Goodbye to an NCO

[sardak]

AFI 36-1004

2.8.1. Civilian Employees. Civilian employees who meet the definition of "employee" under 5 United States Code (U.S.C) 2105 are eligible to receive awards under this subchapter.

2.8.5.1. DoD 1400.25-M, Subsection 451, prohibits awards to individuals or entities in a profit making or commercial relationship with the DoD. Awards may not be created to recognize contractor efforts and contractors are ineligible to participate in Air Force awards program created for Air Force civilian personnel.

7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.

7.2. Eligibility. Non-governmental personnel, groups or organizations ineligible for recognition under previous chapters in this AF Instruction or the military decorations program, may be considered for recognition under this chapter.

Mike

[Shuman 14]

7.2 pretty much defines CAP. (Thanks Mike)

I would submit, for the good of the order, that most CAP missions and/or members could qualify for recognition under:

7.7. Commander's Public Service Award.

7.7.1. Purpose. To recognize service or achievements which contribute significantly to the accomplishment of the mission of an Air Force activity, command, or staff agency.

7.7.2. Eligibility. Citizens of entities (groups, business firms or organizations) not employed by the Department of Air Force, who have assisted with specific achievements, major unit projects or helped a unit reach major milestones, or who have provided support to the base/unit over a set and limited period of time. Service must clearly demonstrate specific examples of how the citizen's dedication and commitment significantly contributed to the improvement of conditions for base personnel, facilities or mission. Air Force policy expressly prohibits recognizing individuals or entities in a commercial or profit making relationship with the DoD (to include contractors) with this award (refer to paragraph 7.2.). A civic leader may only receive this award once every five years. The nomination must contain comments that the services cited were voluntary, performed as a public service, or motivated by patriotism with no implication to remuneration, and that the person recommended had no commercial or profit-making relationship with the Air Force. Examples of achievements include, but are not limited to:

7.7.2.1. Significant achievements which resulted in significant savings of time, manpower, or money to the government.

7.7.2.2. Achievement and effort in the areas of humanitarian efforts, mission impact, unit facilities, and/or support of unit personnel.

7.7.2.3. Personal time and/or resources expended that helped achieve a successful project outcome.

7.7.3. Process. Any Air Force employee may nominate a non-Air Force individual for this award. A one-page written recommendation describing specific accomplishments, with an attached citation. The proposed citation should be written in third person and include organization, installation, dates of the award period for which recommended, and a statement of achievement. Nominations should be completed on the AF IMT 1768, Staff Summary Sheet and describe the specific accomplishments in bullet format, not to exceed one page. The nominations must be submitted at least 60 days before the desired presentation.

7.7.4. Approving Authorities.

7.7.4.1. MAJCOM CC/CV/CL

7.7.4.2. Any commander (colonel and above) and CL or Director equivalent

7.7.4.3. Principal Officials of HQ Staff agencies

7.7.4.4. General officers or SES-level civilians

7.7.5. Award Description. A silver medal, 1-3/8" in diameter, terrestrial globe, grid-lined and charged with the winged logo of the United States Air Force with the inscription "COMMANDER'S PUBLIC SERVICE AWARD" above, and, in the base, two sprigs of laurel. The medal set (Stock #8455-01-540-5289) consists of the medal and lapel pin and is available through the Defense Supply System. Air Force Form 4340, Commander's Public Service Award, will accompany the award; available through AF E-Publishing (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil).

[Eclipse]

I would submit,

Yes, clearly logic, regulations, experience, and common sense notwithstanding, you would submit.

[Shuman 14]

I would submit,

Yes, clearly logic, regulations, experience, and common sense notwithstanding, you would submit.

You just don't like to be proven wrong, do you. 

I just "cited" (if you please) the regulation for you; please explain to me how a CAP member does not qualify?

I my experience the Army's version of the Commander's Award for Public Service is routinely handed out to spouses for their contributions to the Family Support Group.

So if Ms. Jenny can get one for handling the "Cup and Flower Fund" just swell last year... why can't a CAP Officer get one if they qualify for it? 

[Storm Chaser]

I would submit,

Yes, clearly logic, regulations, experience, and common sense notwithstanding, you would submit.

You just don't like to be proven wrong, do you. 

I just "cited" (if you please) the regulation for you; please explain to me how a CAP member does not qualify?

I my experience the Army's version of the Commander's Award for Public Service is routinely handed out to spouses for their contributions to the Family Support Group.

So if Ms. Jenny can get one for handling the "Cup and Flower Fund" just swell last year... why can't a CAP Officer get one if they qualify for it? 

Thank you so much for quoting an Air Force Instruction to us. That clarifies, well, everything. Now all of CAP "problems" are solved. What would CAP do without you? 

[arajca]

I would submit,

Yes, clearly logic, regulations, experience, and common sense notwithstanding, you would submit.

You just don't like to be proven wrong, do you. 

I just "cited" (if you please) the regulation for you; please explain to me how a CAP member does not qualify?

I my experience the Army's version of the Commander's Award for Public Service is routinely handed out to spouses for their contributions to the Family Support Group.

So if Ms. Jenny can get one for handling the "Cup and Flower Fund" just swell last year... why can't a CAP Officer get one if they qualify for it? 

Thank you so much for quoting an Air Force Instruction to us. That clarifies, well, everything. Now all of CAP "problems" are solved. What would CAP do without you? 

Give the discussion was regarding whether CAP members would be eligible for AF Civilian awards, Shuman14 provided an appropriate cite showing an award CAP members COULD be eligible for. Which flies in the face of those who say CAP is not eligible for any AF civilian awards.

[Storm Chaser]

I would submit,

Yes, clearly logic, regulations, experience, and common sense notwithstanding, you would submit.

You just don't like to be proven wrong, do you. 

I just "cited" (if you please) the regulation for you; please explain to me how a CAP member does not qualify?

I my experience the Army's version of the Commander's Award for Public Service is routinely handed out to spouses for their contributions to the Family Support Group.

So if Ms. Jenny can get one for handling the "Cup and Flower Fund" just swell last year... why can't a CAP Officer get one if they qualify for it? 

Thank you so much for quoting an Air Force Instruction to us. That clarifies, well, everything. Now all of CAP "problems" are solved. What would CAP do without you? 

Give the discussion was regarding whether CAP members would be eligible for AF Civilian awards, Shuman14 provided an appropriate cite showing an award CAP members COULD be eligible for. Which flies in the face of those who say CAP is not eligible for any AF civilian awards.

Sure, if the Air Force wants to give CAP members an award under Chapter 7, they probably can. However, it would not be as "civilian employees", which is how this discussion started.

CAP members aren't ever civilian employees, even a little, and it has its own awards and decorations.

It doesn't qualify and doesn't need to.

AFI 36-1004, Chapter 7.

I would suspect that any CAP member could qualify for those awards... if they meet the actual criteria of the awards listed there.

Now, on a side note, reading and quoting a regulation does not make one an expert on that subject, as some may want to believe.

[PHall]

Now, on a side note, reading and quoting a regulation does not make one an expert on that subject, as some may want to believe.

But it does make you a "Barracks Lawyer"!

[Eclipse]

Give the discussion was regarding whether CAP members would be eligible for AF Civilian awards, Shuman14 provided an appropriate cite showing an award CAP members COULD be eligible for. Which flies in the face of those who say CAP is not eligible for any AF civilian awards.

No, he didn't.  Because of this...

Sure, if the Air Force wants to give CAP members an award under Chapter 7, they probably can. However, it would not be as "civilian employees", which is how this discussion started.

You can't cherry pick a couple of sentences and ignore the spirit and intention which is to recognize civilian employees.

[lordmonar]

Give the discussion was regarding whether CAP members would be eligible for AF Civilian awards, Shuman14 provided an appropriate cite showing an award CAP members COULD be eligible for. Which flies in the face of those who say CAP is not eligible for any AF civilian awards.

No, he didn't.  Because of this...

Sure, if the Air Force wants to give CAP members an award under Chapter 7, they probably can. However, it would not be as "civilian employees", which is how this discussion started.

You can't cherry pick a couple of sentences and ignore the spirit and intention which is to recognize civilian employees.

Eclipse....when it comes to CAP regs....argue away.   

When it comes to AFIs....don't go there.

The AFI spells out a program to recognize non-AF civilians, non-contractors personnel and groups who help with the AF mission.

So yes we can get said award.

We just need a MAJCOM commander who gives a rats FPOC.

NOW HERE's THE REAL KICKER.

If some AF GO did award this to some CAP members who saved the day.....and documented it in triplicate.....would they be able to wear it on their CAP uniforms?

[Eclipse]

No.

[Shuman 14]

I would submit,

Yes, clearly logic, regulations, experience, and common sense notwithstanding, you would submit.

You just don't like to be proven wrong, do you. 

I just "cited" (if you please) the regulation for you; please explain to me how a CAP member does not qualify?

I my experience the Army's version of the Commander's Award for Public Service is routinely handed out to spouses for their contributions to the Family Support Group.

So if Ms. Jenny can get one for handling the "Cup and Flower Fund" just swell last year... why can't a CAP Officer get one if they qualify for it? 

Thank you so much for quoting an Air Force Instruction to us. That clarifies, well, everything. Now all of CAP "problems" are solved. What would CAP do without you? 

Glad you're finally starting to recognize my value to the organization! Please let me know if there are anymore problems I can solve for you. 

[Shuman 14]

No.

I believe you are partially mistaken, I will cite for you (if you please).

Per CAP Manual 39-1, Chapter 11

11.2.1.1. US Awards. Federal awards awarded by competent authority may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903.

Per AFI 36-2903, Chapter 4

4.5. Order of Precedence. Arrange ribbons and medals in the order shown in Figure 4.1. Wear the
medal with the highest precedence nearest the lapel on the top row.

Figure 4.1, Block 44

United States Nonmilitary Decorations (See note 3.)

And finally Note 3

... Do not wear these decorations unless you wear US military decorations and service medals. If you wear more than one, arrange them in the order of acceptance. If you wear two or more from the same agency, that agency decides the precedence. Ribbons must be the same size as Air Force ribbons ...

So I would submit to you if a CAP member, while in the preformance of CAP duties, was award a USAF Civilian Decoration under AFI 36-1004 Chapter 7, 7.1 he/she could wear it if said CAP member:

1. Is authorized to wear the USAF Style uniform

and

2. Is prior US Military and has been award at least one US Military medal.

"Thus Endeth The Lesson" 

[Shuman 14]

Give the discussion was regarding whether CAP members would be eligible for AF Civilian awards, Shuman14 provided an appropriate cite showing an award CAP members COULD be eligible for. Which flies in the face of those who say CAP is not eligible for any AF civilian awards.

No, he didn't.  Because of this...

Sure, if the Air Force wants to give CAP members an award under Chapter 7, they probably can. However, it would not be as "civilian employees", which is how this discussion started.

You can't cherry pick a couple of sentences and ignore the spirit and intention which is to recognize civilian employees.

The "spirit and intent" are very clear...

7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.

Chapter 7 has nothing to do with employees, it has everything to do with recognizing the general public, of which CAP and its members are a part of.

Seriously, you called him a cherry picker. 

[Private Investigator]

Now, on a side note, reading and quoting a regulation does not make one an expert on that subject, as some may want to believe.

But it does make you a "Barracks Lawyer"!

Or a "Sea Lawyer" if you are nautically inclined.   

[Shuman 14]

Now, on a side note, reading and quoting a regulation does not make one an expert on that subject, as some may want to believe.

But it does make you a "Barracks Lawyer"!

Or a "Sea Lawyer" if you are nautically inclined.   

[Eclipse]

7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.

Chapter 7 has nothing to do with employees, it has everything to do with recognizing the general public, of which CAP and its members are a part of.

No they are not, when they are serving in their capacity as members, they are no longer the "general public".

[lordmonar]

7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.

Chapter 7 has nothing to do with employees, it has everything to do with recognizing the general public, of which CAP and its members are a part of.

No they are not, when they are serving in their capacity as members, they are no longer the "general public".

Then are we civilian employees or contractors?

[Shuman 14]

7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.

Chapter 7 has nothing to do with employees, it has everything to do with recognizing the general public, of which CAP and its members are a part of.

No they are not, when they are serving in their capacity as members, they are no longer the "general public".

Cite please.

[Shuman 14]

7.1. Purpose. To recognize significant contributions to the DoD by a member of the general public.

Chapter 7 has nothing to do with employees, it has everything to do with recognizing the general public, of which CAP and its members are a part of.

No they are not, when they are serving in their capacity as members, they are no longer the "general public".

Then are we civilian employees or contractors?