have written. I am also astounded when I see fellow Officers preaching the stuff that is written here.
This whole post started with a young man asking a simple question about whether or not to keep his NCO rank or to accept an Officers ran in the CAP. I believe the answer to that question is simple, it is something that you will have to decide for yourself after looking at the regulations that the CAP has to offer. The Cadets will hopefully respect you as a person and not care too much about your "RANK".  If we as adults are teaching our Cadets that they should show respect based on "RANK" then I think we had all better get the hell out of the CAP.
Some of you are correct, getting 2LT doesn't take a lot to get and it isn't all that hard to get Captain. I was an officer in the Military and for that I was given a 1LT rank in the CAP. I have now been a Squadron Commander for over a year so they "GAVE" me Captain at my request. Did I earn the rank of Captain, you bet I did because I didn't have time to work on my own progression because I was doing what a Commander is suppose to do which is to lead and direct my Squadron. CAP does not have a command track which is neither here nor there but it does slow up the progression of a person in command if they are really taking their position to heart. I may be a Captain for a long time since I will not be stepping down from my command until such time as my squadron feels I need to. When I took command almost two years ago I did it at the request of a fellow military officer. The day I took command I told the entire squadron that I expected them to respect the position that I had taken even though I have Lt. Col. working for me. In that same speech I told them that I hoped in time that I would earn their respect as a person.
Any any military organization there will be people who wear rank who do not deserve the respect of others but you show respect for the rank, not the person. We should all strive to earn the respect that goes along with the rank.
As for military people wearing their military uniform during CAP activities, you are wrong. You can wear a military uniform while participating in a military activity. CAP is not a military activity. Yes you can get orders cut that allow you to wear the uniform since you are a recruiter because you are supporting the CAP but is that really what you are doing. It sounds more like someone wants to stand out so the cadets will oooohhh and awww about this different uniform. I recently had an 20 year old senior member who kept showing up in an ROTC uniform. He would sometimes show up on BDU night in class A's and do stuff like wear white gloves. It definitely set him apart from the rest and the Cadets would always run up to him and ask him questions about what the different ribbons were all about. He sure loved it. Come to find out he wasn't in the ROTC. Probably had never been and probably never will be. He just needs to get over himself because he is a very nice young man who can be a lot of help when he tries. As the man said "that is what uniform is all about". If you just have to stand out continue to wear the military uniform but you should wear only the dress uniform.
I personally think the biggest problem that CAP has is all of the people who join that are in it for what they can get out of it. CAP isn't about what will I look like, or what uniform will I get to wear, or how high in the rank structure can I go, or what do I need to do to make myself look good, it is a volunteer organization that helps to support civilization. Yes we are the Air Force Auxiliary so we should at least make an attempt to follow a little protocol but lets not let the protocol interfere with the mission.

[JaL5597]

And my friend JaL5597, beating up the misinformed is so unfair, but you leave yourself open to it with the statements you make.

"That's why all our aircraft have civil registration and all of our vehicles are registered in the states.

You may call us the Air Force Auxiliary all you want.  But we are the Civil Air Patrol.  Which is Federally Chartered as the Auxiliary of the Air Force." (corrected)

Yes it is, and thank you for that bold restatement of the obvious.  The duality of our nature is a matter of the practicalities of insurance coverage, funding, and tax breaks for our members.
We are still basically a line-item of the USAF.  They pay for the planes, the radios, and the gas (among other things) – pull that and see what you have.

"And I will remember that when I show up in my civvies unshaven to my squadron.  Doesn't mean I am any less capable of doing any of the jobs assigned to me than someone who shows up in a tightly pressed uniform with spit shined shoes..."

You don't REALLY believe that do you? If so, there's no point in continuing this part of the discussion. Frankly, you don't build much of a case for your opinion mattering anyway – 7+ years in  AND a former cadet and you have managed to rise to the exalted grade of 2Lt, with a position as DCP assistant?  Watch out for this fast mover!

"Creating a gap between the "We are a military organization"  and "we are a corporation" isn't going to help us with our problems." (Corrected).

I'm not creating it – in fact I disdain it – there is no distinction, however some members want there to be, and use it as an excuse.

"I was at the Topoff 3 mission and got reamed for calling a CAP Major by his first name."
(corrected)
Good – it says 2Lt by your name.  You may address me as "Capt. Williams" or "Sir". I frankly don't care what you call your sister, but if she has earned a higher grade and you are in public, "Ma'am" will do in a pinch.

Well there SIR  I do thank you for that little tirade.  Of course the whole praise in public correct in private means nothing.

Your right.  Eight years as a senior member and only being a butter bar seems weird.  But then I also have been in the Flight Officer grades and am going to college.  Oh yeah, there is also the little fact of having been improperly promoted to 1st Lt and letting that sit untill there was a review of the records and having had that get yanked. 

[Eclipse]

Captain Katen,

I started reading this and thought I would disagree, and by the end found myself pounding the floor with my cue in agreement.

To the term limits, I can tell you the GLR Region CC issued a memorandum about 4 years ago (I held a copy in my hand, so I know it isn't heresay), that directed Commander term limits be 4 years, no more than 6.  He reset the clocks on the sitting CC's and in IL, at least, has stuck to this from the Wing CC all the way down.  I had assumed this was a NHQ directive, but maybe not - a search of the KB doesn't show anything about it - I'll point a question at them and see.

As to that pretender to the ROTC - ROTFLMAO!  Hilarious!

You should try ROCKing!  It's awesome!

[arajca]

I personally think the biggest problem that CAP has is all of the people who join that are in it for what they can get out of it. CAP isn't about what will I look like, or what uniform will I get to wear, or how high in the rank structure can I go, or what do I need to do to make myself look good, it is a volunteer organization that helps to support civilization. Yes we are the Air Force Auxiliary so we should at least make an attempt to follow a little protocol but lets not let the protocol interfere with the mission.

Unless someone can get something out of an activity or organization, they won't participate. That something may be a piece of cloth (or several pieces) on their chest. It may be silver oak leafs on their shoulder. It may be a scholarship or extra points when applying to a military academy. It may be a warm feeling that you've helped someone. Everyone's motivation differs as does their activity level.

[dankaten]

 Unless someone can get something out of an activity or organization, they won't participate. That something may be a piece of cloth (or several pieces) on their chest. It may be silver oak leafs on their shoulder. It may be a scholarship or extra points when applying to a military academy. It may be a warm feeling that you've helped someone. Everyone's motivation differs as does their activity level.
[/quote]

That may be, but then I have to ask, what do you get out of going to church? What is wrong with getting a feeling that you might be helping out the community or your nation? If you must be in it for what you can get out of it, how about a few pieces of silver?
It is not my belief that you should not get anything out of CAP. I submit requests for awards for my seniors and cadets quite often. It isn't so they can get something out of it as much as a show of how much we appreciate them. That is the difference between being in it to help and being in it for what you can get out of it. If they were in it for the awards and the decorations then I feel sorry for them.

[dankaten]

Captain Katen,

I started reading this and thought I would disagree, and by the end found myself pounding the floor with my cue in agreement.

To the term limits, I can tell you the GLR Region CC issued a memorandum about 4 years ago (I held a copy in my hand, so I know it isn't heresay), that directed Commander term limits be 4 years, no more than 6.  He reset the clocks on the sitting CC's and in IL, at least, has stuck to this from the Wing CC all the way down.  I had assumed this was a NHQ directive, but maybe not - a search of the KB doesn't show anything about it - I'll point a question at them and see.

As to that pretender to the ROTC - ROTFLMAO!  Hilarious!

You should try ROCKing!  It's awesome!

Well thank you very much but I am not really sure what "ROCK" stands for. I just have a tendency to go off the deep end when I hear someone trying to put themselves above the rest just because of who they are or the position they hold.
As far as I know SWRegion does not have any limits on Command. I have a fellow Commander who has been in that position for over 5 years. It isn't that I would not give the position up. I ask people all the time if they would like the position and they keep turning me down. Some say it is because "SUCKER" is stenciled on my forehead. I consider it a priviledge and an honor to serve as commander of my squadron. Some day they will get sick of me and ask me to stand down, or I will have something that comes up that will not enable me to continue, but until then I just do the best I can and I won't sit around waiting on the ribbons to determine if I will do it. It is recommended that if you take the position of Commander that you keep it for at least 2 years so that you don't have a bunch of turnover in the squadron ( not good for morale).

[Eclipse]

Knowledge base responded - term limits, at least in this case, are a regional policy, so
YMMV with regards to how long you can serve as a CC.

In GLR, anyway, it is 4 years no more than 6.

[Cmdbuddy]

Ah, yes - one of my favorites - "Grade means nothing..." and "Capt is easy", from someone w/ 7 years in and still wearing a single bar.  Wait, let me guess, you've been too busy doing "real" CAP work to take ECI 13 and do some staff work for the tech rating. 

whatevah.

I know this is from several pages back, but I was just reading this thread for the first time and was a bit disgusted by this comment.

First off, you know nothing about Lt Horn, nor anybody else on this board.  For all you knew at the time, he could have just turned 21 with 7 years in the Cadet Program and achieved his Eaker award.  That's definitely nothing to scoff at. 

And even if that wasn't the case- even if he has been a SM for 7 years and was only a 1st Lt, that's not for you to make a judgement call on, either.  My dad's been in for a very long time (longer than cadets have been alive, IIRC), and just recently made Major.  Does that make him a bad SM?  I don't think so.  Let's not negate the fact that he owns his own business, has raised a family, and receives Outstandings on most, if not all, inspections and SAREVAL's in his area. 

I know this was a few weeks ago, but I really don't believe you adequately apologized for this comment.  I found it quite offensive, and I'm not even a Senior Member.  So, maybe you should learn a little more about people before passing huge judgements like that,  sir.

[Eclipse]

First, I suspect that if Lt. Horn took actual offense, he'd flame me himself.
He looks like he is very capable of defending himself if necessary.

Second, its disingenuous to include somehow accuse me of insulting your father
when he's not even privy to this discussion.

The offense >I< took to the statement was that someone who hadn't achieved the grade himself was saying Capt was "easy".  If a Capt, Major, or Lt. Col. who came up through the ranks legit wants to make that discussion, fine, but at least attain the grade before you start claiming it's so "easy".

And I'll restate my assertion that the excuse that I was "too busy with real work to develop my own CAP career is BS".

If you look at the program as a whole, it is designed to build leaders from within.
You're >supposed< to go to an SLS & UCC >before< you command a unit, CLC >before< you move higher than that.  Tech ratings and professional development aren't just for those haven't been "lucky" enough to be standing in the right place when CC jobs are handed out.

How can you guide the CAP career of other members if you aren't doing the work yourself?

None of this is rocket science, but we all know plenty of both cadets and seniors who stopped progressing because they were too busy doing "real work".

You know when this becomes the biggest problem?  During the back half of your CAP career. A lot of the s-hot pilots I know figure they can get by without anything but bare-minimum pilot related work, and then one day they can't get a medical anymore, and their peers are all branch directors or staffers who worked the program and rose to authority, and they are left standing on the sidelines, no longer able to participate.

And that's when the real problems start - 60-year old Capt's w/ 20 years in and no ES qual's or professional development who sit around telling everyone how much they know.

No, I don't think I owe anyone an apology for my opinion anymore than Lt. Horn did for his.

[DeputyDog]

You can take all the professional development courses and complete the entire SM program up to Level V, but you'll stay at the same grade in CAP: whatever NCO grade you hold or held last in the military.  You will not be able to promote in CAP.

The only thing I see the NCO thing holding you back from are certain activities that specify a certain SM officer grade to attend, such as National Staff College which requires the grade of Major to attend (a requirement which even the National Commander can't waive for a SM, according to the regs).

There are actually a few other things that will hold back a Senior Member NCO. They will not get past Level III, let alone even consider going to NSC. In order to complete Level IV, you either take SOS or RSC. A Senior Member NCO can do neither, as you have to be a Captain to take SOS, or you have to be a First Lieutenant (provided you get the waiver) to take RSC. This is assuming that the Senior Member NCO had not done the CAPR 50-17 Attachment 2 equivalents while in service.

I know this topic is a bit dated, I have been lurking awhile and felt it was time to post!

[Eclipse]

If they're in BDUs, I'm in ACUs.

Then you're out of uniform, plain and simple, and likely in violation of CAP regs.

We have >affinity< with the military, but no direct conection.

[ZigZag911]

How can you guide the CAP career of other members if you aren't doing the work yourself?

None of this is rocket science, but we all know plenty of both cadets and seniors who stopped progressing because they were too busy doing "real work".

You know when this becomes the biggest problem?  During the back half of your CAP career. A lot of the s-hot pilots I know figure they can get by without anything but bare-minimum pilot related work, and then one day they can't get a medical anymore, and their peers are all branch directors or staffers who worked the program and rose to authority, and they are left standing on the sidelines, no longer able to participate.

And that's when the real problems start - 60-year old Capt's w/ 20 years in and no ES qual's or professional development who sit around telling everyone how much they know.

Actually, another solution has been devised in the recent past to address this situation: getting appointment as a wing (or even region!) commander without ANY prior command experience, CAP or military.

Not a solution I personally support, because you put it so well when you asked how an officer could guide others in an area where he (or she!) lacked experience.

[ncc1912]

This next comment may offend some people, or it may not. We'll see. The CAP is not a recruiting tool for the USAF. It is not a recruiting tool for anything. But we've all admitted that a lot of cadets will go off and join a service when they graduate high school. What is the harm in letting them know that there are other things out there? That's basically doing by wearing the ACUs. I know you're all saying "Wait... this guy's a RECRUITER and he's in CAP! GET HIM OUT HE'S ONLY THERE TO GET MORE CANNON FODDER!" I will assure you that is not the case. I'll admit that was my initial interest in CAP - but that is the last thing on my mind. I love interacting with the kids - watching them learn and grow as airmen and as young adults. We've got some kids that are in our sq who just need a good rolemodel in their lives - I fill that void. I'm making a difference in these kids lives and that makes me feel good. That's my interest in CAP. If a kid asks about military service - I'll answer him honestly and to the best of my abilities. But I could care less if any CAP kids join or not. If they are going to join I want them to know that there is more out there... (waiting patiently for the backlash....)

...No backlash here.

First off, I'll say that I'm not in the Guard.  I am active duty (enlisted) Air Force.  I am also a former cadet.  Short of going into my CAP biography, I will state that should suffice for this forum.

Also, like you, I don't see CAP as a vessel for USAF recruitment.  Besides, we have a large amount of cadets that go on to join the Marine Corps and not the Air Force. 

If you have happend to read some of my other postings, I agree with some of your observations of CAP's rank "system" and commend your search for definitive clarification.  If anything, I hope you got the information you needed from all the previous postings.  If not, as a (master) personnel officer and a (technician) professional development officer, I'll try to answer any more questions you may have.

Some have argued that there is a conflict of interest in the idea of an Armed Forces recruiter wearing his/her service's uniform as an added "option" to the CAP uniform as a CAP member.  I disagree, but you must keep in mind, at least as far as the Reserves (it don't know about Guard) are concerned, if they are assigned to support CAP and/or CAP-USAF they can't be CAP members, as well, and therefore cannot were the CAP uniform anyway.  If it is OK'ed for you to do it buy whomever needs to OK it IAW with CAP Regulations and your Guard directives, then... 'to each their own,' I say.  Go for it.

In the AD Air Force, if I were to go to an encampment I could get a Permissive TDY (temporary duty); basically, free leave.  These are not orders, but going to the encampment on this premise, I am going as a Air Force member and provided I don't have a position in the encampment chain-of-command or staff that would warrent a position of an officer, it would be perfectly acceptable on both parts (AF and CAP) to wear my AF uniform.  Basically, what I am saying is that I have made it an option for myself.

That being said, I offer you this counter-proposal: 

It is obvious that you enjoy your job as a recruiter and you value your service to CAP and its cadets.  Why not combine these and become a CAP recruiter (after you earn your other technician rating, of course)?

In addition to attracting members to CAP and its programs, some of the duties of a CAP recruiting and retention officer are exactly that; being knowledgeable and providing career options to our cadets.  It would mean that you would have to do some research on the other branches of the military, civilian jobs and colleges, including knowing who has what jobs and being familiar with quality of life issues, but you would be able to satisfy both of your needs.  In this aspect, you would become a career counselor.

I too enjoy my job for the Air Force, but have a lot more vested time in CAP than you, as a new member.  That's why, given the choice, I would choose the CAP uniform.  If I am wearing my CAP service dress blues, it's usually obvious at a glance that I am military or, at least, prior-military.  Again, it's a personal preference.

Explore your options.  Consider the alternatives.

Speaking as a CAP recruiter and one who likes to see others take on this challenging specialty; if you were to choose this specialty track, I would like to hear that you did it wearing the CAP uniform (NCO or Officer) to attract people to our organization.  I can't help but think it may be able to help you, indirectly, as a Guard recruiter, as well. 

I welcome any comment you or anyone else may have.

[afgeo4]

I apologize if this was covered before, but... from what I recollect, you have to be E-7 or above to join as CAP NCO.  The only grade options on the application are MSgt, SMSgt, and CMSgt.  I, in my own time a former NCO (E-5) was told that one had to be a SNCO to join as enlisted.  Is that all wrong? 

[Pylon]

Is that all wrong? 

Yes.

You have to be an NCO according to your branch.  Read CAPR 35-5, CAP Officer and Noncommissioned Officer Appointments and Promotions for more information on this.  You can be as low as an E-4, if your branch has E-4 NCOs; accordingly CAP NCO grades go as low as Sgt.

[Psicorp]

Is that all wrong? 

Yes.

You have to be an NCO according to your branch.  Read CAPR 35-5, CAP Officer and Noncommissioned Officer Appointments and Promotions for more information on this.  You can be as low as an E-4, if your branch has E-4 NCOs; accordingly CAP NCO grades go as low as Sgt.

I can't resist stating the obvious here...but since we follow the Air Force grade structure, the lowest grade a non-commissioned member can hold is Staff Sargent (four stripes)...because that is the lowest NCO grade there is.  Three stripes is a Senior Airman, which is not an NCO.

[Pylon]

Yes.

You have to be an NCO according to your branch.  Read CAPR 35-5, CAP Officer and Noncommissioned Officer Appointments and Promotions for more information on this.  You can be as low as an E-4, if your branch has E-4 NCOs; accordingly CAP NCO grades go as low as Sgt.

I can't resist stating the obvious here...but since we follow the Air Force grade structure, the lowest grade a non-commissioned member can hold is Staff Sargent (four stripes)...because that is the lowest NCO grade there is.  Three stripes is a Senior Airman, which is not an NCO.

CAP Grades and CAP NCOs are not the same as USAF NCOs.

At first, you would think this would be obvious.  But consider that the Air Force isn't the only branch that has NCOs.  In some branches, as an E-4, you could be an NCO.  In addition, an individual could be a retired Sgt. from the USAF, from before the USAF eliminated E-4 NCOs.

CAP allows all NCOs from the US Armed Forces, current, former, or retired, to hold CAP NCO grade. To provide for the E-4 NCOs, either from former USAF service or from other branches, the "three stripe" grade insignia in CAP is "Sergeant" and is an NCO.

Again, check out CAPR 35-5 and the NCO chevrons in CAPM 39-1.

Hope that answers your question.

[Psicorp]

Okay, I stand corrected on this one.  It is E-4 and above, for some reason I thought that CAP had followed suit with the Air Force in calling E-4 Senior Airman.

On another note, though.  My squadron is fortunate to have a Senior Member who is prior enlisted military (E-5).   My squadron CC understood the regs to that state that he is the promoting authority for NCOs to mean that he can promote an E-4 to E-5.   The regs state that NCO grades are not recorded at National.  The problem with this is (in my mind) that the NCO insignia worn are actual USAF insignia and can only be worn by someone who has earned that grade in military service.

I've been batting around the idea of a CAP specific NCO structure to include promotionable NCOs, following the Level system of Officers.  This way the NCO rank progression would follow the same Level progression as the Officers (E-4 through E-9 being the same number of grades as 2LT through Col.)  With CMSGT being equal in "status" as full Col.

An idea for a CAP distinct NCO insignia would be something like: changing the field behind/around the stripes to the CAP blue color and replacing the star with a white triangle and red prop.  (I'd attach the picture of the one I've made up, but don't know how).

Just an idea (my appologies to those who are cringing at yet ANOTHER uniform change idea, but I do think that a lack of a promotional NCO structure is what's keeping people who'd rather be NCOs from joining/participating).

[arajca]

I don't know if you've heard of it, but on Civil Air Portal there is a discussion about just such a thing.

[ZigZag911]

I've been batting around the idea of a CAP specific NCO structure to include promotionable NCOs, following the Level system of Officers.  This way the NCO rank progression would follow the same Level progression as the Officers (E-4 through E-9 being the same number of grades as 2LT through Col.)  With CMSGT being equal in "status" as full Col.

Just an idea (my appologies to those who are cringing at yet ANOTHER uniform change idea, but I do think that a lack of a promotional NCO structure is what's keeping people who'd rather be NCOs from joining/participating).

This has come up many times before, but is still an idea worth pursuing....perhaps if it's run up enough flag poles, someone will finally salute it!

[gallagheria]

So why doesn't the CAP follow standard military protocol for commissions? If they have a college degree and maybe completed some sort of training course, then make them officers; otherwise make them enlisted.

I am looking into the CAP and find this interesting.

[Pylon]

So why doesn't the CAP follow standard military protocol for commissions? If they have a college degree and maybe completed some sort of training course, then make them officers; otherwise make them enlisted.

I am looking into the CAP and find this interesting.

There are already a number of discussions on the merits and demerits of such proposals.  Use the search function to find a handful of them.

[coshell]

As I read through these posts (and I got bored after a while) I notice that most, if not all, of the members who say that promotion to Capt is "easy" are past cadets, with years of CAP time.  For those of us who join as a SM, it's not so easy.

I, personally, have a much harder time with the ECI-13 than with the "real stuff".  For someone who has spent a lot of time with in the cadet program, it will be easy.  The ECI-13 course is basically the entire cadet program (tests included) packaged up into one course.

Fortunately, I had good advisers, and have been studying the study guide whenever I get a chance (even though I have another year and a half TIG before I'm eligible for promotion).

Yes, I think rank is important, because when I meet a CAP member, the rank on their shoulders is a quick guide for me to know what they can do, or have done.  In the field especially, this is helpful when I don't have time to interview a GTM for my team.  An NCO could have a month of CAP experience, or 10 years, I don't know.  But if a Major is on my team, I have a pretty good idea of what he/she is able to do.

[DNall]

As I read through these posts (and I got bored after a while) I notice that most, if not all, of the members who say that promotion to Capt is "easy" are past cadets, with years of CAP time.  For those of us who join as a SM, it's not so easy.

I, personally, have a much harder time with the ECI-13 than with the "real stuff".  For someone who has spent a lot of time with in the cadet program, it will be easy.  The ECI-13 course is basically the entire cadet program (tests included) packaged up into one course.

Fortunately, I had good advisers, and have been studying the study guide whenever I get a chance (even though I have another year and a half TIG before I'm eligible for promotion).

Yes, I think rank is important, because when I meet a CAP member, the rank on their shoulders is a quick guide for me to know what they can do, or have done.  In the field especially, this is helpful when I don't have time to interview a GTM for my team.  An NCO could have a month of CAP experience, or 10 years, I don't know.  But if a Major is on my team, I have a pretty good idea of what he/she is able to do.

I joined as a SM, and it is extremely easy to make Capt, all you have to do is hang out. AFIADL13 is a joke. Maybe you hadn't been in school for a while, but it's very few professions in the world that don't require reading & study to maintain skill. We can't have idiot officers. Instead we have courses that in theory weed out the morons. Deal with it, and realize real officers do that much in well under a week - you can do it in a year.

[ddelaney103]

Well, both of you are right.

ECI-13 is not a very difficult course, but it is a major roadblock to Capt.  It is the first check block that requires something beyond "warming a seat."

For people who have a college degree, ECI-13 is fairly easy: if you answer the end of chapter questions and take the "test exam" without problems, you should have no problem.

If you haven't had exposure to higher education, the course can be tougher.  Also, there's little reward to passing.  ALS, NCOA and SNCOA all were gateways to better jobs at higher pay.  Being a CAP Capt gets you nothing but some bragging rights.  Unless you want to be on the NB, you don't need ECI-13.

[ddelaney103]

As I read through these posts (and I got bored after a while) I notice that most, if not all, of the members who say that promotion to Capt is "easy" are past cadets, with years of CAP time.  For those of us who join as a SM, it's not so easy.

I, personally, have a much harder time with the ECI-13 than with the "real stuff".  For someone who has spent a lot of time with in the cadet program, it will be easy.  The ECI-13 course is basically the entire cadet program (tests included) packaged up into one course.

Fortunately, I had good advisers, and have been studying the study guide whenever I get a chance (even though I have another year and a half TIG before I'm eligible for promotion).

Yes, I think rank is important, because when I meet a CAP member, the rank on their shoulders is a quick guide for me to know what they can do, or have done.  In the field especially, this is helpful when I don't have time to interview a GTM for my team.  An NCO could have a month of CAP experience, or 10 years, I don't know.  But if a Major is on my team, I have a pretty good idea of what he/she is able to do.

I joined as a SM, and it is extremely easy to make Capt, all you have to do is hang out. AFIADL13 is a joke. Maybe you hadn't been in school for a while, but it's very few professions in the world that don't require reading & study to maintain skill. We can't have idiot officers. Instead we have courses that in theory weed out the morons. Deal with it, and realize real officers do that much in well under a week - you can do it in a year.

Trust me, if the purpose of CAP PD is to "weed out the morons," it's not working.  I've been to a few NB's and it would appear Wilson Awards don't even weed them out.

[DNall]

I would tend to think the same thing. The content presented is necessary to be an even remotely functional member, much less officer. However, they do at least have the material rather than no requirements to advance.

[coshell]

For people who have a college degree, ECI-13 is fairly easy

Thank you.  Actually, I do have a college degree from the University of Denver.  Maybe the test is easy.  But as the TCO of my squadron, even though I havn't taken it yet, it still makes me nervous when I administer it to other people who have Bachelors, Masters, and Doctorates and they sweat through it.

AFIADL13 is a joke.

Perhaps it wasn't administered correctly when you took it DNall.

[FARRIER]

For people who have a college degree, ECI-13 is fairly easy

Thank you.  Actually, I do have a college degree from the University of Denver.  Maybe the test is easy.  But as the TCO of my squadron, even though I havn't taken it yet, it still makes me nervous when I administer it to other people who have Bachelors, Masters, and Doctorates and they sweat through it.

AFIADL13 is a joke.

Perhaps it wasn't administered correctly when you took it DNall.

:clap:

[IceNine]

just a little input, again let me restate that if you dont want to be an officer DON'T...in my years I have seen everything from E-3's up to E-9's all of them were awesome and it's nice to fall back on that active/reserve experience which is something we don't get in CAP.  You won't be held back as mentioned before on the Prof. Dev. Stuff but you will be on promotions. Achieving the Wilson award is possible,  It has been done before (nesa attendee's know him well).  He however chose to transfer to CAP Officer Rank because he got tired of the "political" aspect that is bound to rear is ugly head in a volunteer organization based soley on training opportunities that we CHOOSE, to endure based on our WANT to succeed in this organization.  There is the flip side of the coin.  If you never want to move outside of level 1 don't there are tons of people that are here for the "kids" and don't care what happens with their grade.  So the bottom line is do what feels right...  In time all lines can be blurred, it just might take a little more doing.

[DNall]

AFIADL13 is a joke.

Perhaps it wasn't administered correctly when you took it DNall.

What? Is there something in the reg about juggling flaming chainsaws over my head that my old Sq CC missed? It's a silly little test over material a lot easier than what we require of cadets. Maybe people have been out of school a long time & have some test anxiety, I don't know, but there is no challenge whatever in that course, and no one I've ever seen with half a dozen brain cells has had trouble with the material or the test. It's tedious to be sure, but it's not hard. The content does need a bit of an update, but honestly if you aren't able to do it I have serious doubt as to your usefulness as a member.

[RogueLeader]

If members are having a hard time with the test, because of test anxiety, help them deal with it. The anxiety- not the test   Give test taking skills sessions if needed.

[coshell]

AFIADL13 is a joke.

Perhaps it wasn't administered correctly when you took it DNall.

What? Is there something in the reg about juggling flaming chainsaws over my head that my old Sq CC missed? It's a silly little test over material a lot easier than what we require of cadets. Maybe people have been out of school a long time & have some test anxiety, I don't know, but there is no challenge whatever in that course, and no one I've ever seen with half a dozen brain cells has had trouble with the material or the test. It's tedious to be sure, but it's not hard. The content does need a bit of an update, but honestly if you aren't able to do it I have serious doubt as to your usefulness as a member.

I am going to take that with as much salt as I can muster.  First off, why was your CC administering the test?  That should only happen when no TCO has been appointed, and I have yet to find a squadron without one.  Perhaps your crass attitude scared everyone else in your squadron away.  Oh yeah, your "old Sq CC"?  Did he/she leave too?

Secondly, I resent your implications that the fine ladies and gentlemen of CAP in general, and of my squadron specifically, have less than six brain cells.

I'm not saying that the ECI-13 is rocket science.  But neither is the USAFA.  Maybe I won't have trouble taking the test.  But that doesn't mean that I should view it as a walk in the park, even if I still pass.  When I take that test, I'm going to know that material inside and out.  And if it isn't important, why is it there?  I do my job to the best of my abilities, even if it's over-kill.  If I can't pass the test, well, I'll just stay an LT and make sure that I live up to the reputation "Outstanding Service" and "Wing Ground Team Member of the Year" awards.

Oh, and do you think having duty positions in three squadrons is enough, or should I just quit and let smart persons like yourself do it right.  While i'm at it, ill throw my Oustanding Service award that i done got from college out the window and jist maybe ill witdraw my aplication to the mensa club they dont nede stupid peeple lik me in there midst

[DNall]

Easy there buddy. I took that test over 10 years ago. My Sq CC from that time is the current Wg COS, the TCO was his wife & handed me the test then sat across from me while I took it, the CC at the head of the table to my right & others off doing their staff duties in & out of the room. I can't imagine a circumstance under which a test would be compromised w/o outright intentional cheating, and I can promise you that has never & will never occur anywhere near me. And I by the way didn't even have even an associates degree at that point.

The course content & test ARE a walk in the park, and the ability to easily accomplish it is a requirement to progress in CAP. I promise you SOS & ACSC are much harder. If your people are having problems with it there's either something wrong with them or they, like oyu seem to be, are being led to think it is difficult when it is absolutely not. The material in that course is LITERALLY MUCH easier than the tests we ask cadet officers to take. It's a LOT easier than taking Yeager closed book.

I don't care about your awards. I never even heard of an outstanding service or GTM of the year award. I'm glad you work hard in CAP, that's good, but dedication isn't enough. As you move up you have to be increasingly well educated on how to be a better officer. You've been in CAP what 2-3 years? Obviously you have to improve yourself & the standards have to get increasingly harder for you to be capable of the job at the next level. I view AFIADL 13 as a joke cause it's 1/3rd of what you have to do before you show up to real OTS to start training to be a 2Lt, it's what you have to know to be functional in that training process, and I found it to be extremely simple as do a lot of people. If you want to tell me it's poorly written & needs an update & less emphasis on the linebacker campaigns, sure I agree with that. Otherwise it's easy, study, test, get over it, life just gets harder from there.

[MIKE]

DNall, strongly suggest you stop now.

[DNall]

Sure, came in just trying to state it isn't hard or that big a deal & calm the nerves, but somehow ended in a pissing match. Moving on...

[SarDragon]

OOH, harsh.

Dennis, I think you need to remember that not all things are easy to all people. We all have our strong and weak areas. Maybe one of your strengths is test taking. I know it's one of mine. Others aren't so fortunate, but they may excel in areas that seem foreign to us.

I think both of you, Dennis and Chris, need to take a bit of advice from Sgt Hulka, and "Lighten up, Francis!"

[DNall]

Oh I can promise you test-tking is not one of my particular stong suits, and like the other gentleman, I tend to take the material too seriously & get all worried in advance of the test. You see the same thing with cadets that are scared of testing cause they don't want to fail, as if that was their only chance. I've learned over time to lighten up in that regard. This particular test & course weren't that hard when I took them. I found the material somewhat interesting, read it all thru fairly quick & tested pretty soon thereafter. I think I did the multi-color highlighter thing recommended in the book, & it all came out pretty well as I recall. I did pretty well as I recall, not that I cared beyond passing, but really it's not that big a deal... and I would go so far as saying part of the reason it is there is as an inhibitor to progression by real actual idiots, not people with test anxiety or limited time, but real morons that we'd like to send on their way or at least hold back from progressing. I'm sure that is not the case with this young Lt or any of his people, and he should be too, which should result in understanding it ain't that hard so don't take it so seriously. That's what I meant to say in the first place... sorry if it came out insulting.

[coshell]

Time in CAP:  1.5 years.  Yeah, just watched a lawyer struggle through it...

[pixelwonk]

I think both of you, Dennis and Chris, need to take a bit of advice from Sgt Hulka, and "Lighten up, Francis!"

Dave, you seriously need to pick a new quote.

[SarDragon]

I think both of you, Dennis and Chris, need to take a bit of advice from Sgt Hulka, and "Lighten up, Francis!"

Dave, you seriously need to pick a new quote.

WHY? I like it. It conveys the message quite well. Be happy that I don't usually use the animated smiley, too.

Maybe I should animate one of your full size portal peeple as Sgt Hulka.

[SAR-EMT1]

Stripes was the first "war" movie I ever saw... bless it. 
ME thinks CAP needs to develop its own Urban Assault Vehicle

[Pylon]

ME thinks CAP needs to develop its own Urban Assault Vehicle

That's just asking for trouble.   

[IronRangerMN]

Twolf will no longer be posting. Be safe every one!

[fyrfitrmedic]

hey guys, sry to burst ur buble, but Twolf im sure will no longer be posting, but he is at our squadron, lol, told u we had good people there


Im sure u can stop posting

call me if im wrong (im the first sgt)<<no names

Was that in English? 

[arajca]

Stripes was the first "war" movie I ever saw... bless it. 
ME thinks CAP needs to develop its own Urban Assault Vehicle

I almost bought one - a 1976 GMC motorhome. Unfortunetely, the tranny dynamited climbing a small hill during the test drive and the seller still wanted full price.

[IronRangerMN]

Twolf will no longer be posting.

[arajca]

Yes, it is in English, thank you very much.

Good news too, I spoke with "Twolf" tonight, he had to take a few seconds to remember this thread. He thought it was amazing, to say the least, that this thread was still continueing. His last post was like in what? 2005? He might give you guys "the rest of the story" post now that I reminded him about this. He said he would look at it. You have all been basically talking among yourselves for the past 2 years or what ever....

thats my translation

As for him, he may have burnt out or thought it was just repeat a million times with not much progress, but I dont know.

Im even almost burning out of CAP. I cannot understand how CAP lets itself become the pile of paper work that it is. Or the huge ball of red tape limiting everything.

One word - Lawyers

[IronRangerMN]

I see "Twolf" has not said anything but his account probably expired.

[RogueLeader]

One word - Lawyers

No No No,
It's too MANY Lawyers.

[Smokey]

Hey now...

If it wasn't for lawyers..............

We wouldn't need lawyers.

[RogueLeader]

Hey now...

If it wasn't for lawyers..............

We wouldn't need lawyers.

Did you realize that if marriage was banned, only in-laws would have outlaws?

[brasda91]

I am curious, when does that term limit happen. According to every regulation I have read and the people I have talked to there isn't a limit so please enlighten the rest of us.

Back several years ago, National came up with the idea of limiting the term of office for Squadron Commanders.  I believe there was enough static from the membership that it was dropped and never implemented.

[SarDragon]

I am curious, when does that term limit happen. According to every regulation I have read and the people I have talked to there isn't a limit so please enlighten the rest of us.

Back several years ago, National came up with the idea of limiting the term of office for Squadron Commanders.  I believe there was enough static from the membership that it was dropped and never implemented.

PCR had a supplement in place establishing term limits, but it seems to have lapsed.

[brasda91]

Knowledge base responded - term limits, at least in this case, are a regional policy, so
YMMV with regards to how long you can serve as a CC.

In GLR, anyway, it is 4 years no more than 6.

Just had an e-mail conversation with the GLR Commander.
Below is the entire conversation between himself and myself:

Maj Dillworth,

You are correct, there was talk but I don't believe a policy was set.

Thanks

CHARLES L. CARR, JR., Colonel, CAP
Commander, Great Lakes Region



"Thank you Sir.  Yes, is there a time-limit on the Squadron Commanders term of office, specifically for the GLR?  Back a few years ago there was talk about implementing this policy, I can't remember if it was.

Thank you,

Maj. Dillworth"


"Maj. Dillworth,

Thanks for bring this to my attention.  I will check with the Chief of Staff to see if their are any policy letters
in effect then have IT place them on the web.  In the mean time is there a specific question you need answered"?

CHARLES L. CARR, JR., Colonel, CAP
Commander, Great Lakes Region



"Sir, after reviewing the GLR website, I cannot find a link to any policy letters.  Can you help with this matter?

Wade Dillworth, Maj.
Paducah Composite Squadron, KY011"