Updated CAPR 35-5 released today (11 Aug 14)

[Shuman 14]

Sometimes I wonder if the main reason many join CAP is to wear a military-style uniform, awards, badges and grade. Anyone who was committed to the organization before this revision and was enjoying their membership and service in CAP, could still do so now even with the new PD requirements for promotion. What have change with regards to their service? Is getting promoted more important than volunteering and accomplishing the mission?

In any volunteer Service the "paycheck" is the bling (military-style uniform, awards, badges and grade).

Mess anyone's paycheck there will be a case of butt-hurt.

Simple human nature.

Where's the "bling" in organizations such as the ARC, AmeriCorps, Boys and Girls Club, Habitat for Humanity, etc. The list of volunteer organizations is long and the majority of them don't offer "bling" as an incentive.

The certificates they hand out at the end of each year, the "cool" title on the business card, the head-shot picture on their corproate website. Not "bling" per say, but a reward that if taken away would make them butt hurt as well.

[Shuman 14]

Sometimes I wonder if the main reason many join CAP is to wear a military-style uniform, awards, badges and grade. Anyone who was committed to the organization before this revision and was enjoying their membership and service in CAP, could still do so now even with the new PD requirements for promotion. What have change with regards to their service? Is getting promoted more important than volunteering and accomplishing the mission?

In any volunteer Service the "paycheck" is the bling (military-style uniform, awards, badges and grade).

Mess anyone's paycheck there will be a case of butt-hurt.

Simple human nature.

Where's the "bling" in organizations such as the ARC, AmeriCorps, Boys and Girls Club, Habitat for Humanity, etc. The list of volunteer organizations is long and the majority of them don't offer "bling" as an incentive.

And that would be fine too if we gave no blings. As matter of fact in my city there are a variety of volunteer jobs and none has any bling. On the same page an ex police chief that joins the police volunteer patrol does not get any special promotion or title neither, everybody is treated the same way. We treating members differently with special promotions is a big part of the problem, we always fix the non special peoples requirements but do nothing about the "special" ones. If they are really special, then fine. But over half of them can't even use their skill for the good of our mission. I too joined the program for the mission and that is all I will do now, PD is irrelevant and I could care less.

And there may be a Police Reserve down the road in the next town or county that would give a former chief a title/rank for joining them.

Apples and oranges but I see your point.

[Shuman 14]

Sometimes I wonder if the main reason many join CAP is to wear a military-style uniform, awards, badges and grade. Anyone who was committed to the organization before this revision and was enjoying their membership and service in CAP, could still do so now even with the new PD requirements for promotion. What have change with regards to their service? Is getting promoted more important than volunteering and accomplishing the mission?

In any volunteer Service the "paycheck" is the bling (military-style uniform, awards, badges and grade).

Mess anyone's paycheck there will be a case of butt-hurt.

Simple human nature.

Where's the "bling" in organizations such as the ARC, AmeriCorps, Boys and Girls Club, Habitat for Humanity, etc. The list of volunteer organizations is long and the majority of them don't offer "bling" as an incentive.

Most of those examples have different models for their volunteer service.  CAP isn't a "show up on the day and we'll use you" type of organization.  It requires a long-term committed membership to be able to do the missions that we perform.  You can't just show up that day and do some volunteer work.  People regard many of those organizations as something to do if they have an extra day.  "Oh, wouldn't it be cool to help build a habitat house next weekend?"

I agree to an extent. However, I was replying to the comment "In any volunteer Service the "paycheck" is the bling..." That's just not true of every volunteer organization.

However, you have to admit that to a very large extent, it is true about CAP.  Oh, sure, there are members who couldn't care two buckets of swill about rank, bling, or anything else ... but that attitude is NOT shared by the majority of the membership.  (No, I can't cite anything ... I'm speaking from the hip here.) 

Jack

You are correct, sir.

And I think that's the point I was trying to make and it didn't come out right.

[Shuman 14]

Patrick, CAPtalk is an unofficial forum to discuss issues of importance to its subscribers. I can assure you CT is taken seriously by many with influence to change things. As a former AF NCO, you know the importance of the "grapevine". For better or worse,  CT has become that source of information.
In fact, it was this forum's predicessor which was the impotous for the creation of the BoG.

CAP has much to learn, without listening, it won't.

Which is why I post my suggestions here, I know that they are being seen.

Taken seriously... that's another issue altogether.

[Nuke52]

The E-9's are and there are a lot more E-9's than Chiefs in today's Air Force.

Are you sure you are not a Kool-Aid drinker?  That makes no sense at all.  How are there more E-9s than Chiefs in today's USAF?

For someone who portrays himself as having some sort of military connection, this post of yours really makes me wonder...  Are you just pretending to not get it or are you really in that much need of a clue?  No, wait, nevermind--I've read your other posts.  I have my answer.

[Nuke52]

Only 1% of the Air Force total enlisted force holds the rank of CMSgt (E-9). That's quite an accomplishment for those attaining that rank/pay grade. To question the dedication and service of the majority of our top enlisted members is not just disrespectful, but unbecoming of a CAP officer.

Ahh... now I get it.  I see what you did there!  Nice use of (completely contrived) righteous indignation!  Here have another glass--this one's blueberry!

[Nuke52]

He is implying that There is a difference between chiefs and those who get promoted to E-9.
Which in MHO is true.

As to the kool aide drinking comment.   Yes I will support my leaders and the program as written.  In public and voice my concerns up the chain as all leaders should do.
And if that is the worse you can call me.   I'll take that as a complement.

Oops, did I inadvertantly compliment you for telling our valued members to "suck it up, life's not fair"?  How clumsy of me--I instead meant to imply your people/leadership skills aren't quite up to par.  I hope you have more than just that one line to motivate your troops...

[lordmonar]

I got a whole tool box full of motivational aids. I hope drive by sarcasm is not your only tool.

[Nuke52]

I'll take that as "message received." 

Although I disagree with your stated opinion on how CAP treated its valued members in this issue, I do believe that, at the end of the day, you do have CAP's best interest at heart.  Here's to a CAP future where the organization eschews ill-conceived knee-jerk reg changes and instead implements thought-out COAs that properly consider its members before executing those changes...

Cheers.

[LSThiker]

For someone who portrays himself as having some sort of military connection, this post of yours really makes me wonder...  Are you just pretending to not get it or are you really in that much need of a clue?  No, wait, nevermind--I've read your other posts.  I have my answer.

Eh, I have heard better.

[Storm Chaser]

Only 1% of the Air Force total enlisted force holds the rank of CMSgt (E-9). That's quite an accomplishment for those attaining that rank/pay grade. To question the dedication and service of the majority of our top enlisted members is not just disrespectful, but unbecoming of a CAP officer.

Ahh... now I get it.  I see what you did there!  Nice use of (completely contrived) righteous indignation!  Here have another glass--this one's blueberry!

Thanks, but I prefer cranberry, 100% real juice.

[NCRblues]

I feel that I need to answer some of the people who are bashing my choice to walk away. I will try and explain, but I am sure they won't see my point of view.

I have dedicated a huge portion of my life to CAP over the past 15 years. I have spent thousands of hours and dollars, gave up many weekends and weeks as have many of you.

But, to wake up one morning and be told basically " thanks for doing the missions for 15 years, but because you are unable to spend thousands more dollars and can't take a few more weeks off, your stuck for years and years to come" is a slap to my face.

I had aspirations to go higher than just Wing staff, wanted to make a difference and motivate, teach and lead the next generations, but because I am not retired or independently wealthy, I'm SOL.

If CAP is going to restrict promotions this hard, than an online course, or distance learning style RSC/NSC needs to be done up.

I simply do not have the cash flow to make the promotions happen, and I am not one to sit idle for years and years at a time while others who care and know less are able to purchase their promotion.

I still care just as much about that CAP does, but this will stagnate the leadership pool, and don't we already complain about the caliber of some of our leaders? The I don't care attitudes and the I'm better than you because (insert reason here) will just get worse with this.

You all have no idea how much this pains me to basically have to sit on the side lines while the rich kids get to play ball, but I guess I'll put on my other uniform and go to work each day. Maybe when I'm 65 and on SS I can afford all CAP wants out of me... Maybe not by that time either.     

[vento]

.....
If CAP is going to restrict promotions this hard, than an online course, or distance learning style RSC/NSC needs to be done up.
.....

I was thinking along the same line. Networking and expanding the view is a big part of RSC/NSC, but it is just not feasible for many of us to leave our day job and spend a week somewhere else.

If the course is offered online (like OBC) and also mandate a two days course in person over weekends (like SLS and CLC), then it is a lot more approachable for most of us. We will still have to spend money but the impact on lost income is much less and therefore making it a lot easier to swallow.

[Alaric]

I feel that I need to answer some of the people who are bashing my choice to walk away. I will try and explain, but I am sure they won't see my point of view.

I have dedicated a huge portion of my life to CAP over the past 15 years. I have spent thousands of hours and dollars, gave up many weekends and weeks as have many of you.

But, to wake up one morning and be told basically " thanks for doing the missions for 15 years, but because you are unable to spend thousands more dollars and can't take a few more weeks off, your stuck for years and years to come" is a slap to my face.

I had aspirations to go higher than just Wing staff, wanted to make a difference and motivate, teach and lead the next generations, but because I am not retired or independently wealthy, I'm SOL.

If CAP is going to restrict promotions this hard, than an online course, or distance learning style RSC/NSC needs to be done up.

I simply do not have the cash flow to make the promotions happen, and I am not one to sit idle for years and years at a time while others who care and know less are able to purchase their promotion.

I still care just as much about that CAP does, but this will stagnate the leadership pool, and don't we already complain about the caliber of some of our leaders? The I don't care attitudes and the I'm better than you because (insert reason here) will just get worse with this.

You all have no idea how much this pains me to basically have to sit on the side lines while the rich kids get to play ball, but I guess I'll put on my other uniform and go to work each day. Maybe when I'm 65 and on SS I can afford all CAP wants out of me... Maybe not by that time either.     

Just curious what is it you want to do that you can't do without a promotion?  I was on Wing Staff (albeit.as a deputy) when I was a first lieutenant.  Is there a restriction in your wing?

[Ed Bos]

I see a lot of complaining about a lack of opportunities to promote causing some to contemplate ending their CAP careers.

My 2 cents:

1) You don't need to promote to a higher rank to hold most positions. Specialty Track training is almost always sufficient.

2) You don't need to have a Bachelors degree to promote. You do need it to take the USAF Professional Military Education alternatives, but those are alternative to CAP's training (which doesn't require the degree).

3) You don't need to be rich to attend CAP training. Some courses have fees. You can always attempt fundraising at your unit or wing to defer costs before crying out how expensive training is.

4) Distance learning is not the same as attending in-residence course, and these courses are good, and offered at a reasonable cost, reasonably timely. To change the way we deliver the in-residence courses would be detrimental to those course, IMHO. To transition to Distance Learning would be to lose a lot in terms of networking and collaboration. Not to mention, developing such courses is a pretty big undertaking that I haven't seen anyone complaining offer to assist with (did I miss it somewhere?).

I earned my Level V, and I am still continuing to pursue professional development opportunities that I can find. I hope that they will make me a better-rounded and more capable CAP officer. I appreciate the rank that comes with them, but that's secondary as far as the mission is concerned.

TL:DR - There's a lot of complaining and not a lot of solution-seeking. Improvise, adapt, overcome, and you will be fine.

[Eclipse]

You don't need grade for >anything<, you don't need PD for >anything<.

Then.

Why.

Does.

CAP.

Have.

It?

[lordmonar]

You don't need grade for >anything<, you don't need PD for >anything<.

Then.

Why.

Does.

CAP.

Have.

It?

it is one of the things they are going to fix in the next few years. 

[NCRblues]

I see a lot of complaining about a lack of opportunities to promote causing some to contemplate ending their CAP careers.

My 2 cents:

1) You don't need to promote to a higher rank to hold most positions. Specialty Track training is almost always sufficient.

2) You don't need to have a Bachelors degree to promote. You do need it to take the USAF Professional Military Education alternatives, but those are alternative to CAP's training (which doesn't require the degree).

3) You don't need to be rich to attend CAP training. Some courses have fees. You can always attempt fundraising at your unit or wing to defer costs before crying out how expensive training is.

4) Distance learning is not the same as attending in-residence course, and these courses are good, and offered at a reasonable cost, reasonably timely. To change the way we deliver the in-residence courses would be detrimental to those course, IMHO. To transition to Distance Learning would be to lose a lot in terms of networking and collaboration. Not to mention, developing such courses is a pretty big undertaking that I haven't seen anyone complaining offer to assist with (did I miss it somewhere?).

I earned my Level V, and I am still to pursue professional development opportunities that I can find. I hope that they will make me a better-rounded and more capable CAP officer. I appreciate the rank that comes with them, but that's secondary as far as the mission is concerned.

TL:DR - There's a lot of complaining and not a lot of solution-seeking. Improvise, adapt, overcome, and you will be fine.

#1. Oh come on, sure you do. Lets be very honest now, if you are selecting a staff slot and have to pick between 2 members with the same training and experience but one is a topped out Captain and one is a Lt. Col you are going to pick the Lt. Col 9 times out of 10. Grade means something no matter how hard we pretend on here that it does not.

#2. Nope, just to be the Nat/CC. But if you are unable to attend RSC/NSC due to cost restrictions than the only other option is the AF courses or using PME (if you have that).

#3. You do have to be able to afford the training. RSC is NOT cheap. NSC is NOT cheap. So, lets figure my regions staff college cost shall we?

150 $ for the fee to attend, 65$ a night for a room x 7 days = 455$, 3 meals a day at 10$ a meal = 210$, transport to and from (for me that is 2 and half states away with my small car at 35$ per tank) is 140$ giving me a grand total of 955$. OH YA, not to mention that I have to get off work by using my small amount of vacation or sick days, because I am not wealthy and must work for a living. 

Fundraising at my unit and Wing? That is so funny. No unit in my Wing or even the Wing itself has seen a fundraiser that got almost 1000$ for the entire time I have been in CAP. Then, which lucky topped out Captain in the Wing gets the Money? GOBN will just be all over that one.

#4. My RSC is offered the from the day after xmas to the day after new years, timely? I think not. Reasonable cost? I do not think so, but YMMV. Networking and collaboration? Everyone talks about this, but I have yet to see anything grand come about. My Region is facing the same issues it was 15 years ago, if not more with the lack of ES missions now days. If RSC and NSC is supposed to produce the doers and shakers, where are they? I have yet to hear anything ground breaking come out of a RSC.

I am not even sure how this regulation is going to work. Is this 60,000 or so member organization supposed to fight over who gets one of the limited slots for NSC a year? NSC is going to have to be expanded or we will starve of Lt. Cols. (hey, maybe that is the original idea)

I am happy you got to achieve level V. I appreciate the time and energy you have put into CAP, but just because I can not afford to take weeks off and spend thousands of dollars I do not have should not mean I should become a second class member. I have sacrificed a lot of time and energy when I can to include Wing staff and NCSA staff, along with local squadron staffing.

I would LOVE to help set up a distance learning program for RSC, love love love to. No one has asked this lowly Captain for that help yet (oh look, rank is important in deciding who gets neat committees as well)

[Майор Хаткевич]

Besides everything Eclipse said...

1) You don't need to promote to a higher rank to hold most positions. Specialty Track training is almost always sufficient.

Agreed.

2) You don't need to have a Bachelors degree to promote. You do need it to take the USAF Professional Military Education alternatives, but those are alternative to CAP's training (which doesn't require the degree).

So...either my $108K degree or a few K on classes that I don't want to spend money on.

3) You don't need to be rich to attend CAP training. Some courses have fees. You can always attempt fundraising at your unit or wing to defer costs before crying out how expensive training is.

Seriously?

4) Distance learning is not the same as attending in-residence course, and these courses are good, and offered at a reasonable cost, reasonably timely. To change the way we deliver the in-residence courses would be detrimental to those course, IMHO. To transition to Distance Learning would be to lose a lot in terms of networking and collaboration. Not to mention, developing such courses is a pretty big undertaking that I haven't seen anyone complaining offer to assist with (did I miss it somewhere?).

Been to a wing conference? Pretty useless. I think OBC was more helpful.

I earned my Level V, and I am still continuing to pursue professional development opportunities that I can find. I hope that they will make me a better-rounded and more capable CAP officer. I appreciate the rank that comes with them, but that's secondary as far as the mission is concerned.

Good for you! But many with a goal in mind now don't have that to look forward to. Things change, and sometimes it's detrimental. Lets look at it this way, it's the NATIONAL STAFF College. If I'm going to be a Squadron/Group/Wing level staffer, why do I need it? Keep it for those who want it, but remove it from Level V.

TL:DR - There's a lot of complaining and not a lot of solution-seeking. Improvise, adapt, overcome, and you will be fine.

People suggested online courses...you said they were useless. What's your solution?

[LSThiker]

150 $ for the fee to attend, 65$ a night for a room x 7 days = 455$, 3 meals a day at 10$ a meal = 210$, transport to and from (for me that is 2 and half states away with my small car at 35$ per tank) is 140$ giving me a grand total of 955$.

Why is it Senior Members are still opposed to sleeping in barracks for an RSC.  There are numerous National Guard bases throughout this country that offer barracks buildings at a price of $20-$30 a night which can house 20 individuals.  Before any one says, can you imagine having to live with that sleeping snoring fat/fuzzy.  Yeah been there done that with an open bay building that housed 300 Soldiers that had 24 hour operations for 6 months.  If that does not work, BEQs are usually $34 a night.  Lastly, check about extended stay hotels. I have stayed in a few where the entire week is $210 plus you get a small stove.  If your region is hosting the RSC at a place where you have to spend $455 for sleeping, talk with your RSC coordinator to see if there is a better location.  .

Also, $10 a meal?  There is another simple way of reducing the cost.  Stop by a Randall's, Kroger, HEB, Hy-Vee and pick up some food.  I could easily find food that would cost me $10 a whole day.  If I really thought about it, I could probably feed myself with less than $70 for the whole week with little sacrifice of comfort.     

OH YA, not to mention that I have to get off work by using my small amount of vacation or sick days, because I am not wealthy and must work for a living.

You and 95% of Americans are in the same boat. 

Fundraising at my unit and Wing? That is so funny. No unit in my Wing or even the Wing itself has seen a fundraiser that got almost 1000$ for the entire time I have been in CAP. Then, which lucky topped out Captain in the Wing gets the Money? GOBN will just be all over that one.

If your squadron does a fundraiser and some other Captain in the Wing gets the money, then your wing has a serious issue.  Also, really no unit in your wing has gotten over $1000? 

I used to walk into Wal-Mart each year and fill out the forms for their charitable donations  Each year I received $1000 for my squadron.  Even today, the Wally World next to my house has a wall with donations.  Not one is under $750.  The Target is the same, but they are at $500.  Our local McDonalds has a number of donations, but they do not advertise the amount.  Our squadron would receive another good chunk of money from United Way. 

Also, look into grant money.  Again, places like Wal-Mart and Target offer small grants for non-profits.  Other local agencies might offer grant money that can be applied to the cadets, especially if they can be considered high-risk group.  Do not forget about national groups as well. 

For something non-CAP, I wrote a small grant to my state's public health department.  I was surprised to receive $5000 in funding.  When I talked with the group, I was shocked to find out they only gave 75% of their grant money away as not enough people had applied.  That was not that long ago. 

I would LOVE to help set up a distance learning program for RSC, love love love to. No one has asked this lowly Captain for that help yet (oh look, rank is important in deciding who gets neat committees as well)

Not necessarily pertaining to this conversation, but why does everyone say "well no one has me for that help yet"?  That is why we network.  No one is going to ask you unless you have a name or reputation.  No one at my university is going to ask me to serve on a university committee without the administration knowing who I am.  So I would suggest practicing your elevator speech.  I assume you have an elevator speech already prepared right?

As far as rank being important: 

The Historian of the Year was a 1st Lt that had just joined CAP.  How did he get onto a national committee?

"Though he had just joined CAP, Lt Gopperton agreed to take on the job of Wing Historian and, in less than one month, had researched and written a report chronicling the Wyoming Wing's annual activities. He was one of four members nationwide to serve on the review boards to revise CAP Pamphlet 5 aand CAP Pamphlet 6, which were instrumental in creating the historian specialty track.