Convicted felons

[JoeTomasone]

High Speed, I don't care if a person was 18 or 80, if they were convicted of a felony they are a felon.  How is it that those who abide by our laws should have to compete with those that do not when seeking employment or benefits.  You said the guy made a great officer.  Great, who did he beat out to get the position??

So your position is that felons should be ineligible for jobs?

Hmm... I wonder what they would have to resort to...

[Gunner C]

Perhaps jobs of great public trust aren't for them.

[Spike]

So your position is that felons should be ineligible for jobs?

Hmm... I wonder what they would have to resort to...

Welfare.  We supported them in prison, and most wind up on state and federal aid eventually. 

[raivo]

People do stupid things, it happens. Breaking a law once, early in life, should not be an automatic disqualifier. (Of course there are caveats, such as the nature and severity of the crime, blah blah blah.) Even the regular Air Force will waive certain criminal convictions by potential recruits under certain circumstances.

If it's been awhile (at least a few years, depending on what they did) then I would at least consider them if they could provide evidence of following a pattern of responsible behavior. If a convicted felon can get a security clearance years down the road, then they shouldn't automatically be blacklisted from joining CAP.

[necigrad]

I work with a guy who has a conviction for "statutory sexual seduction".  It resulted from a plea bargain down from statutory rape (the girl lied about her age to him).  He is guilty of a sex crime and is a registered sex offender.  This man should not be in CAP.  I bring this up, however, because of what kind of man he is and how being a criminal relates to trust or responsibility.  This man, 2 decades later is, in my opinion, a good man.  He made a mistake many years ago, served his sentence, and is now a good member of society.  I've known him for close to a decade now, and while he works two full time jobs he's never late and sick no more often then others.  He's a good reliable employee.  CAP is pretty specific that things of this nature are disqualifying for membership; parents trust the senior members with the most important thing in their lives, their children.  CAP has a tremendous responsibility to protect them, and MUST be exceptionally vigilant.

Look at that story above and replace it with something much more benign, maybe tax fraud.  The way the tax code is written it's difficult to determine without fail what deductions are legal, but you want the most refund you are eligible for.  People DO make honest mistakes.  Tax PROFESSIONALS make those same mistakes.  Even the IRS itself has made mistakes.  What if this person hadn't committed a sex crime, but an inadvertent tax crime?  Would he have been a bad member?

CAP has specific disqualifying crimes, these are nondiscriminatory and should be unwaiveable.  Other crimes, however, require at least some consideration.  A prospective member needs to know that s/he needs to be forthcoming about any disqualifies, that they will be found, and it's best if all involved know about them and the potential consequences.  The Commander and Membership Board should have a very frank discussion with the prospective member, and in turn that member should provide anything possible to explain the situation.  They WANT to join CAP, let's give a willing person an honest consideration.  Not all criminals are bad (not that I advocate lawbreaking), nor all law abiding citizens good.  A tax fraud shouldn't handle money, and in my example given the fact that FARs are almost as bad as the tax code, not be a pilot for CAP.  They may be very qualified for other positions however.  Wouldn't it be great to have more teachers in CAP, even if they're an unintentional tax evader?

[cap235629]

In Arkansas you can become a felon if you bounce a check for $250.00 to a grocery store and can't make it good within 10 days.  Felony doesn't always mean dirtbag, it might mean that someone fell on hard times financially and their checkbook runs so tight that 1 bounced check starts a boulder rolling down a hill.  This happens more than you think.  Felon for feeding your kids, go figure..........

[High Speed Low Drag]

High Speed, I don't care if a person was 18 or 80, if they were convicted of a felony they are a felon.  How is it that those who abide by our laws should have to compete with those that do not when seeking employment or benefits.  You said the guy made a great officer.  Great, who did he beat out to get the position??

We all make mistakes, and we all know what is right and wrong.  Some choose to ignore the law, and behave in such a way that is against our laws.  Ignorance of law is not an excuse when it comes to crimes like DWI, drug possession, rape and murder.  We ALL as a society understand those things are wrong.

From what you described the person who made an excellent Soldier served an Army that at the time was desperate for recruits and lowered the standard.  Today, that standard has been lowered and some Soldiers were gang bangers, drug dealers and car thieves.  Honestly.....I don't like that policy. 

Once convicted, unless a court somewhere expunges your record so that you name does not pull up a felony conviction....you are a FELON.  Lets not lower standards because of hopes that a person may one day be a good citizen. 

So for you tax evaders, pot smokers (almost legalized in CALI), child molesters and thieves, don't bother coming to my Squadron.  I will not only blacklist you locally I will research and write up letters to CAP National Headquarters making them aware of you.  They do keep a list, and I have no problem getting you added to that list and flagging your name!   

So, your opinion is that a person that messes up should forever pay for his mistakes?  Sir, I really hope that you are able to make it through your life being perfect.  I thank my God that He does not believe the same as you. 

Everybody messes up.  Were it not for the grace and mercy of others (and second chances), many of us would be in a lot worse place.  I can see if a person has multiple violations, or even one of the serious ones (violent crime) being a poor candidate.  But someone that commits one crime, (and generally those that commit only one are not criminals, but folks that made a bad decision), then who are we to say they so not deserve a second chance?  For the record, I'm not saying that everyone should be allowed in, but that the process that we have now of reviewing the person's actions and history is a good practice.  As a side note, there are many more felonies now then there were 20 years ago (i.e. it is a lot eaier to mess up now than then).

Also think about this; Marting Luther King Jr, Gandhi, and Nelson Mandela (to name a few) were imprisoned for crimes.  If we were to follow the bright line rule that Spike follows, none of them would be allowed in CAP, although a review of their actions would lead reasonable person to allow them in.  I am not saying that the felons applying for memerbship are in the same catagoiry as these noble men, just that a review and decision is the right thing to do - not just adopt a "If you made a mistake, you can't be in rule."

[Gunner C]

Felon for feeding your kids, go figure..........

No, a felon for stealing $250.  In this country, stealing to feed your children is a poor excuse.  As far as a sex offender being given a chance or not, it's a matter of trust versus risk.  We as CAP members are many times put in positions of public trust.  AAMOF, every time we put on the uniform, we become symbols of that trust.  As flawed as things are, the (generally applicable) prohibition on felons in the force is a good policy.

I have personally had two members who were previous felons due to convictions while in military service.  In both cases I made sure that:

• they were not involved with anything of a sexual nature or minors
• the felonies were in no way violent

I had vigorous interviews with them and had them bring in every shred of paperwork they had.  I consulted with my legal officer and chaplain for their opinions as well as the membership committee.  Before I submitted their names with my signature, I made sure that their lives had been exemplary since the crimes and that their motivations were for service and camaraderie.  I also, IIRC, gave a full briefing to the group and wing CCs on the matter.  (One conviction was for using meal card after he had been authorized separate rations - his sentence was 6 months IIRC; I don't recall the other crime, but it was of the same level and he had also drawn a 6 month sentence)

Their applications were submitted with considerable accompanying paperwork and both were accepted.

[DogCollar]

I have personally had two members who were previous felons due to convictions while in military service.  In both cases I made sure that:

• they were not involved with anything of a sexual nature or minors
• the felonies were in no way violent

I had vigorous interviews with them and had them bring in every shred of paperwork they had.  I consulted with my legal officer and chaplain for their opinions as well as the membership committee.  Before I submitted their names with my signature, I made sure that their lives had been exemplary since the crimes and that their motivations were for service and camaraderie.  I also, IIRC, gave a full briefing to the group and wing CCs on the matter.  (One conviction was for using meal card after he had been authorized separate rations - his sentence was 6 months IIRC; I don't recall the other crime, but it was of the same level and he had also drawn a 6 month sentence)

Their applications were submitted with considerable accompanying paperwork and both were accepted.

This seems like a logical process. 

[wuzafuzz]

I agree there are some "accidental felons" out there.  People who grabbed an abalone while scuba diving, or who plow their farm and are busted because some endangered rat MIGHT like to live there, or who find themselves on the wrong side of some obscure or unjust law that almost no one has ever heard of.  For those reasons I think it's reasonable to review applicants with a record instead of rejecting them outright. 

However, the bar must be set pretty high.  We shouldn't give a pass to anything that isn't a violent crime.  Anything that hints at a lack of integrity or that suggests violence or sexual deviance should be kept away at all costs.  Those folks DO pay the price for life (we aren't talking about juvenile history here BTW).  They can participate in life and should be expected to stay out of further trouble, but that doesn't mean giving them a position of trust.

[cap235629]

(One conviction was for using meal card after he had been authorized separate rations - his sentence was 6 months IIRC; I don't recall the other crime, but it was of the same level and he had also drawn a 6 month sentence)

Their applications were submitted with considerable accompanying paperwork and both were accepted.

A 6 month sentence does not rise to the level of a felony under Federal law, more than 1 year imprisonment is the benchmark.  In some states this level is increased to 2 years or more (Massachusetts is 2 1/2 years for instance).

Unless your review was for the status of their discharge (which should have been a bad conduct discharge at the most from what you describe) it doesn't meet the level of an automatic disqualification.  A bad conduct discharge is NOT the same as a dishonorable but does warrant an investigation.

[High Speed Low Drag]

I do agree with wuzafuzz - we should set the bar pretty high.  Definately no sex crimes of any type.  And no violent crimes.  Drug crimes (possesion of controlled substance) need to be examined - for example: Possesion w/ intent should have occurred more than 20 years ago, a simple possesion charge - 10 years ago, possesion of drug paraphanalia (without simultaneous possesion of drugs) - 5 years ago.  But the vast majority of felonies now are non violent / non-drug.  A thorough examination should be conducted and each person should be evaluated on their own merits.

I guess that a lot of this has to do with my position as an officer.  Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that get caught up in something that their friends are doing.  I've had to charge many people with "technical" crimes.  For example - driver's got weed, gets stopped by the police.  He quickly throws the weed under the passenger side seat, where his friend is sitting.  Car ends up being searched and the weed is found - and unless the driver confesses, the passenger gets charged because under case law, the passnger is in "constructive possesion" of the weed.  Even if the officer "knows" that the driver is the one that had the weed (say two prior arrests for weed and more criminal record vs. the passenger is on the way home from work, no priors, and caught a ride with the driver).  And this is just an example.  ** This example is a synopsis only - if you want to discuss the valdity, PM me.  I do not want to debate law on the board.**

I know that many arrests that I have made have been people that just made a bad decsion - I knew that from the get go.  But, I still had to do my job.  But CAP is not LE, we can make decisions about people, that want to help the community for whatever reason, to allow them to do so and be productive members of CAP as well.

[Gunner C]

You are incorrect.  A court martial is a federal conviction. One may have the sentence suspended, but it's still a felony.  I have a good friend and former teammate who just retired with a court martial conviction.  He got 3 months hard time, reduction to E-1, and forfeiture of pay.  He still doesn't have his civil rights back.  In order to have them restored, he has to petition a federal judge.  I have another friend who refused to take a urine test after the commander took his picture as a joke.  $2500 (no jail time) and a federal conviction record.

[cap235629]

a service member can request court martial for ANY offense under the UCMJ.  The underlying charge dictates whether or not it is a felony level offense, not just the court of jurisdiction.

[lordmonar]

a service member can request court martial for ANY offense under the UCMJ.  The underlying charge dictates whether or not it is a felony level offense, not just the court of jurisdiction.

Nope....All UCMJ courts martial are federal jurisdictions....and the federal government only has felony charges.

[cap235629]

a service member can request court martial for ANY offense under the UCMJ.  The underlying charge dictates whether or not it is a felony level offense, not just the court of jurisdiction.

Nope....All UCMJ courts martial are federal jurisdictions....and the federal government only has felony charges.

Thats funny, WIWOAD as an MP I processed many a DWI under the UCMJ.  Not a felony and any soldier has the right request a court martial.  I guess I don't know what I am talking about......

[Al Sayre]

a service member can request court martial for ANY offense under the UCMJ.  The underlying charge dictates whether or not it is a felony level offense, not just the court of jurisdiction.

Nope....All UCMJ courts martial are federal jurisdictions....and the federal government only has felony charges.

I got a speeding ticket on Patrick AFB once (as a civilian), that had I contested it I would have had to go to a federal magistrate.  Instead I just paid it... Does that make me a felon?

[Spike]

a service member can request court martial for ANY offense under the UCMJ.  The underlying charge dictates whether or not it is a felony level offense, not just the court of jurisdiction.

Nope....All UCMJ courts martial are federal jurisdictions....and the federal government only has felony charges.

I got a speeding ticket on Patrick AFB once (as a civilian), that had I contested it I would have had to go to a federal magistrate.  Instead I just paid it... Does that make me a felon?

Not at all.  People replying above are confused with the concept that the Federal Government has jurisdiction over the Military (specifically Active Duty members).  Federal Law trumps local and state laws, especially when there is a military station/post/base where thousands of service members live and work.  Now, if a crime is committed off of federal property the US Government may decide to let the local authorities and courts handle it, but they always have the right to prosecute military first. 

Speeding and traffic tickets are federal citations when handed out on federal property.  You will go through the federal court system, UNLESS the military has an agreement with the local magistrate to handle these and forward the results to the Fed. 

All of you service members here.....didn't you ever sit through a JAG briefing when you moved to a new duty station??

High Speed..  I just don't get what you are saying.  Everyone does make "mistakes", I agree.  I do not agree that just because a persons "mistake" was a felony they should have it forgotten and forgiven.  We all know what is right and wrong, and MOST of us live a truthful and honest life.  We don't rob banks, sell crack, steal cars or rape one another.  We all have to live in the law.  It may be easier to do the wrong thing, but you pay the consequences if you do.  Why should I (a person who does what is right) have to think about those that "do wrong"??

So I get that you are OK with a person getting busted for possesion of crack, if only happened once and they have not done it since.  However, we all could carry crack around with us, but we don't.  We made the correct choices, those others did not, and they must suffer for it within the justice system.  I don't agree with all laws, but I still make sure not to break them (illegal drugs being a major one).  Again, everyone knows right from wrong, don't make excuses for their stupidity.   

[Eclipse]

Look at that story above and replace it with something much more benign, maybe tax fraud.  The way the tax code is written it's difficult to determine without fail what deductions are legal, but you want the most refund you are eligible for.  People DO make honest mistakes.  Tax PROFESSIONALS make those same mistakes.  Even the IRS itself has made mistakes.  What if this person hadn't committed a sex crime, but an inadvertent tax crime?  Would he have been a bad member?

Seriously?

People who make "honest mistakes" don't get convicted of felony tax fraud.  Honest mistakes are met with fines, back taxes, and interest payments.

People convicted of felony tax crimes are either gaming the system or outright committing fraud, in either case we don't need them in CAP.

[Eclipse]

a service member can request court martial for ANY offense under the UCMJ.  The underlying charge dictates whether or not it is a felony level offense, not just the court of jurisdiction.

Nope....All UCMJ courts martial are federal jurisdictions....and the federal government only has felony charges.

I got a speeding ticket on Patrick AFB once (as a civilian), that had I contested it I would have had to go to a federal magistrate.  Instead I just paid it... Does that make me a felon?

Speeding at a level in which light is still visible from your vehicle is rarely a felony offense.