Updated CAPR 35-5 released today (11 Aug 14)

[AirAux]

Jack, it's hard to believe 1991 was more than 20 years ago.  Where has the time gone??

[FW]

Where do we go from here?

How about requirements instead of suggestions?

All the other organizations we look like or aspire to be have those.

I know you would like to see requirements for higher level staff/command positions be firm, and no advanced grade for any reason.  And, in a perfect world, they should.  Do you think we have real problems because of our present process? Do we foster the "GOBN" by allowing for "flexibility" in the system? Do the "suggestions" give us unprepared leaders, or unqualified mission staffers? Do we foster resentments?  Does a mission pilot care what is worn on their shoulders? 

Oh, and by the way, big blue (and all other services) have direct and advanced commissioning programs (I started out as a captain).  I know someone with a PHD who was commissioned as a LT Col.  Things are always more than they appear.  There are reasons for everything...

[Eclipse]

Do you think we have real problems because of our present process?

>YES<

Do we foster the "GOBN" by allowing for "flexibility" in the system?

>YES<

Do the "suggestions" give us unprepared leaders, or unqualified mission staffers?

>YES<

Do we foster resentments?

>YES<

Does a mission pilot care what is worn on their shoulders?

Yes.  Usually around the time those that joined with them and >didn't< get free railroad tracks surpass them.

Oh, and by the way, big blue (and all other services) have direct and advanced commissioning programs (I started out as a captain).  I know someone with a PHD who was commissioned as a LT Col.  Things are always more than they appear.  There are reasons for everything...

I would think that you, of anyone, would know that comparing CAP's grade structure to the way the military handles things is foolish.

However you both went to "salutin' school", a baseline of training CAP doesn't have, and had significant expectations of performance.

[MSG Mac]

Jack,  I didn't think they had Level V 20 years ago, I thought that was relatively new, like in the last 10 years.  Am I wrong on that??  We had Level IV back then, but I think it topped out with that..

I'm glad somebody else chimed in with the date involved.  My GRW is dated 1991, which is more than 20 years ago ... and which comes at the end of the PD program, Level V.

Jack

The SM PD was revamped in 1983. So all the GRWs that you see (with a few rare exceptions) are dated from the National Board when it was enacted-1983 to the present (mine was in 1985 as a Captain). Prior to this you had a 5 level program where the GRW was the 4th step. The highest was the National Commanders Citation which required completion of the Industrial College of the Armed Forces and carried with it appointment to the grade of Lt Col.

[Bluelakes 13]

OK, so did you really have to use me as your example?

Eclipse....you seem to arguing both sides of the issue now.

Yes, I've said that about 4 times.   I agree with the stepping, not the transition.

The average member, with the average service does not have the options, nor the atypical access and activities
you have.  They don't have the option to wake up one day and decide to trade their "irrelevant" metal
for "irrelevant" stripes on a whim, and pencil whip PD because of unrelated external classes.

The average member who is on the fence here, especially in the Major / Lt Col area, has about 10 years in,
strong experience in CAP with good overall effort and initiative.

They have a garage full of SAR gear they have no use for because of the shrinking operational mission.

They have a closet full of uniforms they never wear either because they can't wear them anymore or
because CAP isn't active even at the level it was when they joined, so there's no place to wear them, anyway.

They attend meetings and watch as the number of people in the room gets less and less every year.

They look around their wing as they see units fold every year.

They hear a lot of rhetoric about "new missions" and "renewed involvement", that winds up
never even getting passed the brochure, being far outside CAP's core, or stays locked in the same GOB they have never been in.

Then something like this comes up, they sigh, add it all up, and start spending less time worrying about going
to meetings and more time catching up on American Ninja.  They don't quit right away because of
sunk cost and some feelings of commitment they still feel towards the organization, so they renew, maybe a couple of
times.

People start asking "Where's Jim?"  "Meh, has other stuff to do, etc., etc."

Meanwhile CAP churns something like 30% of new members and most never get to the level that replaces Jim.

Not hurting CAP at all...

[Eclipse]

OK, so did you really have to use me as your example?

Aha - sorry, wasn't pointing at you, tried to just pull a random name from my hat,
but if you get stuck bu this it would certainly make my argument.

Hope you don't...

[LGM30GMCC]

Okay, I have stayed quiet on this topic for quite some time but since they have a new reg out I'm going to comment on it a little more directly.

First I will be using a number of references from the Nov 2013 CSAG meeting minutes. The area that starts talking about this is on page 30 and goes back to the original proposal to increase the requirements and the work that was done there.

I can personally guarantee several things about the committee's work as I was on it:

1) Comments and discussion on this board were considered and discussed. I know this because I read concerns and discussions here and brought up some of the points that were made. Not everything you may have liked or wanted was necessarily included, but your comments were read and considered.

2) The committee was not just a group of old wing commanders and above making decisions way above reality or only from big wings etc. We had quite a mix of experience from larger wings to smaller wings and people from small squadrons up to larger squadrons. Committee members were also Major (Me) through Colonel and ranged in age from 27 to older than that. Some had a little bit of previous experience and one was a current active duty USAF officer who was not representing the USAF but does have some experience with the officer side of the house and PD in the USAF.

3) This was not some half-assed zero-research program. The committee spent close to 400 hrs discussing/researching/considering and creating its final report.

So all that being said.

I) Not everything the committee recommended was adopted. This included the elimination of the VAST majority of special promotions retaining only the advanced ones for Lawyers and Chaplains. Additionally the reverting back to highest grade eligible for former Wing/CC and Legislative Liaison squadron commanders is also in the recommendation, but was not adopted. This was to recognize there is some value in having titles of rank with certain positions. You may not like it, you may not believe it, but it really is true.

The advanced grade for military officers being eliminated was discussed but as is pointed out by the CAP-USAF director
" While it's true the Air Force has authority over the CAP grade structure, the introduction of the NCO Corps and the attention  garnered at the Air Staff will compel a standardized approach between officer and NCO promotion opportunities. " Convincing CAP to shed the advanced promotion for military members may not be as great a challenge (as most aren't former military members), convincing the USAF of that? A lot less likely. It was dropped. Sometimes its best to pick your battles and that is one that really isn't worth fighting at this time. Maybe another day...maybe not.


II) The goal was to start to really change the attitude that promotions are not supposed to be carrots and 'Good job you've done good stuff at this point' but instead 'Hey, we think you are qualified to operate at this next higher level' This would also mean the PD courses could be better tailored to acting at those levels. If you want 'attaboys good job on staff or for this long service' that's what Achievement and up awards are for.

III) Take a look at Table 1 in the recommendation of the committee. That's what the goal was and what PD courses could then be tailored to more adequately go after. Heck, they may still be able to be changed to go after those recommendations a bit better. If you see no value in RSC or NSC or PD, or can't articulate the importance of PD then that is an area to work on.

IV) The 'Life isn't fair someone is going to get screwed' argument was considered as well. The original thought was actually to have the reg go through a comment period but have ZERO grand-father time. You have to make a cut somewhere. The idea of 'well just finish the promotion you're working on!' was kicked around too but how long do we let them do that? You can be working on a promotion for years and years. Tracking that would be a nightmare to begin with. We've seen this sort of requirement shift in the cadet program and it was about as harsh as this current change is. If they can adapt and overcome...and possibly have to learn entirely new material.

The committee was fully aware that people are going to get stuck. One of the members specifically had a dog in that fight because they were not yet a Lt Col and still had several years TIG to burn. So it wasn't just a 'ignore the members we don't remember what it was like' type situation. Absolutely this issue was taken into account, it burns, it bites, but anywhere you draw a line SOMEONE is going to get unhappy.

Right now RSC or equivalent is the requirement for Level IV. It's expensive and long and difficult. Got it...so commanders who want to take care of their people should really look at finding ways of lowering costs. For a 20 person course for 1 week you are looking at a cost of $18,000 (if you include the cost of food/lodging but not transportation) most of which comes out of the pocket of members right now. So get creative in finding ways to find that much money, it's out there.

There are also other courses which are being looked at that could meet the overall objectives of RSC/NSC or perhaps be more specialized (national IG college for example instead of NSC)

At the end of the day there is also this sitting out there:
"CAP members are achieving rank far too quickly and automatically. Too often CAP officer grade is a misleading indication of ability or experience. The general civilian population cannot tell the difference and draws no distinction between CAP officers and Air Force officers"

There is a perception by many there are too many field grade officers and that it doesn't mean anything. There are clearly feelings that Maj and Lt Col will now be 'bought' and yes there is quite a bit of work/effort and sacrifice if you want to get to those highest levels now. If you see absolutely no value to PD at all, and don't want to do any beyond the minimum Level I that's fine. You'll remain a 2d Lt in perpetuity (With some noted exceptions which I already addressed.) If you're then not picked up for opportunities because you don't have the training they are looking for, you really will have no one to truly blame but yourself.

[abdsp51]

So how about that that actively pursued their PD that will now stagnate?  Basically thanks for working in the program but it is just not good enough. 

[Alaric]

Rank in CAP meant nothing last week when it came to operations, and nothing has changed.   CP, ES, and AE will still be done by people who are interested and motivated, regardless of what rank they wear on their shoulders.  Since the regulations are not demoting people who already have rank, regardless of experience, it will take years for this to actually make a difference, and by the time it does it will probably be replaced by new regulations or so few people will be staying in the organization for extended periods it just won't matter.

The fact that they still have advanced promotions for medical officers who cannot practice medicine proves logic was not at work here.  Much like having aircrew wings before updating the regulations which would allow their issuance.

[Eclipse]

There is a perception by many there are too many field grade officers and that it doesn't mean anything.

The former is irrelevant because the latter is 100% true.

II) The goal was to start to really change the attitude that promotions are not supposed to be carrots and 'Good job you've done good stuff at this point' but instead 'Hey, we think you are qualified to operate at this next higher level' This would also mean the PD courses could be better tailored to acting at those levels. If you want 'attaboys good job on staff or for this long service' that's what Achievement and up awards are for.

Wasted effort until grade confers authority, or that the PD has to be completed >before< you get the cool job.  Literally not possible in
a paradigm where people beg you to take a job you don't want and aren't qualified to do anyway. 

Fix >that< and forget about grade.

Two other points - the committee may have had people affected, but the decision makers, the ones who chose
not to adopt all the recommendations, likely didn't, which is the real issue.

Beyond that, I can't fathom how this could possibly have encompassed 400 hours of work.

Thank you for the effort, but this just made things worse.

[LSThiker]

Beyond that, I can't fathom how this could possibly have encompassed 400 hours of work.

Thank you for the effort, but this just made things worse.

A bit condescending there.

[Eclipse]

The fact that they still have advanced promotions for medical officers who cannot practice medicine proves logic was not at work here.  Much like having aircrew wings before updating the regulations which would allow their issuance.

Spot on.

Pilots who never fly an hour for CAP, HSOs not allowed to do used their skills, military officers with zero relevent experience,
etc., etc.

You cannot fix this piecemeal.

[Eclipse]

Beyond that, I can't fathom how this could possibly have encompassed 400 hours of work.

Thank you for the effort, but this just made things worse.

A bit condescending there.

Maybe.  I don't like to degenerate good faith effort by well-intentioned people, but it is what it is.

I would imagine there were some pretty "direct" conversations when the powers didn't adopted
the whole recommendation, but instead picked and chose to avoid the majority of uncomfortable conversations.

As as the tag says "effort does not equal results".

The end of the effort was a "solution" that solves not a single problem, but makes things less
fun for those involved.

[LSThiker]

Wasted effort until grade confers authority, or that the PD has to be completed >before< you get the cool job.  Literally not possible in
a paradigm where people beg you to take a job you don't want and aren't qualified to do anyway. 

Fix >that< and forget about grade.

Since you keep bringing this up, what is your solution? 

[Eclipse]

Wasted effort until grade confers authority, or that the PD has to be completed >before< you get the cool job.  Literally not possible in
a paradigm where people beg you to take a job you don't want and aren't qualified to do anyway. 

Fix >that< and forget about grade.

Since you keep bringing this up, what is your solution?

You spread the pain.

The simplest solution is that only Commanders hold any grade and only while in office.

If that is too hard...

Eliminate all special promotions.

Require all members to normalize their PD within 1-2 years or revert to whatever grade their PD qualifies for.

Grade confers actual authority, can only be achieved when billets are open, and there is no "return to the squadron" option
for members.  It's "up and out".  Want Oaks?  Assume the requisite mantel and risk losing them if you are not suited to the task.

No one says you can't stay in a unit your whole life, but once you ascend, you can't be assigned at a lower level, ever. 
You can always go back and play with your friends, but you stay assigned at the higher level.

No double billeting.  You get a CAP job and work that until you take a different one. No multi-echelon billeting.
You work at the level of your unit of record.

Desperate for a return path?  Then accept demotion to the grade commensurate with whatever staff job you accept
at the lower echelon.  Just like the big boys do it.  No more Lt Col Coffeebringer, because Unit Morale Office is a 1st Lt billet.
His PD badges and decs will speak his experience, and no more question about who's in charge.

NCSAs, encampments, and similar activities can have charters to allow members who wish to participate twice a
year to be assigned to those activities instead of a unit.

Each wing has one operational squadron for those who have no interest in PD or the just want to fly, etc.
They stay SMWOG, the wing Vice Commander is the Commander of record for this charter, and there are no expectations
beyond operational status.  Members participate as they will, or won't.  The SUI is minimal and related only to ops.

NHQ starts concerted recruiting initiatives to fill the spaces the way they should be so that members feel free to ascend without
feeling like they are leaving their unit in a lurch.

Done.

[LSThiker]

Require all members to normalize their PD within 1-2 years or revert to whatever grade their PD qualifies for.

Why bother about PD?  Why would anyone need a master rating or a senior rating?

Grade confers actual authority, can only be achieved when billets are open, and there is no "return to the squadron" option
for members.  It's "up and out".  Want Oaks?  Assume the requisite mantel and risk losing them if you are not suited to the task.

No one says you can't stay in a unit your whole life, but once you ascend, you can't be assigned at a lower level, ever. 
You can always go back and play with your friends, but you stay assigned at the higher level.

So why bother going to Wing or higher headquarters?

No double billeting.  You get a CAP job and work that until you take a different one. No multi-echelon billeting.
You work at the level of your unit of record.

So who does the work of vacant positions?  Surely the commander cannot because that would be double billeting?  Why even become a commander when I could just go to the operational unit and not have to worry about all the other work.

NCSAs, encampments, and similar activities can have charters to allow members who wish to participate twice a
year to be assigned to those activities instead of a unit.

So why bother being assigned to a unit in the first place then?

Each wing has one operational squadron for those who have no interest in PD or the just want to fly, etc.
They stay SMWOG, the wing Vice Commander is the Commander of record for this charter, and there are no expectations
beyond operational status.  Members participate as they will, or won't.

So why bother even having a cadet program then?  I mean, if I can be assigned to that squadron and just fly or do just GT, then who cares about PD or the cadet program?  So who is going to take care of the administrative work?  Logistics?  Safety? 


I think your "solution" has done far more harm to the organization than anything. 

[Eclipse]

The answer to every question is in my message, if you read it, especially the second from last sentence.

CAP is in the position it is in because it has propagated an environment of lax adherence to the regulations
in favor or retention, to the ultimate detriment of all involved.  It is churning at a 20-40% rate, depending
on how you do the math, because people join with an assumption and promises, and what they find is
a shell of the brochure.  There are pockets of anecdotal success, but in most cases those people involved
spend as much time fighting inertia and naysayers as they do executing the mission.

You do PD because you >want< the cool job and it requires PD.  You don't get the cool job until your training
is done.  No more of this SMWOG Wing-level director of finance nonsesne with a wet ID card
who hasn't a clue about CAP and wrecks havoc before getting the wing frozen and quitting in 6 months.

You aspire to command because you want to command, have the training, experience, and the initiative.
Not just because you were in the bathroom when they handed out assignments.
Commanders command, their job is oversight and management, not wrench turning.

My plan cause chaos and attrition in year 1-2, and fixes CAP by year three.  It's also not a "plan" per se,
it's an off-cuff response, however every initiaitive indicated actually fixes a real problem or answers a real question.
Instead of stirring the pot to no one's advantage.

Everyone is on the same page, people can do what they want to in CAP, and no one is confused about
who's in charge or what grade means.

[FW]

Wasted effort until grade confers authority, or that the PD has to be completed >before< you get the cool job.  Literally not possible in
a paradigm where people beg you to take a job you don't want and aren't qualified to do anyway. 

Fix >that< and forget about grade.

Since you keep bringing this up, what is your solution?

You spread the pain.

The simplest solution is that only Commanders hold any grade and only while in office.

If that is too hard...

Eliminate all special promotions.

Require all members to normalize their PD within 1-2 years or revert to whatever grade their PD qualifies for.

Grade confers actual authority, can only be achieved when billets are open, and there is no "return to the squadron" option
for members.  It's "up and out".  Want Oaks?  Assume the requisite mantel and risk losing them if you are not suited to the task.

No one says you can't stay in a unit your whole life, but once you ascend, you can't be assigned at a lower level, ever. 
You can always go back and play with your friends, but you stay assigned at the higher level.

No double billeting.  You get a CAP job and work that until you take a different one. No multi-echelon billeting.
You work at the level of your unit of record.

Desperate for a return path?  Then accept demotion to the grade commensurate with whatever staff job you accept
at the lower echelon.  Just like the big boys do it.  No more Lt Col Coffeebringer, because Unit Morale Office is a 1st Lt billet.
His PD badges and decs will speak his experience, and no more question about who's in charge.

NCSAs, encampments, and similar activities can have charters to allow members who wish to participate twice a
year to be assigned to those activities instead of a unit.

Each wing has one operational squadron for those who have no interest in PD or the just want to fly, etc.
They stay SMWOG, the wing Vice Commander is the Commander of record for this charter, and there are no expectations
beyond operational status.  Members participate as they will, or won't.  The SUI is minimal and related only to ops.

NHQ starts concerted recruiting initiatives to fill the spaces the way they should be so that members feel free to ascend without
feeling like they are leaving their unit in a lurch.

Done.

^ if only.....

There is so much contention, we will never get agreement on what is appropriate for grade here.  IMHO, there is absolutely no reason to grant advanced grade to anyone except commanders.  Commanders should be mandated to complete the PD equivilent before their term expires for their grade to be permanent.  As Eclipse states so well, there are plenty of ways we can make grade more meaninful.  Right now, it seems we just rearrainged the desks in the classroom, and added some time before being eligible for promotion, while the certain few can get promoted for any reason a higher commander wants (or, at least, the perception of such). 

While the changes in this regulation are a good start, I would hope our new National Commander would revisit this and make changes which would make more sense.  We really shouldn't be using grade as a recruiting tool or a gift for being a good friend of the "boss".  We have much better carrots than that.

[LSThiker]

You do PD because you >want< the cool job and it requires PD.  You don't get the cool job until your training
is done.  No more of this SMWOG Wing-level director of finance nonsesne with a wet ID card
who hasn't a clue about CAP and wrecks havoc before getting the wing frozen and quitting in 6 months.

You aspire to command because you want to command, have the training, experience, and the initiative.

The key word in all of this is "want". 

As a new member, if you were to say well you can join this unit and be required to complete all of this PD or you join that operational unit and just do ES or fly, you are going to find the vast majority of your wing's population in that operational unit.  If I had the option of just doing ES, I would have joined that unit a long time ago.

Or if you say, well you can either stay at unit finance officer and not have to complete any additional PD or you can spend several hundred or thousand dollars and be the wing finance officer, you will find a lot of your wings and regions without finance officers.  Legal officers, chaplains, safety, etc. 

Or if you tell me, to be a commander you need to have XYZ, then you will find a lot of people not getting XYZ just for the purpose of not being asked to be a commander. 

So again, why bother?

I did not want to be a commander initially.  After the current commander stepped down, I was asked and accepted.  Nor did I want to be a wing historian.  I got asked and accepted.  I later was glad I did accept those positions, but at first, I did not want. 

Or what happens if the only person qualified with XYZ professional development is not fit for command or that wing staff position?  How many commanders are going to say "yeah, he was not really our choice to be wing/region finance officer but he is the only person qualified with XYZ level so what were we to do?"

So I guess "unintended consequences".

[Eclipse]

If you choose to characterize this in the most negative light possible just to make your argument, so be it.

The real bottom line is that if CAP concentrated on recruiting, retention and mission, there would be
more then enough people for everyone to do what they "want" relatively speaking.  The problem
with your responses is that they presupposes the current CAP where there is little choice and few
options when filling staff positions.  Respiration and gravitational attraction are no way to choose people
to run an organization that purports to save lives and mentor youth.

Increased expectations would not work in that environment, and dare I say, CAP will never flourish
or come close to its rhetorical potential if if doesn't accept this.

The change includes the general thread that the majority of members will be "mission-doers" not
administrative staff.  A cadre of members with an MOS and nothing more. Lord(monar) help us, an
actual enlisted corps.  Right now, most members are so focused on running CAP, that they aren't involved in doing CAP.
Rooms and rooms of managers with no one to direct.

Why on earth should someone who joined CAP to do ground SAR be burdened with running
Logistics the first day they walk in?  Let them look for stuff for several years and then they can consider
different challenges.  LIKE THE REAL WORLD.

As we see here on CT, there are many members, perhaps even a majority who are not involved, nor have an interest in
operations, but far too many who have been conferred grade with no meaning, purpose, and without
doing any of the work.  The majority of the membership would >not< flock to the ops-only unit.
Most would welcome the full CAP experience, but for those that don't care.  Fine.  You're now no one's problem
and still a valuable asset.

You would be surprised what people "want" to do when given opportunity and expectation, in
an environment where things are fair and rules are followed.