Updated CAPR 35-5 released today (11 Aug 14)

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Ah, well, seems like another mechanism to ensure some CAP members never promote beyond Captain.

[abdsp51]

Everything here is different perspectives.  But let's be honest this change will stagnate membership plain and simple.   Members who stagnate will lose the desire to participate and perform.  We can talk about mission, improvising and adapting all day long but lets be real you can't honestly expect people in a volunteer org to keep sucking it up and performing.

[NCRblues]

I see, I love your "fixes" for the issues.

Basically,  you want me to be not only a basic student at RSC but also the director, because according to you the answer is "find someplace cheaper". Ya, ok that will work out great, I will just call up the Region/CC and tell him I am taking over and moving the dates away from the holidays and moving it to a cheaper location. You think they will give me credit for both a student and director at the same time? 

[LSThiker]

I see, I love your "fixes" for the issues.

Basically,  you want me to be not only a basic student at RSC but also the director, because according to you the answer is "find someplace cheaper". Ya, ok that will work out great, I will just call up the Region/CC and tell him I am taking over and moving the dates away from the holidays and moving it to a cheaper location. You think they will give me credit for both a student and director at the same time? 

No where did I say be the director. I said talk with the RSC coordinator.  Those fixes are a combination of things that you can do personally and suggestions for lowering the cost of RSC as a whole. If you are paying $455 for a hotel, look for cheaper options as they exist. If you are close to a guard base, talk with the RSC director about a possible barracks building for other students in the same situation.

Food cost is simple  to lower on an individual basis.

Also, talk with others in the wing that are having the same difficulties in transportation. It may be more economical for 5 people to fit into a van rather than a single car per person.  It may also help reduce the hotel cost having 2 people in a room.  In the end, it may reduce the cost to something affordable for you and the others not able to make it.

Work with local corporations that are looking to give donations.  They can donate to your squadron to help offset the cost of attendance or offset other items that will ultimately help you or your squadron.  Even if you still cannot go to RSC, talk with local corporations about donations for your squadron, especially if you are having a hard time getting over $1000 for a fundraiser.

Some of American's most creative moments came during the Great Depression.

Assuming you are apart of NCR, it looks like NCR is offering/had offered two RSCs for 2014:

One in December hosted by Col Aye and another one  23-28 June (Monday - Saturday) hosted in Minnesota by Lt Col Tom Theis.  the June one appears to solve the problem of the holiday issue.

I do not know anything about Tom Theis, but Col Aye is a great person.  So was her husband before he passed away.  I have worked with her.  She is a great woman that is open to suggestions.  Plus, she is very willing to help people out where she can. 

[MSG Mac]

For several years members of this forum have been complaining about it's too easy to make Field grade andthe quality of those who did achieve it. Now that National HQ's has strengthened the requirements the same people are irate that standards have been raised. While I can empathize with those who missed promotion by a few weeks, I have none for those who have been members for decades and never took advantage of training opportunities and are now saying it's inconvenient to attend the Training. RSCs are held all over the country and there's no requirement to attend the local one. One gentleman commented that his is over the Christmas holiday, there are at least five encampments accommodating 1000+ cadets which are held during the same period-why isn't it a hardship for them? Travel costs-carpool, lodging-BOQ/BEQ. Some companies may actually consider NSC or RSC  as a management course  and pay you to attend.

[lordmonar]

MSG Mac......you are not supposed to remind them that "they asked for it". 
We are supposed to pander to their doom and gloom out look and just give out Lt Col for free.

[Alaric]

For several years members of this forum have been complaining about it's too easy to make Field grade andthe quality of those who did achieve it. Now that National HQ's has strengthened the requirements the same people are irate that standards have been raised. While I can empathize with those who missed promotion by a few weeks, I have none for those who have been members for decades and never took advantage of training opportunities and are now saying it's inconvenient to attend the Training. RSCs are held all over the country and there's no requirement to attend the local one. One gentleman commented that his is over the Christmas holiday, there are at least five encampments accommodating 1000+ cadets which are held during the same period-why isn't it a hardship for them? Travel costs-carpool, lodging-BOQ/BEQ. Some companies may actually consider NSC or RSC  as a management course  and pay you to attend.

Parent and CAP subsidies is why Cadets can go to encampment usually, also most children are out of school then.  I don't know about you but unless your in the education field, Christmas week is not a holiday

[LSThiker]

Parent and CAP subsidies is why Cadets can go to encampment usually, also most children are out of school then.  I don't know about you but unless your in the education field, Christmas week is not a holiday

Well apparently, NCR offers two options:  winter and summer RSCs.

[Storm Chaser]

I feel that I need to answer some of the people who are bashing my choice to walk away. I will try and explain, but I am sure they won't see my point of view.

I have dedicated a huge portion of my life to CAP over the past 15 years. I have spent thousands of hours and dollars, gave up many weekends and weeks as have many of you.

But, to wake up one morning and be told basically " thanks for doing the missions for 15 years, but because you are unable to spend thousands more dollars and can't take a few more weeks off, your stuck for years and years to come" is a slap to my face.

I had aspirations to go higher than just Wing staff, wanted to make a difference and motivate, teach and lead the next generations, but because I am not retired or independently wealthy, I'm SOL.

If CAP is going to restrict promotions this hard, than an online course, or distance learning style RSC/NSC needs to be done up.

I simply do not have the cash flow to make the promotions happen, and I am not one to sit idle for years and years at a time while others who care and know less are able to purchase their promotion.

I still care just as much about that CAP does, but this will stagnate the leadership pool, and don't we already complain about the caliber of some of our leaders? The I don't care attitudes and the I'm better than you because (insert reason here) will just get worse with this.

You all have no idea how much this pains me to basically have to sit on the side lines while the rich kids get to play ball, but I guess I'll put on my other uniform and go to work each day. Maybe when I'm 65 and on SS I can afford all CAP wants out of me... Maybe not by that time either.     

First, let me say that you don't have to explain why you're considering leaving CAP. No one is required to spend their entire life in CAP and members are free to take a break or walk away completely any time they want and for whatever reasons they may have. Walking away doesn't diminish your previous contributions in any way.

For the most part, I agree with your post. But I do have an issue with your statement about "purchasing" promotions. To imply that someone who was able to attend RSC/NSC and complete Level 4/5 has "purchase" their promotion is not only wrong, but disrespectful to those members and their contributions. Why would their contributions be less valuable than yours just because they were able to attend RSC/NSC and you weren't? Please think about that.

I suspect that NHQ will make changes to the current grandfathering to take care of those who were affected by this change... and I agree that they should. I have no issue with those who are upset because they have to do more to get promoted or because the transition was poorly implemented or just want to walk away for whatever reasons. My issue is that we're supposed to be officers and yet some of the comments and attitudes on this board (and I'm not singling out anyone in particular) leave much to be desired and some are even unbecoming of a CAP officer. How can we expect NHQ or the USAF or anyone else to take us seriously with some of the things we post on this board?

[Eclipse]

MSG Mac......you are not supposed to remind them that "they asked for it". 
We are supposed to pander to their doom and gloom out look and just give out Lt Col for free.

They "asked for it" to be changed on a whim with no notice?

Let's talk when you are eligible for Chief and someone decides to change the service requirements on you.
(Of course you'll say it wouldn't matter, which, if true, actually validates my argument.)

Whether or not the tiering is appropriate is separate from the poor implementation.

For the record, if field grade is happening "too fast and too often", it is not the fault of the membership,
it is the fault of the leadership who wants to have things both ways - pass out bling to people with no
business getting it (i.e. special promotions and avoidance of making people sad), while at the same time holding
others to some amorphous "higher standard", not to mention posting people all across the board
on with the clarity and planning of feathers in a windstorm, with more concern for "attendance" then ability.

[lordmonar]

a) Not on a whim.
b) I'll give you the no notice.....but it was in the works for a while and it was not a secret so it is not like they were trying to trick anyone.

I understand the frustration of the bar moving......but you have to admit the bar needed to be moved.   So are you hypocritical enough to say....."the bar needed to be moved....but not for me/us, just everyone who comes after us."

[Eclipse]

...there are at least five encampments accommodating 1000+ cadets which are held during the same period-why isn't it a hardship for them? Travel costs-carpool, lodging-BOQ/BEQ.

Because the average adolescent has >nothing to do< over that period, and some encampments cost under $100.
Few adults get paid time off during that period as another point, and have double their normal daily responsibilities
because of those very holidays (dinners and other activities, etc.).  Mom or dad being gone when everyone is home
is not the same as Cadet Johnny not being there.

Further, being dropped off by mom and dad is not the same as having to take vacation time and flying 1/2 way across the country.
That cadet cost is lodging and meals, all inclusive.

Then there's the fact that it's an expectation that has been on the books since day one.

Want some fun?  Tell a Spaatz candidate, days before he expects to pin, that he'll need another NCSA to be promoted,
and oh, by the way, it's only this specific NCSA that just finished and won't be back for another year, and sets are limited.

Good luck with that.

[Eclipse]

a) Not on a whim.
b) I'll give you the no notice.....but it was in the works for a while and it was not a secret so it is not like they were trying to trick anyone.

I understand the frustration of the bar moving......but you have to admit the bar needed to be moved.   So are you hypocritical enough to say....."the bar needed to be moved....but not for me/us, just everyone who comes after us."

It may not have been a secret >here<, it sure was in most of CAP, which, as is pointed out on a regular basis, doesn't get involved
in this stuff.  We still have members wearing wing patches on shirts, I'd bet 1/3rd of the membership doesn't even know there >is< a new 39-1,
and few members, and far too few commanders ever look at something like 35-5 until they absolutely have to.

Yes, the system has to be changed - COMPREHENSIVELY - not piecemeal, on a whim, and to NO ONE'S GAIN.

As indicated in this thread, the leadership ignored a number of key tenants recommended by the committee that had spent 400 hours
trying to come up with a new plan that made sense.  That is the very definition of "whim".

[Alaric]

a) Not on a whim.
b) I'll give you the no notice.....but it was in the works for a while and it was not a secret so it is not like they were trying to trick anyone.

I understand the frustration of the bar moving......but you have to admit the bar needed to be moved.   So are you hypocritical enough to say....."the bar needed to be moved....but not for me/us, just everyone who comes after us."

I work in regulatory compliance, specifically trade regulations (ITAR and EAR). When these rules are being reformed, the final change notice comes out but it is NOT in effect the day it comes out.  In the case of the ITAR/EAR changes there is a 6 month time period before the new regs go into effect.  This allows business and government time to adapt processes to the new rules.  I don't think anyone is arguing that 35-5 didn't need to change.  All that would have been needed is present the regs with an effective date of XXX days in the future.  This would have allowed people already in the queue to get processed, and others to make plans to get the *new* necessary education.

[Eclipse]

BTW - Alaric called me last night and gave me grief about arguing both sides of the fence on the golf shirt issue,
and it's the same problem here, and a much larger issue in CAP's paradigm.

The simple fact of the matter is that there are valid reasons on both sides, and someone trying to understand it
comprehensively has to see them.

The fail point is picking and choosing one or two pieces and pushing them out because they look like they might
"fix" something without breaking too much else.

Those of us who actually understand the issue realize that CAP is like a game of Jenga, and you can't build things up for an hour,
and then pull our a bottom piece without reinforcing the whole structure.

[Bluelakes 13]

Want some fun?  Tell a Spaatz candidate, days before he expects to pin, that he'll need another NCSA to be promoted,
and oh, by the way, it's only this specific NCSA that just finished and won't be back for another year, and sets are limited.
Good luck with that.

:clap:

[LSThiker]

Want some fun?  Tell a Spaatz candidate, days before he expects to pin, that he'll need another NCSA to be promoted,
and oh, by the way, it's only this specific NCSA that just finished and won't be back for another year, and sets are limited.

Not exactly comparable.  A person going for the Spaatz is under a time crunch of their 21st birthday.  A person going for Level 5 can do it at any time, whether it is 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, or 30 years from now. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Everything here is different perspectives.  But let's be honest this change will stagnate membership plain and simple.   Members who stagnate will lose the desire to participate and perform.  We can talk about mission, improvising and adapting all day long but lets be real you can't honestly expect people in a volunteer org to keep sucking it up and performing.

Especially if said members feel that they are not being recognised for their contributions.  Dispute what one may, but it does not take university level courses in psychology (which I have had) or knowledge of Abraham Mazlow's Hierarchy Of Needs to know that it is innate within human beings to know that they are appreciated and valued for what they do.  I have said this before, but very often I doubt that too many in my unit would notice if I would have decided not to renew this time.  OK, say "transfer to another unit"...but that applies if you have one within driving distance, and being on a fixed income with the price of liquid car gold being what it is, that is just a bit too much Come And Pay for my resources.

We are supposed to pander to their doom and gloom out look and just give out Lt Col for free.

Now who the heck is saying that?

For the record, if field grade is happening "too fast and too often", it is not the fault of the membership, it is the fault of the leadership who wants to have things both ways - pass out bling to people with no business getting it (i.e. special promotions and avoidance of making people sad), while at the same time holding others to some amorphous "higher standard", not to mention posting people all across the board on with the clarity and planning of feathers in a windstorm, with more concern for "attendance" then ability.

Thank you, sir.  This reflects my situation almost 100%.  I know people who were lieutenants when I rejoined in '09 who are now Majors and I cannot promote past Captain.

[JeffDG]

b) I'll give you the no notice.....but it was in the works for a while and it was not a secret so it is not like they were trying to trick anyone.

Um...no, there was plenty of notice.

The "Level for Grade" proposal (ie. removing the stutter-step at 1st Lt) seems to have originated at the November 2012 CSAG meeting (to be precise 647 days before the regulation was issued).  It included significantly more steps to promote, inlcuding a Wing Level Board to become a 2nd Lt.  It was referred to a committee at this time.  That committee delivered an interim report at the May, 2013 CSAG meeting with not notation as to recommendations made in the interim report, but the committee was instructed to report to the next meeting.

At the November 2013 CSAG meeting, the committee delivered a report (reproduced in the minutes of said meeting), and CSAG recommended (by a vote of 7-3) that "CAP/CC form a working group to study revisions to the rank structure and requirements). Their report (17 pages worth) is worth a read.  For example, a Major was expected to be able to "Develop and implement strategic policy above local level" and "Serve successfully as a commander or deputy commander or chief of staff for a unit. For one year".  Additionally, they recommended removing (entirely) grade advancements for Squadron and Group commanders, along with all "Mission Related Skills".   The committee also did significant research into levels and grade of members.  Definitely worth a read, particularly if you think this was done arbitrarily.

Finally, at the May, 2014 CSAG meeting, a final report came forward.  It reflected may of the November recommendations, but not all.  It kept the Level-Grade link (that by this time was years old), and had no phase-in period as proposed.  CSAG considered and amended the proposal to include a TIG grandfather, but considered and rejected other grandfathering proposals.

Put simply, to claim this was done arbitrarily or with no notice is both false and disingenuous.

[FW]

^ Members have been trained to watch E-services for "open comment" periods for draft regulations. Until recently, it was the practice.
If a member is interested in these things, following the CSAG is now a good idea. Comments should be sent up the chain. We need to get used to the new way of doing things.