Updated CAPR 35-5 released today (11 Aug 14)

[Eclipse]

Most likely because the USAF wants college degrees as part the education requirements for CAP Officers.

They clearly do not, since that is not, in any way a requirments for promotion.

That and that they don't want to screw up their education accreditation for their PME courses.

The classes could be offered internally to CAP, without conferring college credit, negating the issue.
If the training is appropriate and important to CAP members in positions of leadership, it should be
available to all of them.  If not, then it should not be viewed as an option.

Considering the curriculum in RSC and NSC, the correspondence course have little relevance to CAP.

[Shuman 14]

Beyond that, I can't fathom how this could possibly have encompassed 400 hours of work.

Thank you for the effort, but this just made things worse.

A bit condescending there.

He excels at condescendence actually. 

[Shuman 14]

The fact that they still have advanced promotions for medical officers who cannot practice medicine proves logic was not at work here.  Much like having aircrew wings before updating the regulations which would allow their issuance.

Spot on.

Pilots who never fly an hour for CAP, HSOs not allowed to do used their skills, military officers with zero relevent experience,
etc., etc.

You cannot fix this piecemeal.

You always seem to take shots at prior military... why is that? 

[Shuman 14]

Wait till they change the requirements for wing and region commanders to have a bachelors degree before appointments. Then an Associate's degree to be a 2d Lt.

You know, I suggested something to that effect several months a go... and was told that would never happen.

Funny how time can change things.

[Eclipse]

Why are USAF instructor important for teaching CAP officers to lead CAP volunteers in CAP operations?

How is their experience relevent to the actual curriculum being taught?

This idea that somehow people in the military are more capable then CAP's own people in
teaching relevent lessons continues to confound me - more affectation instead of performance.

Having experienced successful wing, region, and nation commanders and staff should
have a lot more value then an O-6 who is not in CAP but happens to be assigned to Maxwell.

As we've tried to impart time and again, leading inconsistently trained, diversely motivated volunteers who,
on some level always, feel they are doing you a favor just being there, is not the same as leading people
consistently trained, aptitudinally vetted, and contractually obligated to follow your orders.
to follow your directions.

[Eclipse]

You always seem to take shots at prior military... why is that? 

There is no "shot" there.  Just because someone was in the military, does not mean they necessarily have any skills
relevent to CAP at a level that would mandate advanced promotion.

I've seen time and again successful company grade and above military commanders fail because they think
CAP is "military lite".  Walking in the door they think their grade and former postings are relevent in
doing SAR planning or running a CAP unit.  They find they aren't, and then get resentful about
CAP's lack of discipline and proper training, etc.

[Shuman 14]

I know this has been discussed ad Nausem in other threads.  However, if they are worried about too many Field Grade officers they should create a realistic promotion system that doesn't need to be so strongly rigid to the point of being strictly associated with Command Positions.

There are promotion and Professional development options for members that have no desire for Command or Senior Staff.  Bring in Warrant Officer and Enlisted grades.  You can have members that promote automatically up through a Technical Sergeant at Master Sergeant is becomes a little more competitive.  If there is a Specialty that needs specific demonstrable leadership maybe a Warrant Officer is more appropriate.  Those who are in the organization for at least a year can take a Correspondence course pertaining a more in depth look at Regulations, Policies, Missions, Leadership, etc (more substantial than OBC) and can be slotted into a Officer position.

It would be a huge cultural shift for our agency but it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

:clap:

[Shuman 14]

Most likely because the USAF wants college degrees as part the education requirements for CAP Officers.

They clearly do not, since that is not, in any way a requirments for promotion.

That and that they don't want to screw up their education accreditation for their PME courses.

The classes could be offered internally to CAP, without conferring college credit, negating the issue.
If the training is appropriate and important to CAP members in positions of leadership, it should be
available to all of them.  If not, then it should not be viewed as an option.

Considering the curriculum in RSC and NSC, the correspondence course have little relevance to CAP.

After reading thru this thread it is clear that to get promoted beyond Captain you must either:

A. Have surplus capital to afford to go to the additional conferences.

or

B. Have the college education requirements to take the alternative USAF PME courses.

(I'll also point out that those with college educations tend to also have the "surplus capital" because those with degrees tend, on average, to make more money over their lifetimes than those without.)

As to your second point, CAP developing a Distance Learning program to cover these PD requirements, I can't say that would be a terrible idea. In fact you might be able to partner with a university/college, like FEMA's EMI does, to get some college credits for completing the DL-PD requirements.

[LSThiker]

Why are USAF instructor important for teaching CAP officers to lead CAP volunteers in CAP operations?

How is their experience relevent to the actual curriculum being taught?

Because having a person such as Dr. John Kline (do not know if he is still there) teach communication and effective speaking might be useful as he has 30+ years post-graduate training in both corporate and military settings. 

There is nothing with having a diversity of instructors. 

[Garibaldi]

You always seem to take shots at prior military... why is that? 

There is no "shot" there.  Just because someone was in the military, does not mean they necessarily have any skills
relevent to CAP at a level that would mandate advanced promotion.

I've seen time and again successful company grade and above military commanders fail because they think
CAP is "military lite".  Walking in the door they think their grade and former postings are relevent in
doing SAR planning or running a CAP unit.  They find they aren't, and then get resentful about
CAP's lack of discipline and proper training, etc.

I've seen quite a few former or retired military who come in with unrealistic expectations regarding what CAP is. They leave after 6 months or so. There are a few who recognize what is expected of them and are able to navigate around. Most of these are pilots who have no use for PD or promotions past their current/retired grade. Some even make it as squadron commanders and even they realize that command of a Navy squadron or an Army company has little to do with the day to day running of a CAP unit. Some of the skills transfer, but the vast majority of military experience, outside of knowing how to wear a uniform and customs and courtesies, do not.

[Shuman 14]

Why are USAF instructor important for teaching CAP officers to lead CAP volunteers in CAP operations?

How is their experience relevent to the actual curriculum being taught?

This idea that somehow people in the military are more capable then CAP's own people in
teaching relevent lessons continues to confound me - more affectation instead of performance.

Having experienced successful wing, region, and nation commanders and staff should
have a lot more value then an O-6 who is not in CAP but happens to be assigned to Maxwell.

As we've tried to impart time and again, leading inconsistently trained, diversely motivated volunteers who,
on some level always, feel they are doing you a favor just being there, is not the same as leading people
consistently trained, aptitudinally vetted, and contractually obligated to follow your orders.
to follow your directions.

You do understand that CAP is the auxiliary of the United States Air Force, a branch of the Military don't you?

To insist that Military rank/leadership is irrelevent make you appear intentionally obtuse.

[Eclipse]

Why are USAF instructor important for teaching CAP officers to lead CAP volunteers in CAP operations?

How is their experience relevent to the actual curriculum being taught?

Because having a person such as Dr. John Kline (do not know if he is still there) teach communication and effective speaking might be useful as he has 30+ years post-graduate training in both corporate and military settings. 

There is nothing with having a diversity of instructors.

Yes, diversity of instructor is good.  Pinning NSC to Maxwell because there are USAF people there
presupposes that they are somehow more capable by that affiliation then people internally or
the good Dr. above, who lives in Oregon.

It was Ned who said that was why it is important to have NSC there.
There's other bases, including non-USAF that could provide the same or better resources,
and lots of motivational speakers and experts who would be wiling to impart their expertise
in managing a volunteer organization.

Say perhaps leaders in the ARC, BSA, even FEMA.

[Shuman 14]

You always seem to take shots at prior military... why is that? 

There is no "shot" there.  Just because someone was in the military, does not mean they necessarily have any skills
relevent to CAP at a level that would mandate advanced promotion.

I've seen time and again successful company grade and above military commanders fail because they think
CAP is "military lite".  Walking in the door they think their grade and former postings are relevent in
doing SAR planning or running a CAP unit.  They find they aren't, and then get resentful about
CAP's lack of discipline and proper training, etc.

I'm glad CAP-USAF disagrees with you. 

[LSThiker]

It was Ned who said that was why it is important to have NSC there.
There's other bases, including non-USAF that could provide the same or better resources,
and lots of motivational speakers and experts who would be wiling to impart their expertise
in managing a volunteer organization.

Say perhaps leaders in the ARC, BSA, even FEMA.

Yes, there are many people nation wide that can be good instructors.  However, the ones that worked at Maxwell AFB were generally free as they worked for USAF.  Getting someone of the same caliber as Dr. Kline might cost you $10,000.  I remember in helping my university organize an event with Former President Clinton, he charged $75,000 for 1 hour of speaking.

Having a speaker from ARC, BSA, or even FEMA may cost you in having to fly that person out, house them, feed them, plus any talking fees (minus FEMA).  So now instead of paying $1,200 for NSC, you end up paying $3500.


You found him in Oregon?  I still find his address listed in Montgomery, AL.     

[Eclipse]

If CAP is incapable of finding qualified people, both internally and externally to speak
and instruct internally, for free, well then maybe things are worse then characterized.
Trying to compare the profit-driven world of academic speakers to a CAP training seminar
just indicates a misunderstanding of both situations.

RSC and NSC is not about building dynamic military commanders or business leaders,
and certainly not from scratch, it is about extending and enhancing existing
experience and training in officers who have already established a proven history, and
trying to instill the understanding of the responsibilities of that level of disconnected management,
not to mention some people skills in dealing with subordinates who have as much, or sometimes
more, knowledge and ability then you do.

Maybe sprinkle in a little real-world project and activity management, and the difference
between a plan, with deliverables, and an idea.

It's supposed to be about bringing adults, with staff and command experience, across the
last mile of the understanding of a scope at the Region or higher, and why that is nothing
like running a unit.

It should be practical, hands-on sessions of real world use in running directorates and
commands.  Details on online systems, negotiating with state level and 3- & 4 letter
federal agencies, and working with donors who write checks with 5+ figures.

[AirDX]

I was a little POed, as I WAS 15 months into the 48 month TIG for LTC.  But I looked at the requirements for level 5: 3 years command or staff (got that plus), course staff or director (I directed an SLS a couple of years ago), NSC or ACSC (ACSC is in progress), and mentor a member through a tech rating (have a couple of those I can point at).  So... all I need to do is finish ACSC in the next 33 months, and I'm good to go under the old TIG.  I'm not feeling too bad.  Look at the PD requirements, maybe you're closer than you think to having them done. 

BTW, I was advanced to Capt based on my pilot ratings, then I did all the Level 2,3,4 PD stuff.  Not all advanced grade placement is evil.

[Eclipse]

I was a little POed, as I WAS 15 months into the 48 month TIG for LTC.  But I looked at the requirements for level 5: 3 years command or staff (got that plus), course staff or director (I directed an SLS a couple of years ago), NSC or ACSC (ACSC is in progress), and mentor a member through a tech rating (have a couple of those I can point at).  So... all I need to do is finish ACSC in the next 33 months, and I'm good to go under the old TIG.  I'm not feeling too bad.  Look at the PD requirements, maybe you're closer than you think to having them done. 

Most members deserving of field grade will find themselves completing the rest of the PD as a matter of course.
They are active in their wing and contribute to the various courses without giving it much thought and
will find they have completed the fairly simple requirements without too much effort.  Frankly the Level V
requirements, other then NSC, are really unit-level things.  For example, how is a wing-level staffer going to
mentor a new member?  Odds are most people get credit for something they did when they were still assigned to a unit.

The issue is the in-residence courses - those become the pinch points due to schedule issues and cost.

If there were alternatives open to all members, there would be much less heartburn.

[LSThiker]

If CAP is incapable of finding qualified people, both internally and externally to speak
and instruct internally, for free, well then maybe things are worse then characterized.

I think they did.  It is called Maxwell AFB.

Details on online systems, negotiating with state level and 3- & 4 letter
federal agencies, and working with donors who write checks with 5+ figures.

And if you want people that are experts in such areas for free, then you need to sprinkle in a little real-world.  If I were an expert on negotiating with federal agencies and donors with 5+ figures, would I rather teach a group of volunteers for free or teach a business group and make $10,000 for 1 hour of speaking?  I know it is tough decision. 

Easier said then done.  I am sure you know how so you could contact NSC and solve the issue with reducing the cost.  So problem solved.

[LSThiker]

For example, how is a wing-level staffer going to
mentor a new member?  Odds are most people get credit for something they did when they were still assigned to a unit.

I can tell you how I did it as a wing staff member.  I called them, talked issues with them.  Visited the unit on a quarterly basis.  Helped them understand the regulations until they were proficient enough they no longer needed my help.  Not difficult in today's age of modern technology.

[Eclipse]

And if you want people that are experts in such areas for free, then you need to sprinkle in a little real-world.  If I were an expert on negotiating with federal agencies and donors with 5+ figures, would I rather teach a group of volunteers for free or teach a business group and make $10,000 for 1 hour of speaking?  I know it is tough decision. 

Hmmm...too bad there is no one internally, somewhere in CAP, who know how to do that, or for that matter military
bases anywhere else but in Ala.

Oh well, status quo it is!